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General/Other - Tanya Tanya SHOULD be normalized.

What do you think about the normalizations?

  • Total voters
    242
kevkopdx

kevkopdx

Kombatant
SirVigorous said:
Overall I don't think Tanya is OP. she's clearly beatable. However, the argument could be made that she is bad or terrible game design. You have to play very different against Tanya than you do against every other character. Tanya is like a minigame within the game.
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you can say the exact same thing about sub zero
 
E

EcHo

Noob
It should eat 33% of stam at least in air. Free get in with a tele kick or punch or free get away was sickening to watch at CEO.
 
Sultan

Sultan

Kitana, Scorpion
What do Tanya mains think of these potential adjustments? It would be smart to have a consensus on a list and point it in Paulo's direction.

air tele costs stamina
adjust scaling so combos do 5 less damage across the board
give ex tonfa rekka same frame data as regular tonfa rekka
make regular and ex dust -3
fix ex teleport's armor issue
fix her pushback hitbox issue

I really think if all the above was implemented she's still be in the top 5 discussion, just less obnoxious.
And don't blow me up if you don't like the suggestions, just tell me what's wrong with them and we can discuss it. I don't feed trolls.
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Sultan said:
What do Tanya mains think of these potential adjustments? It would be smart to have a consensus on a list and point it in Paulo's direction.

air tele costs stamina
adjust scaling so combos do 5 less damage across the board
give ex tonfa rekka same frame data as regular tonfa rekka
make regular and ex dust -3
fix ex teleport's armor issue
fix her pushback hitbox issue

I really think if all the above was implemented she's still be in the top 5 discussion, just less obnoxious.
And don't blow me up if you don't like the suggestions, just tell me what's wrong with them and we can discuss it. I don't feed trolls.
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Dust is already negative.

See this is the problem. Those making suggestions just don't know. You can't watch a tourney and say, "I know how to fix this character!" When you don't actually play them. Not even if you used them in practice a few times.


My list:

Tonfa is fine

Ex tonfa should be buffed to actually hit all opponents if first hit is blocked

Dust is also fine being -4
Ex dust is fine at -4 also

Ground tele is fine

Ex tele is fine

Air teleport could a little bit of a tone down in invincibility. Make it invincible later in the animation and have it end more quickly in air but don't take it away completely. Just make it punishable if it's read correctly.

All teleports should not cost stamina in any way. If it did it would ruin her tele cancel pressure which requires at least 1 full bar to do. I might be ok with back tele costing 1/3 of a bar but not forward or ground.

These are the only acceptable solutions without it being overdone.




Please people...don't make a suggestion of you never played her competitively offline. That's the only way Paulo considers the balance of his game. He does not consider how online players might think a character is op when making a balance patch.

@Sultan btw this post is not directed to you specifically. I just quoted your post cause you didn't know frame data on dust yet you suggested it be changed when it's already -4.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
Dust is already negative.

See this is the problem. Those making suggestions just don't know. You can't watch a tourney and say, "I know how to fix this character!" When you don't actually play them. Not even if you used them in practice a few times.


My list:

Tonfa is fine

Ex tonfa should be buffed to actually hit all opponents if first hit is blocked

Dust is also fine being -4
Ex dust is fine at -4 also

Ground tele is fine

Ex tele is fine

Air teleport could a little bit of a tone down in invincibility. Make it invincible later in the animation and have it end more quickly in air but don't take it away completely. Just make it punishable if it's read correctly.

All teleports should not cost stamina in any way. If it did it would ruin her tele cancel pressure which requires at least 1 full bar to do. I might be ok with back tele costing 1/3 of a bar but not forward or ground.

These are the only acceptable solutions without it being overdone.




Please people...don't make a suggestion of you never played her competitively offline. That's the only way Paulo considers the balance of his game. He does not consider how online players might think a character is op when making a balance patch.

@Sultan btw this post is not directed to you specifically. I just quoted your post cause you didn't know frame data on dust yet you suggested it be changed when it's already -4.
Click to expand...
We need to find a happy medium between those that don't know and those that know, but have an interest making them biased.
 
Sultan

Sultan

Kitana, Scorpion
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
Dust is already negative.

See this is the problem. Those making suggestions just don't know. You can't watch a tourney and say, "I know how to fix this character!" When you don't actually play them. Not even if you used them in practice a few times.


My list:

Tonfa is fine

Ex tonfa should be buffed to actually hit all opponents if first hit is blocked

Dust is also fine being -4
Ex dust is fine at -4 also

Ground tele is fine

Ex tele is fine

Air teleport could a little bit of a tone down in invincibility. Make it invincible later in the animation and have it end more quickly in air but don't take it away completely. Just make it punishable if it's read correctly.

All teleports should not cost stamina in any way. If it did it would ruin her tele cancel pressure which requires at least 1 full bar to do. I might be ok with back tele costing 1/3 of a bar but not forward or ground.

These are the only acceptable solutions without it being overdone.




Please people...don't make a suggestion of you never played her competitively offline. That's the only way Paulo considers the balance of his game. He does not consider how online players might think a character is op when making a balance patch.

@Sultan btw this post is not directed to you specifically. I just quoted your post cause you didn't know frame data on dust yet you suggested it be changed when it's already -4.
Click to expand...
I don't use Pyromancer at all so I was basing the frame data on incorrect CEO commentary.

I don't see why air teleport costing stamina would be a problem, she still has her aerial options, they just become less abuseable. I think ground tele should stay exactly as it is personally (ie no stamina cost).

And I suggest the EX rekka's being the same frames as regular because there's really no reason for Kobu Jutsu to have a safe reversal when you still have your rekka mind games and an armored overhead and armored low. What's the point in the rekka mind games if EX is safe on block?

And an EX Tonfa toss fix would be very welcome.

--------------------

My updated list:

air tele costs stamina
adjust scaling so combos do 5 less damage across the board (I really do think she should be doing a little less damage for her toolset)
give ex tonfa rekka same frame data as regular tonfa rekka
fix ex teleport's armor issue
fix her pushback hitbox issue
fix ex tonfa toss
 
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SirVigorous

SirVigorous

Noob
Sultan said:
I don't use Pyromancer at all so I was basing the frame data on incorrect CEO commentary.
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I want to mention this. There's pretty awful commentary (substance wise) when Tanya is on the screen. Especially in the mirrors. I have little problem following two tanya's so it's frustrating to hear commentators be like "hurp durp, which tanya is which? I have no idea what's going on."

When both tanya's are in the air a teleport distance away and they both do a forward Tele. They switch positions, it's not rocket science. People lose object permanence when Tanya is picked.
 
Afumba

Afumba

Kombatant
About the teleport... What if they add a window that starts after her first teleport that makes additional teleports cost stamina for a set period of time? Make it a bar or 1/3 max stamina for each additional teleport in that window.

Making the first teleport cost stamina sounds dumb to me... she teleports, gets hit and cant even break. Given that the teleport is part of her game i think it would make her really sad.

Also ppls wont stop bitching about her as long as she can teleport all over the place... its sad but thats the truth. Even if they nerf her everywhere, as long as she stays somewhat strong and top players pick her up ppls will bitch about it. Especially the viewers who are annoyed about the teleports & those who make the hype all about the characters and not the players. While we are at it... anyone else bored about Laos/shinnoks blockcrap?
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Afumba said:
About the teleport... What if they add a window that starts after her first teleport that makes additional teleports cost stamina for a set period of time? Make it a bar or 1/3 max stamina for each additional teleport in that window.

Making the first teleport cost stamina sounds dumb to me... she teleports, gets hit and cant even break. Given that the teleport is part of her game i think it would make her really sad.

Also ppls wont stop bitching about her as long as she can teleport all over the place... its sad but thats the truth. Even if they nerf her everywhere, as long as she stays somewhat strong and top players pick her up ppls will bitch about it. Especially the viewers who are annoyed about the teleports & those who make the hype all about the characters and not the players. While we are at it... anyone else bored about Laos/shinnoks blockcrap?
Click to expand...
People are going to b!tch no matter what they do because that's what people do.
 
llxPeeKABooxll

llxPeeKABooxll

Noob
I think removing the invincibility frames across the board for the tele is good enough. I think adjusting the tele to the point of higher start up, higher recovery, and costing stamina would neuter this character. Tanya's base as a character relies on the tele. If anything make her forward teles 12 frames instead of 7 and increase the frame cancellability window of her backwards teles by 3 frames and increase landing recovery by 3 frames. Like I said I think taking away the invincibility frames of the teleports already is a huge change to the character and anything more would strain the character heavily. So my suggestions would be:

Option 1

All Teleports - remove any and all invincibility frames across the board on start-up and air/landing recovery
Option 2

All Teleports - remove any and all invincibility frames across the board on start-up and air/landing recovery
Teleport Forward - start-up increased to 12 frames from 7
Air Teleport Forward - start-up increased to 12 frames from 7
Quick Teleport Forward - start-up increased to 12 frames from 7, -12 on block, new option given: spend a bar to gain hitbox OR to become 7 frames without a hitbox
Teleport Away - frame cancellability window increased by 3 frames and landing recovery increased by 3 frames
Air Teleport Away - frame cancellability window increased by 3 frames and landing recovery increased by 3 frames
Quick Teleport Away - frame cancellability window increased by 3 frames, landing recovery increased by 3 frames, -5 on block, new option given: spend a bar to gain hitbox OR to have 3 frames decreased on frame cancellability and landing recovery without hitbox

Option 3

All Teleports - remove any and all invincibility frames across the board on start-up and air/landing recovery, each teleport costs 1/3 a bar of stamina, and charging teleports slowly builds meter (1/2 of a bar fully charged)
Teleport Forward - start-up increased to 12 frames from 7
Air Teleport Forward - start-up increased to 12 frames from 7
Quick Teleport Forward - start-up increased to 12 frames from 7, -12 on block, new option given: spend a bar to gain hitbox OR to become 7 frames without a hitbox
Teleport Away - frame cancellability window increased by 3 frames and landing recovery increased by 3 frames
Air Teleport Away - frame cancellability window increased by 3 frames and landing recovery increased by 3 frames
Quick Teleport Away - frame cancellability window increased by 3 frames, landing recovery increased by 3 frames, -5 on block, new option given: spend a bar to gain hitbox OR to have 3 frames decreased on frame cancellability and landing recovery without hitbox

So option 1 is basically the simple, quick, big nerf hotfix. Option 2 basically makes makes her normal forward teles 5 frames slower, gives her normal backwards teles overall 6 frames of added recovery, and her ex teles -5 (backwards) and -12 (forward) on block. To compensate a bit for those nerfs, Tanya is given the option the spend her ex teles for a hitbox with her new frame data OR to spend a bar to get her original frame data back but loses the option of getting a good mid hitting hitbox. Option 3 is a harsher version of option 2 and adds the big nerf of making ALL of Tanya's teles cost 1/3 of a stamina bar. Thats including her double ex teles. Each of those teleports would cost 1/3 of a bar each. So doing ex tele then doing an air tele after that would be -2/3 of a stamina bar. However she's given the option to build up to 1/2 of a meter bar while charging a regular tele. This can be used to "pay" for her original godlike frame data with a bar OR to get a good mid hitting hitbox with her new frame data.
 
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KGA Prosaic

KGA Prosaic

RM Prosaic
You effect the start up of her forward tele and it does destroy her linking based around hit advantage of a staggered opponent to start up of the following link. Hopefully, they leave that shit alone for variation sake. Now, back teleport and back air teleport should effect your staminia bar. This game doesnt have a strong zoning game tk deal with instant air back tele to pogo, repeat. Practically free meter gain on certain matchups. Her tools seem pretty inconsistent so I would love to see that under review. Like why did you get an inverted teleport instead of the traditional like you input. Pyromancer's dust needs to be looked further at. An insane oki and activated longer than any other move; ie subzeros freeze. Even when she's hit.
 
MadeOfMetal

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
i say we make Tanya the normal ground to stand on, and bring everyone else up to her level, starting with Reptile, i say let her ride, and normalize the rest for a lack of a better distinction
 
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