Question - Sub-Zero Sub Zero against Kenshi zoning

[llabslb]

You pretty much... change character. Really, this MU is awful for SZ. Like MK9 awful.

Played it million times, GM is completely useless even if i don't have meter (and 99% of the time i have) being in corner means nothing since i just use soul push which will send you full screen. You can't slide since i position myself 3/4 of the screen all the time and wait for it to punish for meterless 30% combo and send you full screen again. I still gonna check you from time to time with run up throw / 4,2,1 ~ 1,1 / b3,2 (hit confirm it if you don't block) and you have to hold that.

Unbreakable / Cryomancer change nothing, you still have to get in, Kesnhi is always ok in being full screen or 3/4 screen and building meter since in this MU i can just throw 2-3 hits into X-ray for 50% like candys if you allow me build meter.

And this is in Balanced.

Kenjutsu offline is even worst for SZ.

I know the mu sucks but I won't be able to change my character under a tournament setting.

 

[WayoftheFist]

I know the mu sucks but I won't be able to change my character under a tournament setting.

Honestly if you're worried about the tournament setting I would make someone other than sub zero my go to character especially if you know your opponent mains kenshi. I'm going to get flack for this but I don't care... my opinion is that sub zero in his present form is not viable to WIN a tournament vs top tier characters and top tier players that know his holes.

 

[tatterbug4]

I use to struggle against subz so much and then I started maining kenshi and dvorah lol

 

[llabslb]

Honestly if you're worried about the tournament setting I would make someone other than sub zero my go to character especially if you know your opponent mains kenshi. I'm going to get flack for this but I don't care... my opinion is that sub zero in his present form is not viable to WIN a tournament vs top tier characters and top tier players that know his holes.

I don't want to go onto a debate if Sub Zero is tournament material or not. Just looking for a strategy that maybe able to help me out.

 

[zoofs]

Don't listen to everyone, pick GM Sub. Slide your way past the zoning. Put a safe clone and 50/50 him to death.

But more seriously, block his zoning then walk or run in a little. Block his zoning and now you're in the range where one wrong read is bad for both you. He could try to zone you but he'd be negative and if punishable you could reversal slide or EX slide through his spirit moves if you prefer. Spirit charge is like -16 so you can for sure punish that same with rising karma. I don't know how punishable the overhead is though. Slide > all his zoning at mid range except spirit charage. Spirit Charge > Slide. BUT Spirit Charge is PUNISHABLE by slide. So that's if you're playing the reads game.

If you get him to the corner. I'm not even joking punish his zoning hard and 50/50 him to death. Make sure you ONLY use clone setups that are safe. You don't need to be going hard everytime because EX bf2 will push you full screen away from Kenshi and you need to work again. It's all about dat oki.

That's my advice, it's not very well thoughtout and some of it's probably not totally correct if you argue petty semantics or whatever. But it will get you on the right path if you want to use GM sub for sure.

Live by the klone, die by the klone.

"safe clone"

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Honestly if you're worried about the tournament setting I would make someone other than sub zero my go to character especially if you know your opponent mains kenshi. I'm going to get flack for this but I don't care... my opinion is that sub zero in his present form is not viable to WIN a tournament vs top tier characters and top tier players that know his holes.

You won't get flack for it in here, we know the character well enough to know there's definitely some truth in that statement, the only people who still think Sub is even in the top half of the roster are generally really, really bad players who refuse to learn a match up. As soon as you know your options vs Sub he is suddenly extremely unsafe on practically everything that is unique to him, this is why the second most popular character in the game is basically non-existant in the competitive scene, while in low level matches he wrecks scrubs who come in here crying till he's nerfed in the first couple of weeks. Anyone who thinks Sub was EVER top 5 before the clone changes can basically consider themselves a part of this group, hell they didn't make him any safer, he was unlikely ever even in the top half of the cast

 

[WayoftheFist]

You won't get flack for it in here, we know the character well enough to know there's definitely some truth in that statement, the only people who still think Sub is even in the top half of the roster are generally really, really bad players who refuse to learn a match up. As soon as you know your options vs Sub he is suddenly extremely unsafe on practically everything that is unique to him, this is why the second most popular character in the game is basically non-existant in the competitive scene, while in low level matches he wrecks scrubs who come in here crying till he's nerfed in the first couple of weeks. Anyone who thinks Sub was EVER top 5 because of the clone changes, hell they didn't make him any safer, he was unlikely ever even in the top half of the cast

While I'm not sure of his actual placement I just think he's in trouble trying to run a bracket on his own even in the most capable hands. I don't want to further derail the thread though. Just seeing someone ask for advice in the kenshi matchup and seeing that I'm not the only one whose best advice is to pick someone else got me thinking about it again. I picked up kenshi for the main reason that when I finally do get to travel for this game I simply do not want to put my money on sub zero and sub zero alone.

 

[RM Ree]

Honestly if you're worried about the tournament setting I would make someone other than sub zero my go to character especially if you know your opponent mains kenshi. I'm going to get flack for this but I don't care... my opinion is that sub zero in his present form is not viable to WIN a tournament vs top tier characters and top tier players that know his holes.

Lol @ Sub Zero beating Tanya in CEO Grandfinals. Where there's a will, there's a Lin Kuei.

I don't think the match up vs. Kenshi is bad. We don't get a free clone off of ouf usual strings, which hurts, but it doesn't make the clone useless. It forces Kenshi to use his specials, right? Which are - frames at least from point blank. Safe clone (ex statue if you have to) and block the reversal/ wake up, then punish. Pretty typical. We just have to play the same zoning game everyone else in the cast does. Play the zoning meta, get in, mix up, take him to the corner.

I wouldn't switch to Cryomancer here. It doesn't have much GM doesn't besides B33 hammer mix ups. Damage in the corner is comparable, and one combo mid screen should take them there anyway.

 

[llabslb]

Lol @ Sub Zero beating Tanya in CEO Grandfinals. Where there's a will, there's a Lin Kuei.

I don't think the match up vs. Kenshi is bad. We don't get a free clone off of ouf usual strings, which hurts, but it doesn't make the clone useless. It forces Kenshi to use his specials, right? Which are - frames at least from point blank. Safe clone (ex statue if you have to) and block the reversal/ wake up, then punish. Pretty typical. We just have to play the same zoning game everyone else in the cast does. Play the zoning meta, get in, mix up, take him to the corner.

I wouldn't switch to Cryomancer here. It doesn't have much GM doesn't besides B33 hammer mix ups. Damage in the corner is comparable, and one combo mid screen should take them there anyway.

You must be taking the piss lol

 

[LEGEND]

I don't think the match up vs. Kenshi is bad. We don't get a free clone off of ouf usual strings, which hurts, but it doesn't make the clone useless. It forces Kenshi to use his specials, right? Which are - frames at least from point blank. Safe clone (ex statue if you have to) and block the reversal/ wake up, then punish. Pretty typical. We just have to play the same zoning game everyone else in the cast does. Play the zoning meta, get in, mix up, take him to the corner.

I wouldn't switch to Cryomancer here. It doesn't have much GM doesn't besides B33 hammer mix ups. Damage in the corner is comparable, and one combo mid screen should take them there anyway.

Thank you for being a voice of reason in this thread of ignorance

The only time kenshi's zoning is a "problem" is when you are in push range. Be patient and walk him to the corner, Kenshi has to take risks to keep you out. The MU is fine

 

[llabslb]

Thank you for being a voice of reason in this thread of ignorance

The only time kenshi's zoning is a "problem" is when you are in push range. Be patient and walk him to the corner, Kenshi has to take risks to keep you out. The MU is fine

Understand that sub zero's corner pressure is not very affective against Kenshi. Yes you'll be able to land the occasional combo but he can easily do a soul push and land a free string. Next thing you know you're in the corner. Also, 'walking' Kenshi to the corner isn't an easy task like you make it seem.

 

[RM Ree]

Kenshi's push gives him a free string? I wasn't aware of that. Can you break that down a little further? Like is push so + that it gives him a block string or does he combo off it? Is push safe on block even?

My reasoning was if he tries to push through clone and we block> punish, he'll think twice about doing it a second time, and we're free to pressure harder. If it's as good as you say, I'll have to learn the match up for reals instead of theory fighting.

 

[WayoftheFist]

Lol @ Sub Zero beating Tanya in CEO Grandfinals. Where there's a will, there's a Lin Kuei.

I don't think the match up vs. Kenshi is bad. We don't get a free clone off of ouf usual strings, which hurts, but it doesn't make the clone useless. It forces Kenshi to use his specials, right? Which are - frames at least from point blank. Safe clone (ex statue if you have to) and block the reversal/ wake up, then punish. Pretty typical. We just have to play the same zoning game everyone else in the cast does. Play the zoning meta, get in, mix up, take him to the corner.

I wouldn't switch to Cryomancer here. It doesn't have much GM doesn't besides B33 hammer mix ups. Damage in the corner is comparable, and one combo mid screen should take them there anyway.

Lol @ you taking what I said out of context. I specifically said he shouldn't be taken to a tournament alone as I clarified in a later post. Notice djt didn't take sub out until he had a set to lose nor did he win the tournament with sub zero alone from the beginning. Just like I said in a later post he used other characters as needed. Go ahead and take one set to mean we're fine. We're not.

 

[RM Ree]

Yeah that's cool man. I quoted the post in which you didn't clarify because it was funny to me, albeit out of context. If you clarified, don't be so offended, we all can see you know what you're talking about. If you feel the need to validate yourself further, maybe you could include some match up knowledge after the fact.

 

[llabslb]

Kenshi's push gives him a free string? I wasn't aware of that. Can you break that down a little further? Like is push so + that it gives him a block string or does he combo off it? Is push safe on block even?

My reasoning was if he tries to push through clone and we block> punish, he'll think twice about doing it a second time, and we're free to pressure harder. If it's as good as you say, I'll have to learn the match up for reals instead of theory fighting.

No, if the sub player blocks, he'll continue zoning and that chip will eventually gather up. Yes you can progress forward but the Kenshi can always do a soul push (which you have to block unless you want to get sent fullscreen away) and get a lovely string off it. This is a best case scenario because the sub zero actually managed to get close enough where he would be able to get the Kenshi to even use soul push. If you do manage to corner him remember he has plenty of tools which he can use to get out the corner and start destroying you in the corner instead. Even when ice clone is up, Kenshi can destroy as well as doing some chip (if you block) if they were to use pressure like f42 ice clone Kenshi will be able to punish with a soul push regardless of the ice clone being up. F42 ice is not safe btw but is typically used to pressure opponents.

 

[RM Ree]

I'm familiar with f42 xx clone being unsafe. I think most SZ players know this, but the string is so meaty and not many characters can punish it meterless like Kenshi can. In these situations, when the opponent starts to punish the clone strings, SZ mains start to use f4 xx clone instead, or burn a bar for the statue. Further, f4 xx ex statue is massively positive for SZ leaving a sort of guessing game for Kenshi as to if he can punish the particular clone set up, or attempt to push and be punished himself via frame trap or slide.

Beyond that, any character can claim the the corner as their own, that's not Kenshi specific. He may have some good tools to do it, especially in Possessed, but I assume we're focusing on Balanced.

Does push really send SZ too far to retaliate with slide? I'll do some testing myself this evening. If there are Kenshi mains, posting or lurking, who would like to teach me this match up, or learn more about it from the Kenshi's perspective, please don't hesitate to PM me.

 

[WayoftheFist]

I'm familiar with f42 xx clone being unsafe. I think most SZ players know this, but the string is so meaty and not many characters can punish it meterless like Kenshi can. In these situations, when the opponent starts to punish the clone strings, SZ mains start to use f4 xx clone instead, or burn a bar for the statue. Further, f4 xx ex statue is massively positive for SZ leaving a sort of guessing game for Kenshi as to if he can punish the particular clone set up, or attempt to push and be punished himself via frame trap or slide.

Beyond that, any character can claim the the corner as their own, that's not Kenshi specific. He may have some good tools to do it, especially in Possessed, but I assume we're focusing on Balanced.

Does push really send SZ too far to retaliate with slide? I'll do some testing myself this evening. If there are Kenshi mains, posting or lurking, who would like to teach me this match up, or learn more about it from the Kenshi's perspective, please don't hesitate to PM me.

How are you going to build meter in this mu? You're not going to do long strings on kenshi. You're also not going to throw an iceball. You're not going to put out clones without getting a teleflurry to the face. Meanwhile kenshi is going to have a meter building party. If he's right on just 1 read you're going back to full and fighting your way back in while he builds back meter and deals chip. He's not worried about eating a slide punish or two and he's not eating one unless he's close. F4 clone is nice but what does it get you? He's just going to take a step back and react to you coming forward. F4 ex clone will net you what midscreen at the cost of a bar? If I'm kenshi I do not care if you hit your low off of that bc you need another bar to convert. The risks are on sub zero in this matchup. I main both of these characters and I both do not feel threatened by sub when I'm kenshi and I feel nervous fighting kenshi as sub. Can sub win? Sure. It's not 10 0 or 9 1... but it's possibly sub zero's worst matchup in this game imo at least at our present level of tech.

 

[RM Ree]

Meter building, that's a good point. Sub loses there for sure. Idk, I think I'd throw an ice ball once in a while in this MU. If it leaves Sub's hands and Kenshi tries to/ does punish, that's a good trade.

Slide goes pretty far too. I know they recently shortened his recovery on a lot of his specials, so there are probably some ranges when Sub can't punish with slide. But where he can, I think it's a bigger deal than you're letting on.

F4 xx clone gets you real estate. Half of Sub's game is getting the opponent into a corner. If you're there, he doesn't need meter. Hitting the opponent to get them into a corner is just one, preferable way to skin the cat.

Also, teleflurry a high? On my way home to test stuff now.

 

[WayoftheFist]

Meter building, that's a good point. Idk I think I'd throw an ice ball once in a while in this MU. If it leaves Sub's hands and Kenshi tries to/ does punish, that's a good trade.

It's a 30 frame projectile man it's getting reflected

 

[RM Ree]

You're right about that, it's a slow projo. But not every situation is going to work out optimally for Kenshi. You can make any match up 9/1 if you speak of it as if every decision one party made was a perfect counter. The MU is probably in his favor, but not by much.

 

[WayoftheFist]

You're right about that, it's a slow projo. But not every situation is going to work out optimally for Kenshi. You can make any match up 9/1 if you speak of it as if every decision one party made was a perfect counter. The MU is probably in his favor, but not by much.

I have it at 7 3 kenshi. As far as the reflect a high level kenshi should be able to do it on reaction

 

[RM Ree]

This might be a dumb question, but can Kenshi confirm off of any lows in Balanced?

 

[WayoftheFist]

This might be a dumb question, but can Kenshi confirm off of any lows in Balanced?

B32.

 

[RM Ree]

Ok, so everytime I face a Kenshi it's pretty pathetic. Other than changing character, how do I go up against Kenshi zoning with GM Sub Zero.

I've been looking at this match under a microscope here, and I've found some things that might help. Balanced Kenshi's zoning looks decent, but once SZ gets in (and he will), he has more mix up options than Kenshi does.

Getting in is just a matter of patience and knowledge, as always. All this chip we're talking about is assuming SZ is blocking the high teleflurry, when in actuality, that should be whiffing over our head most of the time. On top of that, if we do manage to duck a flurry, Sub can either 1: run up on Kenshi for a free 11 xx freeze, or 2: ex ice blast (timing is tight, not recommended). These are from full screen... That's crazy bad for Kenshi. I get that slice is an overhead, but at 24 frames it should be blocked or avoided all together, and I don't feel like that's a threatening mix up. When we're in range for push, Sub can just start blocking and close that gap fast enough during recovery, making Kenshi either retreat or commit to a threatening neutral.

Kenshi has some good strings that leave him +2 or something like that, but no overheads he can confirm off of. Any time he's attacking it looks like we can just block low for the first hit and high for the rest.

So all this meter building and chip damage that made Kenshi so dangerous before is potentially a liability if SZ has stamina.

 

[WayoftheFist]

@RM Crimson Panther