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Breakthrough - Sub-Zero Still need the patch notes but...

Lokheit

Lokheit

Noob
What we've seen in the kombat kast is a bit undewhelming for Cryo and UB (GM still managed to get the modified klone throw and apparently there will be less hitbox issues so good for him, but it was the other 2 variations that needed some help).

- Cryo is still a punishing based variation with no tools to make opponents respect him or force mistakes (so it's harder to get those punishing opportunities, and nope, he's not a rushdown character just because he has weapons, you try to rushdown with him and you die).

Anything like a string starting with the sword (other characters got recycled animations as new strings, so for example the last 2 hits of F122 as its own string could've been a thing) or increasing the ground pound range of air hammer to make it similar to other aerial pounds... anything to make getting close to him something you have to respect just a little bit, would've been the real deal for this variation.

I guess if there are so many bug fixes as promised, then his F122 into B2 won't randomly throw opponents the other way (or maybe it's still the same) but that's more quality of life stuff rather than a real buff.

If his D2 is changed into a 9 frames uppercut (they didn't go through all the frame data changes) then I guess we kind of have a slight version of that "respect me" move, but I don't think we're getting that.

- UB got a new combo starter at the cost of a preset and a bar, still good I guess as he can start a combo from a long distance, but we need to check the damage scale (it's already a launcher so gravity won't let you get certain combos).

But the thing nobody is talking about is that he got AN INDIRECT NERF in the form of chip damage being reduced over the whole cast, meaning that the effects of Ice Aura are now worse in comparison as all characters got a passive buff against chip damage anyway, so another less reason to pick this variation when its tools aren't even as useful as they used to be.

I'm not really mad, just underwhelmed, I was expecting to see some balance across Subbie's variations, but didn't have my hopes too high given how both were already featured in September's patch, but unless the frame changes when patch notes come are really strong, I don't see them making the jump.

/rant off
 
Lokheit

Lokheit

Noob
Zerodegreez said:
This is Awesome for GM but I'm still a little skeptical. Are we 100% sure NRS doesn't have Any hidden/unmentioned Nerfs come March 1 or is this Really 'All' there is for All Sub-zeros?
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We still have to wait. They might have increased damage scale from klone shatter a bit, but if they didn't directly mention the removal of corner shatter and corner klone combos, I think they're safe.

We also need to know if the "everyone is getting faster pokes" applies to Subbie too, he's already getting eaten alive in poke battles on his non klone variations (so if he stays the same and everyone gets faster pokes he will have to run from close range as fast as he can) and currently there is no use for his D1 being 9 frames like his D3 but a mid instead of a safe low so that's a good candidate to be one of those 7/6 frames pokes everyone is getting now (and that would even help with klone shatter juggles as timing would be better).
 
IceNinja

IceNinja

Assassin
Wouldn't the universal change to chip damage and meter build on chip be considered an indirect buff to unbreakable? Not only is there even less chip damage but now they don't build as much meter. Either way I'm going to be playing a lot more unbreakable.
 
Lokheit

Lokheit

Noob
IceNinja said:
Wouldn't the universal change to chip damage and meter build on chip be considered an indirect buff to unbreakable? Not only is there even less chip damage but now they don't build as much meter. Either way I'm going to be playing a lot more unbreakable.
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It's an indirect nerf because you don't need to even play Unbreakable to get reduced chip damage, meaning there is one less positive thing about playing him when the chip damage is closer to what the rest of the cast gets anyway.
 
crosshair271

crosshair271

Sub-Xerox
I hope something else comes besides these small things which almost change nothing. The more I look at it, Tremor is what Sub should have had for his variations. Crystalline is what Unbreakable should have been with 1 hit of armor for Aura and Rock Drop is what Cryo should have had with his Ice shower. Honestly if they gave Cryo Ice Shower, and a better use for Air Hammer it would be a strong variation. Unbreakable if it got Ice Puddle it would fix our Parry doesn't stop jump ins problem. I still won't get these changes since I'm PC but honestly I'm done with NRS not knowing how to make everyone viable.
 
Apex Kano

Apex Kano

Kano Commando main MKX
Lokheit said:
It's an indirect nerf because you don't need to even play Unbreakable to get reduced chip damage, meaning there is one less positive thing about playing him when the chip damage is closer to what the rest of the cast gets anyway.
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I see it as a buff, if you have aura then you not taking any damage at all. Thats big time I believe.
 
boba_buster

boba_buster

Noob saibot
Cryo is never gonna be viable the way he is , is not a matter of him being a weak character , it's just strictly mu based. He doesn't have enough winning MU's. If he had an extra tool that would give him the edge to a few of the characters that he has even MU's with then we would have a real reason to use him
 
boba_buster

boba_buster

Noob saibot
I personally think he jus needs a ranged normal to help him compete in the neutral , he is neutered by the fact that his sword normals all start with punches
 
RM Ree

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
They did say something about less chip damage = building less meter. Maybe that was hinting at opponents building 0 meter when doing 0 chip damage? Wishful thinking.
 
Goat-City

Goat-City

Banned
The most annoying thing about Unbreakable still being terrible is that they already have templates for fixing him with Assassin Kitana and Blood God Kotal. Assassin's parry only has 18 frames of recovery and is holdable to make it harder to punish but it doesn't start combos, while Kotal's parry can start combos and gives a damage increase. Unbreakable's parry needs these effects put together except the damage increase, and the EX parry should only have 5-10 frames of recovery. And parries still need to work on jump ins but they should not have backwards hit boxes like they do now.

The ice aura just needs to take Blood God Kotal's obsidian totem's effects. Gains him increased meter on block and on hit, and the EX version would still reduce damage like it currently does. With all that and the new EX slide he would be pretty good. Another idea is that ice burst when it has aura on it could be safer on block or slightly plus. Just an idea.

Also, regular ice aura should be 2 frames faster on start up just to make his combos a bit easier. Damage scaling on aura should either stay or be slightly reduced.
 
ando1184

ando1184

Noob
RM Ree said:
They did say something about less chip damage = building less meter. Maybe that was hinting at opponents building 0 meter when doing 0 chip damage? Wishful thinking.
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I like the sound of this, my fingers are crossed. At least this would bring some originality to how aura works for SZ now.
 
Samsara

Samsara

Resident Cynic
I think that anyone who wished Unbreakable would have finally gotten justice should honestly move on to Cryo Sub. That the only Sub variation outside of boring GM that looks worth playing. Cryo is blah and Unbreakable is now confirmed for trash.

Seriously, all they do with unbreakable is give him more ways to spend meter he doesn't have for damage that is far and away the worst out of the entire cast. Hopefully they adjusted parry or else regular Sub is dead in the water as far as I'm concerned. Sick and tired of GM.
 
Gilbagz

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Cabjoy said:
@Gilbagz you gotta release that guide so we can stop this nonsense haha.
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LOL
I'll get to making it eventually. I'll forever be the cryo up player :L
Can't brain dead with him for sure, but hes still ridiculously good
No oppressive bullying guessing game like grand master, but played read wise god damn the character is insane
Lesser quan with much better defensive options
 
Temp

Temp

Salmon. Otters. The Bringer.
Lokheit said:
you try to rushdown with [Cry] and you die.
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I don't agree with this. You can certainly rushdown with Cryo, but you gotta play the footsie game. You gotta space your d+4. You gotta utilize your post-run options. Is it the best rushdown? No, it's not. But his footsies are amazing. He has amazing whiff punishes with B+2 and F+4, 2. Standing 1 and Ex-Burst are great anti-airs that give you nice damage. One blocked cross-up, and your opponent has to guess or lose 30+ percent. That's the key: you have to take some risks, but if you get the knockdown (which is not unreasonable to get), then your opponent has to guess right or eat a respectably-sized dick.

He's not perfect, and he's not the best, but he's extremely solid. His only flaw is that he's honest. I don't think he has a single unwinnable match-up outside of Grandmaster.
 
Lokheit

Lokheit

Noob
Temp said:
I don't agree with this. You can certainly rushdown with Cryo, but you gotta play the footsie game. You gotta space your d+4. You gotta utilize your post-run options. Is it the best rushdown? No, it's not. But his footsies are amazing. He has amazing whiff punishes with B+2 and F+4, 2. Standing 1 and Ex-Burst are great anti-airs that give you nice damage. One blocked cross-up, and your opponent has to guess or lose 30+ percent. That's the key: you have to take some risks, but if you get the knockdown (which is not unreasonable to get), then your opponent has to guess right or eat a respectably-sized dick.

He's not perfect, and he's not the best, but he's extremely solid. His only flaw is that he's honest. I don't think he has a single unwinnable match-up outside of Grandmaster.
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I agree those are very good tools, the thing is, as you said, those are tools for punishing or anti airing, and he has some very good ones, but those aren't rushdown tools (at least not what I understand as rushdown). He has very good tools to keep momentum once he gets the first punish (specially when the opponent has no meter) but he can't go full on offense if he wants to win and he will get eaten alive if he tries to get close instead of keeping the distance. He has to capitalize over his opponents mistakes and the main problem is that the opponent doesn't need to commit to risky strategies against him (so less mistakes) because Cryo doesn't have much to create that respect.

PrimBloodGhost said:
I see it as a buff, if you have aura then you not taking any damage at all. Thats big time I believe.
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Before if opponent took X chip damage, you took 0 damage, so before you took X less damage.

Now opponent take, say 2/3 of pre-patch X chip damage and you take 0 (like before the patch), so now the difference is just 2/3 of X. This change made the amount of damage aura reduces compared to the rest of the cast lower than before, so that's why I say it's one reason less to pick him as the comparative power of the aura is worse than it used to be and you could take any other character and take less chip damage than before the patch.
 
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God Confirm

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Cabjoy said:
How long will it take you guys to realise cryo is fine? Need to lab more people.
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you just saying it, or losing to it, does not make it so. Character isn't bad, there is just no point to pick him, hes severely outclassed
 
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