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Question - Sub-Zero Sub Zero against Kenshi zoning

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Ok, so everytime I face a Kenshi it's pretty pathetic. Other than changing character, how do I go up against Kenshi zoning with GM Sub Zero.
Forget GM. Gotta use another variation. The clone is completely useless in that match.
 

WayoftheFist

Cold day in hell...
I play both characters and I don't have an answer for you. Clone does pretty much nothing for you in this mu. If you insist on fighting it with sub I would say change variations. Take the damage of cryomancer or the reduced chip of unbreakable. Understand though... he will win the meter game. Always. Know your frame data and punish what you can with reversal slides. Try to read and duck a teleflurry if you can it's awful on whiff. This is definitely a tough mu.
 

llabslb

R1D1_998
I play both characters and I don't have an answer for you. Clone does pretty much nothing for you in this mu. If you insist on fighting it with sub I would say change variations. Take the damage of cryomancer or the reduced chip of unbreakable. Understand though... he will win the meter game. Always. Know your frame data and punish what you can with reversal slides. Try to read and duck a teleflurry if you can it's awful on whiff. This is definitely a tough mu.
OK, switch to unbreakable. No chip. Great. Now how am I meant to progress towards him. Take a risk doing a slide and hope I don't get punished for it?
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
no

be patient and work your way in slowly walking dashing running etc

the worst thing you can do is get overwhelmed and take stupid risks
This. With no chip damage you don't have to take any risks. Just inch your way in and punish him when you get close.
 

WayoftheFist

Cold day in hell...
Alright. For a tournament setting and I'm in a situation where I'm stuck with GM, any thoughts?
Patience. You get in the same way you get in with unbreakable you're just going to eat chip doing it. Do not even try to put out a clone in neutral. Until he's cornered forget you even have an ice clone and then only put out 100 percent safe clones and use them to bait the kenshi players counter to your clone (he'll most likely check with rising karma or spirit charge. Particularly the ex versions on reaction to you coming in to do something with the setup). If you can finally get him cornered and without meter you can do some damage but even then no unsafe clones you'll eat a full combo meterless into a position reversal. Highest possible level I really can't see this being any better than 3 7 but that's only at the present moment we may find something.
 

XxTheGoblinX

Le_Supreme_
Every time I think hes gonna use tele fury I slide and punish because that move is super unsafe. The slide goes right under the his tele move. And I use the clone to keep him in the corner but watch out for his meter. he might use it for wakeup. Best case scenario is Kenshi is meterless in the corner. Then just pressure and the game is yours.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
Is Cryomancer no good in this situation? I would think that EX Hammer would be useful to go through spirit charge and rising karma.
 

llabslb

R1D1_998
Every time I think hes gonna use tele fury I slide and punish because that move is super unsafe. The slide goes right under the his tele move. And I use the clone to keep him in the corner but watch out for his meter. he might use it for wakeup. Best case scenario is Kenshi is meterless in the corner. Then just pressure and the game is yours.
He can easily use soul push if you go for a slide and you'll be back at square one or he can full combo punish with some enhanced move (forgot what it was called lawl)
 

llabslb

R1D1_998
Is Cryomancer no good in this situation? I would think that EX Hammer would be useful to go through spirit charge and rising karma.
Great for punishing and all but it doesn't help much in the zoning game overall so it's best to stick to unbreakable so you don't get chipped out and you can slowly progress forward
 

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
patience is key in the kenshi match up, also respect EXRisingKarma once you get in, if you dont then prepare to be sent full screen again
 

llabslb

R1D1_998
I faced a Kenshi today and used unbreakable, yes it's easier but it's still a freaking tough match up. I've found that the tools provided for unbreakable are most beneficial when it comes to facing a strong zoners. However, there are some moves that are just so damn hard to avoid and punish like his soul push which has great push back as well as great damage and rising karma MB wakeup he can use to full combo punish. These two moves are the main obstacles that you want to avoid if you manage to get close to him because they can put you back to square one real quick this also counts in general fullscreen zoning.
 
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MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
I faced a Kenshi today and used unbreakable, yes it's easier but it's still a freaking tough match up. I've found that the tools provided for unbreakable are most beneficial when it comes to facing a strong zoners. However, there are some moves that are just so damn hard to avoid and punish like his soul push which has great push back as well as great damage and a spinny enhanced wakeup he can use to full combo punish. These two moves are the main obstacles that you want to avoid if you manage to get close to him because they can put you back to square one real quick this also counts in general fullscreen zoning.
if you are on psn i can add you so you can get some kenshi xp since im a balanced kenshi main since day one.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
You pretty much... change character. Really, this MU is awful for SZ. Like MK9 awful.

Played it million times, GM is completely useless even if i don't have meter (and 99% of the time i have) being in corner means nothing since i just use soul push which will send you full screen. You can't slide since i position myself 3/4 of the screen all the time and wait for it to punish for meterless 30% combo and send you full screen again. I still gonna check you from time to time with run up throw / 4,2,1 ~ 1,1 / b3,2 (hit confirm it if you don't block) and you have to hold that.

Unbreakable / Cryomancer change nothing, you still have to get in, Kesnhi is always ok in being full screen or 3/4 screen and building meter since in this MU i can just throw 2-3 hits into X-ray for 50% like candys if you allow me build meter.

And this is in Balanced.

Kenjutsu offline is even worst for SZ.
 
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Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
Don't listen to everyone, pick GM Sub. Slide your way past the zoning. Put a safe clone and 50/50 him to death. :DOGE

But more seriously, block his zoning then walk or run in a little. Block his zoning and now you're in the range where one wrong read is bad for both you. He could try to zone you but he'd be negative and if punishable you could reversal slide or EX slide through his spirit moves if you prefer. Spirit charge is like -16 so you can for sure punish that same with rising karma. I don't know how punishable the overhead is though. Slide > all his zoning at mid range except spirit charage. Spirit Charge > Slide. BUT Spirit Charge is PUNISHABLE by slide. So that's if you're playing the reads game.

If you get him to the corner. I'm not even joking punish his zoning hard and 50/50 him to death. Make sure you ONLY use clone setups that are safe. You don't need to be going hard everytime because EX bf2 will push you full screen away from Kenshi and you need to work again. It's all about dat oki.

That's my advice, it's not very well thoughtout and some of it's probably not totally correct if you argue petty semantics or whatever. But it will get you on the right path if you want to use GM sub for sure.

Live by the klone, die by the klone.
 

Immortal

Blind justice....
Don't listen to everyone, pick GM Sub. Slide your way past the zoning. Put a safe clone and 50/50 him to death. :DOGE

But more seriously, block his zoning then walk or run in a little. Block his zoning and now you're in the range where one wrong read is bad for both you. He could try to zone you but he'd be negative and if punishable you could reversal slide or EX slide through his spirit moves if you prefer. Spirit charge is like -16 so you can for sure punish that same with rising karma. I don't know how punishable the overhead is though. Slide > all his zoning at mid range except spirit charage. Spirit Charge > Slide. BUT Spirit Charge is PUNISHABLE by slide. So that's if you're playing the reads game.

If you get him to the corner. I'm not even joking punish his zoning hard and 50/50 him to death. Make sure you ONLY use clone setups that are safe. You don't need to be going hard everytime because EX bf2 will push you full screen away from Kenshi and you need to work again. It's all about dat oki.

That's my advice, it's not very well thoughtout and some of it's probably not totally correct if you argue petty semantics or whatever. But it will get you on the right path if you want to use GM sub for sure.

Live by the klone, die by the klone.
If you play by this advice you will die horribly to any Kenshi player who knows that MU.

First of all Spirit Charge is only punishable by slide from up close, anything futher and Kenshi can block it and punish it. And once more, slide is very bad in that MU. Good Kenshi player gonna position himself either far enough so it wont reach or close enough to block it on bait. And every blocked slide will cost you 30% and you gonna be full screen again.

Punish zoning in corner? WTF are you talking about, Kenshi wont be zoning if SZ got him on corner. Kenshi just gonna armor throu anything SZ has, which means again 30% and fullscreen from EX RK~combo or just create space with totally safe EX SC. Also if Kenshi builds 3 bars which he will, SZ have to be super carreful in the corner since i can just throw x-ray from 2-3 hits which is half life less for SZ.

Also depends what variation Kenshi player is using. Kenjutsu recks Sub-Zero from anywhere on the screen and even up close you're at a disadvantage.
 
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Scott The Scot

Where there is smoke, there is cancer.
If you play by this advice you will die horribly to any Kenshi player who knows that MU.

First of all Spirit Charge is only punishable by slide from up close, anything futher and Kenshi can block it and punish it. And once more, slide is very bad in that MU. Good Kenshi player gonna position himself either far enough so it wont reach or close enough to block it on bait. And every blocked slide will cost you 30% and you gonna be full screen again.

Punish zoning in corner? WTF are you talking about, Kenshi wont be zoning if SZ got him on corner. Kenshi just gonna armor throu anything SZ has, which means again 30% and fullscreen from EX RK or just create space with totally safe EX SC.

Also depends what variation Kenshi player is using. Kenjutsu recks Sub-Zero from anywhere on the screen and even up close you're at a disadvantage.
Go with what this guy says. I'm talking out my ass, I play Cassie. :p
 

WayoftheFist

Cold day in hell...
Is Cryomancer no good in this situation? I would think that EX Hammer would be useful to go through spirit charge and rising karma.
2 hit vs 1 hit

Edit: to elaborate it doesn't help when he has bar too. It again relies on you having meter and him not having it and he will always win the meter battle. Cryomancer sub really doesn't build meter well either so you don't really have a lot of it to burn.
 
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llabslb

R1D1_998
Don't listen to everyone, pick GM Sub. Slide your way past the zoning. Put a safe clone and 50/50 him to death. :DOGE

But more seriously, block his zoning then walk or run in a little. Block his zoning and now you're in the range where one wrong read is bad for both you. He could try to zone you but he'd be negative and if punishable you could reversal slide or EX slide through his spirit moves if you prefer. Spirit charge is like -16 so you can for sure punish that same with rising karma. I don't know how punishable the overhead is though. Slide > all his zoning at mid range except spirit charage. Spirit Charge > Slide. BUT Spirit Charge is PUNISHABLE by slide. So that's if you're playing the reads game.

If you get him to the corner. I'm not even joking punish his zoning hard and 50/50 him to death. Make sure you ONLY use clone setups that are safe. You don't need to be going hard everytime because EX bf2 will push you full screen away from Kenshi and you need to work again. It's all about dat oki.

That's my advice, it's not very well thoughtout and some of it's probably not totally correct if you argue petty semantics or whatever. But it will get you on the right path if you want to use GM sub for sure.

Live by the klone, die by the klone.
LOOOOOOL