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Sub-Zero General Discussion

Amplified$hotz

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
STB Sgt Reed said:
Why is ice ball so trash in this game? What is the reason. Can't even hit confirm into it. Even if you know a projectile is going to come it's so freakin' slow you just get stuffed. Clone is already garbage, freezing with clone or the ground thing scales horribly. Frost kameo freeze lasts longer than the main cryomancer of the series...

I'm convinced former players at NRS that got cooked by sub are doing this shit on purpose lol

I use lao kameo in order to do more than 2 hits on block before losing my turn with sub zero. Who do y'all use? Sareena seems the only way to get comparable damage to the cast but then you have no offense. lol
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Personally I say just use whatever kameo you like. Sub synergizes best with Goro, Sareena, Sektor, Lao, Frost, and maybe Stryker. Sonya if you don’t mind sacrificing neutral for damage.

But his base kit is so bad that it really doesn’t make much of a difference who you play. He’s not a functional character.
 
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Eji1700

Kombatant
Amplified$hotz said:
Personally I say just use whatever kameo you like. Sub synergizes best with Goro, Sareena, Sektor, Lao, Frost, and maybe Stryker. Sonya if you don’t mind sacrificing neutral for damage.

But his base kit is so bad that it really doesn’t make much of a difference who you play. He’s not a functional character.
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I'll just add you can stick with lao. It's not like he's suddenly unusable. He's still probably the best for sub, you just get to play offense less (not that subs current state is anywhere near ok).
 
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Eji1700

Kombatant
Someone in Brady's chat was mentioning that ice clone into vapors perfectly times the vapors to read their wakeup (assuming they don't delay). Seems interesting as i've been trying to lab this stupid setup forever, and gives yet another reason to just end combos in clone punch instead of slide.

Unfortunately it isn't always obvious what they're doing until it's too late. Going to have to spend some lab time on it.
 
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Eji1700

Kombatant
Eji1700 said:
Someone in Brady's chat was mentioning that ice clone into vapors perfectly times the vapors to read their wakeup (assuming they don't delay). Seems interesting as i've been trying to lab this stupid setup forever, and gives yet another reason to just end combos in clone punch instead of slide.

Unfortunately it isn't always obvious what they're doing until it's too late. Going to have to spend some lab time on it.
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This is weird.

  1. I'm not sure if you have enough time to see that sub is going for vapors and just delay wakeup. If you can, it's probably not worth practicing.
  2. Even meterless vapors seems useful here once you train a bit on their wakeup animations.
  3. I think that with metered vapors you can punish some wakeups in their startup frames that would otherwise be safe on block, but i'll need to test more.
 
Gito666

Gito666

Ninjas > Special Forces
Anyone else struggling against Tanya? I'm doing pretty well with Sub (Demi God in KL), but I can never seem to figure out the correct range to be at against Tanya...
 
Amplified$hotz

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
Those of you who like to play lame and zone, give Stryker a try. I have a theory that he can take Sub-Zero from trash tier to mid tier.

Sareena is great. However she’s unsafe up close. And her best ability is a summon.

Some unique things Stryker offers SZ:

Being able to cover Sub-Zero’s string gaps with grenades

Grenades are also an ambush so he can combine it with other zoning tools for frame traps and chip. And it can make slide safe.

Plus on block 50/50 mixup off of any string

His arrest move removes Sub-Zero kameo armor

Ice klone, klone punch, icy vapors, grenades, dash in f12, divekick, and slide is a lot to deal with in the corner. And stryker could potentially make all these options safe. Basically Sub can be a corner trap character again. Still needs stress testing though.
 
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OldManFGC

Noob
I find it a bit odd that Brady is focused on finding a way to control the opponent's wakeup when Sub is already very good at that without a Kameo. Against Lao for instance, you can break his armored wakeup with F1+Klone after any of your knockdowns except sweep. Obviously, Lao is an absurdly good Kameo (cough broken cough) so good for everyone, but it feels like a missed opportunity. I'd rather gain new tactics with my Kameo pick than double up on something I can already do.
 
Amplified$hotz

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
OldManFGC said:
I find it a bit odd that Brady is focused on finding a way to control the opponent's wakeup when Sub is already very good at that without a Kameo. Against Lao for instance, you can break his armored wakeup with F1+Klone after any of your knockdowns except sweep. Obviously, Lao is an absurdly good Kameo (cough broken cough) so good for everyone, but it feels like a missed opportunity. I'd rather gain new tactics with my Kameo pick than double up on something I can already do.
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Armor breaking is near useless for me too because I don’t want to be near anyone as Sub-Zero unless they outzone me.

I would take everything Tom says with a grain of salt.

Best to just take bits and pieces of everyone’s tech and create your own style.
 
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Eji1700

Kombatant
OldManFGC said:
I find it a bit odd that Brady is focused on finding a way to control the opponent's wakeup when Sub is already very good at that without a Kameo. Against Lao for instance, you can break his armored wakeup with F1+Klone after any of your knockdowns except sweep. Obviously, Lao is an absurdly good Kameo (cough broken cough) so good for everyone, but it feels like a missed opportunity. I'd rather gain new tactics with my Kameo pick than double up on something I can already do.
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Because forcing your opponent to block is the first step in getting them to respect your offense, especially on a character who by design has a lot of ways to end in a knockdown right next to his opponent.

His whole issue, which I agree with mostly, is that sub's "control" is often a guess. Oh you beat armor, but if they delay + buttons you lose your pressure. Or if they jump out, or whatever.

Tom's whole setup is "if you're doing anything other than blocking, I will catch and punish you", which forces them to block, and if you do block, i'm going to vary between staggering strings, string into lao hat, and string into block. Once you've got them blocking on wakeup you also mix in throws or whatever else (in theory an overhead but again sub's really isn't catching anyone good).

It's part of why sub is so frustrating, because on kd you're basically guessing as much as them, while plenty of other cast members can just lock you into "deal with my pressure"
 
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OldManFGC

Noob
Eji1700 said:
Because forcing your opponent to block is the first step in getting them to respect your offense, especially on a character who by design has a lot of ways to end in a knockdown right next to his opponent.

His whole issue, which I agree with mostly, is that sub's "control" is often a guess. Oh you beat armor, but if they delay + buttons you lose your pressure. Or if they jump out, or whatever.

Tom's whole setup is "if you're doing anything other than blocking, I will catch and punish you", which forces them to block, and if you do block, i'm going to vary between staggering strings, string into lao hat, and string into block. Once you've got them blocking on wakeup you also mix in throws or whatever else (in theory an overhead but again sub's really isn't catching anyone good).

It's part of why sub is so frustrating, because on kd you're basically guessing as much as them, while plenty of other cast members can just lock you into "deal with my pressure"
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Getting the opponent to block is definitely a good thing but F1 beats buttons or jump, F1 into Klone/Enhanced Slide beats armor on most characters, and F12 beats delayed jump or buttons. Switching between these isn't as easy as low hat of course, but the option does exist, whereas you can't get back the things you're giving up by picking low hat (e.g. combong off of slide or B3 for instance). Not saying that Lao Kameo can't help you win as Sub--that Kameo is busted, so for sure it can work! I just found it odd that this is the tech Brady was focused on since Sub can already cover it.
 
Amplified$hotz

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
I think Sub-Zero is played best when he forces you to come to him, and sets a bunch of land mines in your path.

Instead of focusing on oki, I like to frustrate the opponent, with false openings and traps. Make them think it’s safe to attack when it’s not, and make them think it’s unsafe to attack when it is.
 
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Eji1700

Kombatant
OldManFGC said:
Getting the opponent to block is definitely a good thing but F1 beats buttons or jump, F1 into Klone/Enhanced Slide beats armor on most characters, and F12 beats delayed jump or buttons. Switching between these isn't as easy as low hat of course, but the option does exist, whereas you can't get back the things you're giving up by picking low hat (e.g. combong off of slide or B3 for instance). Not saying that Lao Kameo can't help you win as Sub--that Kameo is busted, so for sure it can work! I just found it odd that this is the tech Brady was focused on since Sub can already cover it.
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I'm going to have to lab this again. I'd swear that F1 had bigger gaps than that, especially vs something like delay into buttons, but maybe i'm remembering wrong.
 
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OldManFGC

Noob
Eji1700 said:
I'm going to have to lab this again. I'd swear that F1 had bigger gaps than that, especially vs something like delay into buttons, but maybe i'm remembering wrong.
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For sure. I was really happy when I tested and the timing for F12 worked so well after slide.
 
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OldManFGC

Noob
Amplified$hotz said:
I think Sub-Zero is played best when he forces you to come to him, and sets a bunch of land mines in your path.

Instead of focusing on oki, I like to frustrate the opponent, with false openings and traps. Make them think it’s safe to attack when it’s not, and make them think it’s unsafe to attack when it is.
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I like some of that for sure, treating klone kind of like a parry, but I also really like playing footsies or even getting in their face. It's nice that Sub can do well with multiple styles.
 
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