Technical Complaints about MK9

[evansgambit]

Do not get on MK's case for safe combo starters lol.

Thanks Dude, I just feelt frustrated when faced with the repeated constant spam of one string. Maybe i'm just that bad.

Just have to remind myself that MK is not street fighter, and gotta give them props for redesigning the wheel.

 

[THTB]

lets say you do a reptile dash and then press down 4 but you get the standing 4, you obviously pressed down too early.

That's the problem, though...I've gotten standing 4s when I press down CLEARLY before I even press 4.

 

[leek]

That's the problem, though...I've gotten standing 4s when I press down CLEARLY before I even press 4.

i'm with you. It's just a bug of some sort - happens with cage a lot to me... I'll go for D+1 after F+32 and get standing 1 and eat a punish because I'm freaked out by the unexpected move.

 

[evansgambit]

i'm with you. It's just a bug of some sort - happens with cage a lot to me... I'll go for D+1 after F+32 and get standing 1 and eat a punish because I'm freaked out by the unexpected move.

Sure your thumb isn't pressing F by mistake? I have a big thumb, and its really easy to do that on the PS3 Dualshock.

I swear, I can actually input shortcut with Mileena's roll being, DB+4 and Cage's nut punch being DB+1. This is really annoying, but that's the input system for you. It's like my thumb is P-linking B then D, extremely quick, even though I've only tapped the diagonal DB. Gives inconsistent results at times.

Don't get me started on enhanced moves or throws, I can't consistently do it. My rate is 80% perhaps, which isn't good enough. I know the game's built for pad, but the input leeway for button combinations especially using the shoulder R2, doesn't seem as forgiving. You really have to use the Throw button macro, instead of manual throwing. If only they increased the window just a bit, but then we might see kara throws, kara enhances and kara X-Rays in the game. Hopefully its not so much of a problem on stick.

 

[shura30]

That's the problem, though...I've gotten standing 4s when I press down CLEARLY before I even press 4.

ditto

it happens to forward, back and up input too
it's even more obvious when you look at practice mode's input listing feature

no one mentioned the EX moves glitch where you try to get one (with armor) in between opponent's pokes and your stock goes away without the special

 

[PND_Mustard]

i would quite like it if they shortened the time between hitting the motion for the attack and the button, for example, f,f,4 for a medium bomb, ill dash in try to d4 and a bomb will come out even if i wait, i just feel like its a bit too leniant on the time in general, itd also help out characters with similar issues like mileena, cyber sub etc, (even though i know csz players say they found a way to stop it happening) id like it if it just wasnt a problem alltogether

 

[davidovitch]

i'm with you. It's just a bug of some sort - happens with cage a lot to me... I'll go for D+1 after F+32 and get standing 1 and eat a punish because I'm freaked out by the unexpected move.

Actually I think it could be that even though you may already be holding down, you should not press the attack button until the character has actually started moving down (only after a certain point in the duck animation is the character considered to be actually ducking). So if you are too fast to attack, even though you are already holding down before pressing the attack button, the character is still considered to be standing at the time you press the attack so a standing attack will come out.

I'm not sure if that actually makes sense, though..

 

[Sasuga]

I'm messing with Rain and his bubble into uppercut combo and face this all the time. I'm certain it's not a bug though, it's just the sluggishness of the MK engine. For example, for an instant uppercut to come out, you need to press D+2 simultaneously. If you're holding down before you press 2, you're character might go into duck animation but as davidovitch says, it's still counts as standing.

When fuzzy guarding, you should be in the position you want to block slightly before the actual block frame, right..? This shows how the animation works.

 

[Raidenwins]

Old school SF and Tekken player here, and I can agree with the aforementioned assessment of the throw-breaking mechanic.

I was saying, day 1, that not being able to break a throw while blocking is absolutely absurd, as it creates too many poor incentives in the context of solid play. Also, it negates the viability of straight-up turtling as a playstyle, rendering the game a bit one dimensional, in terms of gameplay texture. The lack of a reversal mechanic (outside of wake-up) also nullifies quite a bit of the intrigue of pressure and footsie.

Throws should be breakable while blocking, but only with a 1+2 universal break. If there's going to be two different breaks, then there needs to be two different animations. There's already a mixup in the throw/low/mid/block/armored-or-invincible-move meta, and thus there is no reason to add to said contrivance by enforcing yet another mixup; it's just asinine. Nevertheless, I have become accustomed to all of these issues, and have made my peace with them a la the Kubler Ross model, lol: Acceptance. *sighs*

I notice that a lot of players here seem to think that adding a reversal mechanic to the game would "turn it into SF", but they're obviously just ignoring the meter, the supers, wake-up attacks, the negative edge, the 2-in-1 system, and the fact that none of those things really give the game any identity other than MK. These elements give the game's meta a few more dimensions, but it remains, nevertheless, MK. What people in this community are essentially saying is: "no, don't deepen my game with tried and true functions from other games even though that's already what the game did".

Pardon me if somebody already mentioned this, but a universal throw break would be a mistake. It would make throws useless because people will be able to break them every time. There should be a 1 break and 2 break but you should be able to do it while blocking and while not blocking. That's how it is in Soul Calibur and it works out quite well. There should also be different animations for the 1 and 2 throws so it's not a total guessing game (ala Tekken).

 

[Helter Skelter]

i think it cant be changed. throws are the only mixup option for characters without low combo hits, if you could tech em while blocking those chars would barely have options to get a hit in at all.

edit: a general thing about complaints: street fighter already exists, we dont need mortal kombat to be street fighter B. the game can be (and is) good in other ways.

Except a good deal of mechanics in this game are taken from Street Fighter and/or other similar games. So why not do it as well as the games this one is imitating?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

i think it cant be changed. throws are the only mixup option for characters without low combo hits, if you could tech em while blocking those chars would barely have options to get a hit in at all.

edit: a general thing about complaints: street fighter already exists, we dont need mortal kombat to be street fighter B. the game can be (and is) good in other ways.

Mix ups arent just high/low/throw. Theres staggers jumps pokes and movement too. The way you put it Cage would have no mixups, but really he has some of the best in the game

 

[16 Bit]

Allowing throws to be broken while blocking would be horrible for Kitana. The game was designed around throw/attack as a mixup. It should not be changed now.

 

[funkdoc]

I'm convinced that a large amount of the MK community hates technical FGs.

Hi, I've placed top 16 at Evo in Super Turbo and GGXX Accent Core and MK9 is hands down my favorite game of the SF4 era. That's a topic for a whole other thread but just saying.

Don't you guys get tired of repeating the same basic bnb combos, safe block strings, d1;d4s and throws? (which you know will work the vast majority of the time, since your opponent has to release block.)

Aside from throws, this applies to a lot of Capcom games as well. How many moves in MK9 are +3 or more on block and can be hitconfirmed into combos? That's what a lot of jabs and shorts are in 3s/CvS2/SF4/etc.. That also means you tend to see a lot of the same block strings, and of course Capcom games are known for dominant medium/heavy pokes which are similar to d4's but more damaging and can sometimes combo into things.

It's a simple, one dimensional, buggy ass game. Can't we admit the truth already?

I think a lot of this "one-dimensional" perception comes more from MK players being bad at anti-air and especially footsies. I think footsies should easily play a stronger role in MK9 than in SF4, as walk speed is faster than people think at first. I bring this up a lot, but this is why I always say Slips taught me more about this game than anyone else - his back and forth movement is straight out of Tekken or CvS2, and he destroyed my Kano (a character with some of the best mid-range pokes) with Scorpion (a character with rather short-ranged normals). If freaking Scorpion can win with a deep old-school playstyle like that, why can't a bunch of other characters?

And anti-air is a lot more common and powerful than people still realize. Most if not all characters have a good AA normal somewhere, even if it isn't immediately obvious. I haven't seen any other Kanos use f+1 regularly, I've only seen one Raiden use standing 2 (which nets you a full bnb), etc. Jumpins should not be much better (if at all) than in SF4 at high level. You have to remember that this game is still less than 6 months old IIRC, and I don't think any game can be taken to its full potential in less than a year...mindless rushdown is already getting crushed by the very best players and hopefully the knowledge should spread to others soon.

As for the throw system, being an ST guy I've always hated how nerfed throws have gotten in other modern FGs and love where they're at in MK. People comparing it to 2D games forget that you can't beat throws with low short there - which is basically the situation you have in MK with d+3's! 2D throws are also generally faster than MK's, even after adjusting for the overall speed of normals. And people comparing it to 3D games forget that 3D throws do a lot more damage than MK's and lead to far better offensive situations (generally closer to you, no invincible wakeup moves unless you're playing VF IIRC).

 

[Helter Skelter]

I knew I remembered you from somewhere Funkdoc.

You were an A.B.A (my favourite character ever) player and I remember you posting a lot on Dustloop. Heh. Small world.


In regards to throws. Ideally throws should be like this:

1+3 is a Forward Throw and 2+4 is a Backwards throw. Press 1 to escape a forward throw. Press 2 to escape a backwards throw. The Throw break window should be 8-10 frames wide and allowed to be broken during a block. If you escape a throw, you recieve 1% damage and you are left in negative frames (around 3-5 frames negative). Throws should be invincible when in animation and not be beaten out by Sektor's homing missiles, Sub Zero's clones, etc.

or

1+3 is the same as it is currently. However, pressing 1+3 breaks throws in either direction. The Throw break window should be 8-10 frames wide and can not be broken during a block. If you escape a throw, you recieve 1% damage and you are left in negative frames (around 3-5 frames negative). Throws should be invincible when in animation and not be beaten out by Sektor's homing missiles, Sub Zero's clones, Noob Saibot's portals, etc.


Right now you have to not be blocking and guess (admittedly an educated one depending on where you are on the screen) between two separate throw break routes. If that's the case, and you have to leave yourself open to a hit only to have to guess your way out of a throw situation. What's the real point of have a throw break in the game to begin with? Breaking throws is a reactionary skill and should be just as important as the throw itself.

This game is so nearly there. Just a little more smoothing out and it's perfect.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Actually I think it could be that even though you may already be holding down, you should not press the attack button until the character has actually started moving down (only after a certain point in the duck animation is the character considered to be actually ducking). So if you are too fast to attack, even though you are already holding down before pressing the attack button, the character is still considered to be standing at the time you press the attack so a standing attack will come out.

I'm not sure if that actually makes sense, though..

This is exactly the problem, MK cannot withstand fast high level play, the engine cannot register the inputs quickly enough. This is refereed to as the input drop glitch. It wasn't a problem when everyone was new to the game, but now that everyone is playing significantly faster we're seeing this from everyone and even the pros have this happen to them. So, clearly, it's a huge problem.

 

[PND_Mustard]

I knew I remembered you from somewhere Funkdoc.

You were an A.B.A (my favourite character ever) player and I remember you posting a lot on Dustloop. Heh. Small world.


In regards to throws. Ideally throws should be like this:

1+3 is a Forward Throw and 2+4 is a Backwards throw. Press 1 to escape a forward throw. Press 2 to escape a backwards throw. The Throw break window should be 8-10 frames wide and allowed to be broken during a block. If you escape a throw, you recieve 1% damage and you are left in negative frames (around 3-5 frames negative). Throws should be invincible when in animation and not be beaten out by Sektor's homing missiles, Sub Zero's clones, etc.

or

1+3 is the same as it is currently. However, pressing 1+3 breaks throws in either direction. The Throw break window should be 8-10 frames wide and can not be broken during a block. If you escape a throw, you recieve 1% damage and you are left in negative frames (around 3-5 frames negative). Throws should be invincible when in animation and not be beaten out by Sektor's homing missiles, Sub Zero's clones, Noob Saibot's portals, etc.


Right now you have to not be blocking and guess (admittedly an educated one depending on where you are on the screen) between two separate throw break routes. If that's the case, and you have to leave yourself open to a hit only to have to guess your way out of a throw situation. What's the real point of have a throw break in the game to begin with? Breaking throws is a reactionary skill and should be just as important as the throw itself.

This game is so nearly there. Just a little more smoothing out and it's perfect.

your suggestions really dont get the attention they deserve, your points are always very well founded.

 

[THTB]

The second idea is probably the best way to handle throws if they had to be changed.

 

[Tremloc]

http://www.netherrealm.com/careers

What I think is NRS should hire the top players as consultants for the next game. Contract them for 2-3 years, whatever the length of the game is. Incorporate them into the design system and see what comes out.

We might get the greatest MK and we might not, but it would be an interesting experiment none-the-less.

 

[jamessmk]

Unfortunate the business world don't see your vision

 

[Tremloc]

Unfortunate the business world don't see your vision

Of course they do. Companies hire professional / top tier competitive players as consultants all the time.

They did it with MK, but that was for testing, too late to change any major mechanics.

 

[jamessmk]

Which MK? Mk9! You see what that got. Remember opinions are like a%+holes, everyone got them. They only implement what they want.

 

[Tremloc]

Which MK? Mk9! You see what that got. Remember opinions are like a%+holes, everyone got them. They only implement what they want.

That's why I prefaced it with "too late to change any major mechanics". It's also the reason why I stated that they needed to contract them around the beginning of the project so they're part of the initial design meetings.

Two things would need to happen for it to work:
1) The current designers put their ego's on the back burner and legitimately listen to the contracted players.
2) Bring the contractors on early enough so they're able to affect major decisions.

 

[Shadowfire]

Like if you're holding block and you read a throw attempt

If you're holding block then you didn't read the throw attempt.


I honestly don't have any technical gripes about MK9 that aren't directly related to bugs. I switched to MK9 because of the ridiculous inconsistencies in SF4, which heavily invested players incorrectly describe as design features (teleport bugs, wildly inconsistent and non-conforming hitboxes, terrible balance, ridiculously heavy emphasis on 1 frame links, option selects, input glitches like crouch teching being part of the meta game, having to count frames to do safe jumps, the input buffer getting cleared by the startup of Viper's Seismo Hammers, generally horrible balance, the list is endless).

MvC3 has its share of serious technical issues as well, what with wavedashing being near-useless on some of the characters that need it most (Haggar), Capcom's unwillingless to nerf X-factor level 3, useless assists everywhere, characters with easy access to mixups which require the defender to think but not the attacker (Wolverine), and the new mashing mechanic (which made me decide not to get Ultimate).

Another technical problem across all Capcom games is the fact that they inflate the execution requirements needlessly on many moves, introducing an element of artificial difficulty and forcing you to fight the game more than your opponent. Fly/unfly/float combos, horridly antiquated diagonal charge motions, and everything Viper does could all be implemented with half the button presses. Let's not even get into how much more married they are to their primitive early 90s character designs (move-wise) than the MK-franchise.

The worst MK9 has is that air fireballs are slightly too good, you still can't block out of dash cancelled moves, there's one serious reset combo left, and tag mode needs its meter rewards tweaked. As far as systemic issues, that's genuinely all I can think of.

I say it without hyperbole when I say that MK9 is actually the closest I've ever played to a basically perfect competitive fighting game. It's the most polished game I've played since Garou: Mark of the Wolves, and MK9 has more than 3 times as many characters.

I think we have it pretty good.

 

[TyrantRevolver]

If you're holding block then you didn't read the throw attempt.

I think you may be missing the point. The complaint of the players I was speaking with stemmed from the thought that they felt you "should" be able to do this. I should be allowed to guard, make my guess - if I decide its a throw I should be able to break it once I've made a correct read.

Instead I have to run the risk of eating a full combo by committing to a guess that may or may not mitigate a small portion of damage as compared to a full combo. And if that weren't enough you also have to make another guess after you've made the read. You have to hit the correct input to successfully break the throw (I realize in most cases people prefer to throw in the direction that will plant you closer to the wall, but still, the risk is there.) In essence there is no reason to even attempt throw breaks in this game. The risk/reward ratio doesn't justify making use of it at all. The mechanic becomes more or less useless. "That" is what they say is a problem.

In general, until recently there wasn't a hell of a lot keeping throws in check in this game. They were too good. The recent patch stole some of their supremacy, but basically everyone had a free throw attempt off of a jump-in before - to NRS's credit, they did pay attention to this. However, it still hasn't solved the problem: That throw breaks are not a useful mechanic in the way they are implemented in this game.

Also on a side note even though I feel NRS has done a lot to make MK9 a balanced and well developed fighter... there is still some really random stuff that happens in this game. A while back I had a person playing scorpion do a teleport punch in the air while I was playing reptile and I had done his ex acid spit. Well the ex acid spit came out of the back of reptiles head and hit the person playing scorpion in the air at my back..... -_-

I dunno. Its a great game, but it has its measure of flaws imo.

Oh and one last thing: I loved Garou. I actually do know where you're coming from on that statement.

 

[Shadowfire]

I think you may be missing the point. The complaint of the players I was speaking with stemmed from the thought that they felt you "should" be able to do this. I should be allowed to guard, make my guess - if I decide its a throw I should be able to break it once I've made a correct read.

I understand that, but that's a preconception based on Street Fighter-derivative engines. There's no reason that that is an objective flaw in the game's mechanics. If the shoe were on the other foot, people would say it was counter-intuitive to do it the other way around.

Instead I have to run the risk of eating a full combo by committing to a guess that may or may not mitigate a small portion of damage as compared to a full combo. And if that weren't enough you also have to make another guess after you've made the read. You have to hit the correct input to successfully break the throw (I realize in most cases people prefer to throw in the direction that will plant you closer to the wall, but still, the risk is there.)

This is a more reasonable way to approach the argument, but I question in what circumstances doing a single punch is going to result in you eating a full combo on reaction.

Characters that can combo out of poke punishes tend to do low damage (Kabal, Kung Lao) and their pressure is designed around forcing you to make that choice. It's very explicitly designed into the rushdown mechanics.

This is in part a tradeoff for not basing rushdown on block direction guesses, which is a good thing in my estimation because that's always based off the center of the character's collision box, which is arbitrarily chosen, inconsistent, and largely invisible. The context and result of a throw mixup are very clear, and you can always be certain of exactly what you did correctly or incorrectly after one.

In essence there is no reason to even attempt throw breaks in this game.

Now this however is a textbook case of playing Theory Fighter. It's very broad statement without even taking into account the fact that this isn't Street Fighter and you can tech throws on reaction rather than anticipation.

This game is hugely based on momentum, too. The throw damage might seem tempting to just eat, but do you really want to get knocked down and put in the corner right as you had Cyrax backed into it?

Let's not forget that crouching is even more than a throw break in this game. If you correctly guess that a throw is coming then you have a higher risk option that comes with a tangible reward.

Also on a side note even though I feel NRS has done a lot to make MK9 a balanced and well developed fighter... there is still some really random stuff that happens in this game. A while back I had a person playing scorpion do a teleport punch in the air while I was playing reptile and I had done his ex acid spit. Well the ex acid spit came out of the back of reptiles head and hit the person playing scorpion in the air at my back..... -_-

Software has bugs yo.

Oh and one last thing: I loved Garou. I actually do know where you're coming from on that statement.

If there was ever a game that deserved an HD Remix ; ;