Question - Grandmaster some changes the we'd like to see

[champdee]

I think most of us can agree with b33 ~iceball landing on everyone. There is no reason for it to only work on female characters.

Secondly, ex iceclone needs to be adjusted so that it comes out on hit.
So that you can reliably use ex iceclone and know that it will come out regardless if on hit or on a blockstring.

Other than that, he is fine as he is IMO.

yeah I agree,12~freeze and f33~freeze too... why not right? Falls into the same category if you know what i mean? yeah ex clone too kinda forgot about that, mainly because it doesn't seem like it'll be fixed, or hard to fix... the ones mentioned are easy fixes

 

[RunwayMafia]

@M.D.

 

[champdee]

We need to look at that knee!

 

[looktotheluna]

Not jacking your thread Champ but wanted to say this:

The retail build we got on release back in April was a beta, an early pre-sub beta in fact. (rushed out) as with everything else is these days since developers can patch their code on consoles easily now than it was 2005 era. NRS knew what needed to be fixed and balanced way before public release, yet also received help from the community too (watching tournaments and streams) with bug findings and balance issues overlooked by their own QA testers.

My point is, them as a business have moved on to other projects because MKX is now 6 months into it's shelf life. As a result, and from working in the games industry in my previous career, I cannot see any more normalizing fixes, buffs or whatever you want to call them now at this version of the code.

Patching and submitting their updates to Sony and Xbox QA's is time consuming and costs money. The only patches I can foresee are the KP2 and maybe a few tweaks here and there, but I'd be very surprised if a character(s) now got some further major changes to their variations. It's nice to think they could but I'm just looking at it from an ex QA tester's perspective and business decisions.

Peace out!

 

[EntropicByDesign]

DIdn't think i'd even have to point this out but... mid screen he LOSES bad out damaged, your only chance is in corner... now next time you watch a mkx match count the seconds fought in midscreen then the corner see which is more. Oh, and not to mention a LOT of other characters do great damage corner or not, ermac for example.. good in the corner and midscreen just an example.That's just one of his problems

Just an example

I always felt that his weak damage was the price he paid for what GM does, which is force the opponent to play GM's game and to utterly control the pace of the match. Now, I know some characters can get around this, but for the most part, GM regulates the match. And he may lose in raw damage but he sure feels like he wins the nuetral against all but the few bad MUs he has.. Clone as a midscreen tool is.. Incredible.

Ermac does do excellent damage anywhere on the screen, but he doesn't have a giant wall of ice to utterly control the match.. Nor does he have good armor and such, but just saying.

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but clone is arguably one of, if not the strongest single skill in the game, one that by its mere existence, totally shuts down entire characters and variations (SG Kotal, comes to mind), aside from bug fixes, using it should come with aa price. Sub converting in to 30%+ off everything midscreen is kinda terrifying.

 

[champdee]

Even though Sub's midscreen damage is a flaw a lot of sub players have complained about doesn't mean everyone knows about it. You can't begin a buff/nerf conversation without at least explaining where you're coming from first. It shows there was some thinking involved besides "what do I want?" Makes things more understandable and also helps to make your views respectable.

If we're comparing Ermac to Sub. MoS Ermac (the one I considered to be the most played) takes a risky guess to pump out damage. Sub doesn't have to take risky guesses. Clone also makes thing safe and in some cases giving him free offense. Two different characters so of course they'll have to different lists of advantages and disadvantages. Sub's sucky midscreen damage is a pretty acceptable tradeoff for having clone (with multiple uses) and a 50/50.

As for bugfixes, sure I'm all for making the game work. I'd love for Kotal's 11 to not whiff on crouch blockers so I can actually use it. I'd say the b33 thing could be a bugfix. But I don't think clone needs any changes besides the wonky activation it can sometimes have.

ermac was an example... The reasoning should be self explanatory.. and I'm not comparing them.

 

[One Inch Punch]

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but clone is arguably one of, if not the strongest single skill in the game, one that by its mere existence, totally shuts down entire characters and variations (SG Kotal, comes to mind), aside from bug fixes, using it should come with aa price. Sub converting in to 30%+ off everything midscreen is kinda terrifying.

the only thing sub can convert into 30% is a full combo , not even a fast punisher cause your starter for this damage is b12. they should buff 4~5% his combos in an airborne opponent . not asking for 30% everything

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'd interested in what knowledgeable Sub players think he really needs outside bug fixes.

Does he need anything but bug fixes?

If I was to change GM

* EX-Clone doesn't go away on block
* Both clones have the same start-up and come out consistently, with less recovery on EX
* Nothing else? B33~Iceball connecting on males midscreen would be nice but I'd rather not push this one, knowing how NRS works they are just as likely to make it consistent by making it not connect females anymore instead. And make it stop working in the corner on males as well while they are at it.

 

[One Inch Punch]

* Both clones have the same start-up and come out consistently, with less recovery on EX

if that happen , everybody will lose their minds

 

[I GOT HANDS]

DIdn't think i'd even have to point this out but... mid screen he LOSES bad out damaged, your only chance is in corner... now next time you watch a mkx match count the seconds fought in midscreen then the corner see which is more. Oh, and not to mention a LOT of other characters do great damage corner or not, ermac for example.. good in the corner and midscreen just an example.That's just one of his problems

Just an example

That being said he has excellent wall carry, and gets the entire wall carry string off every freeze. Clone + 50/50 + Snowball not only gives him much more opprtunities than practically any other character to get a entire wall carry combo off, except for maybe Covops Sonya, and being that freeze lets him cross up first and choose a side, he is really well built to get opponents in the corner. His midscreen damage is balanced around him having a Clone.

 

[RM Ree]

People would lose their effing minds if these buffs happened. It's already pulling teeth trying to tell people SZ isn't broken. This has me laughing pretty hard (not in a bad way), great thread imo. I'll explain why I feel this way below.

- Meterless freeze off b33/ 12/ f33. We would be throwing multiple X-rays/ breakers per round if we didn't have to use meter for low (subsequently, any hit for that matter, as one confirm leads to corner, leads to 40%+ meterless) conversions. I think we make out like bandits having a meterless mid screen freeze on anyone, from just b33.

- Clone safe off any string. But people rarely punish clone cancels as is, and when they start they can be baited, or even frame trapped. Punishing clone is the core of GM match ups, opponents need this. In a way, so do we. We don't want a question (clone) without an answer (armor). Besides, we can make clone safe for a bar off any string besides maybe 123.

- Bigger clone hit box. Less of a stretch as it seems like a visual flaw when opponents poke straight through clone. Still more of a spacing issue on our part though, as we have a soft 50/50 from behind clone (b2 combo, d4 massive hit adv).

- Clone not whiffing close to opponents. NRS just buffed this validity check somewhat and clone is working as designed, or at least it's more reliable than ever (with the exception of b12 xx statue on hit). Any more leeway on this and we'd be insta-gibbing opponents with the best and faster space control MK has ever seen.

- Pressure string +/ safe on block. F12 is +2 currently. F4 xx statue is also positive, ~10f. Pretty decent for a bar. We're not Liu Kang, we shouldn't jail very hard. Not in the conventional ways anyway.

We don't need "buffs," but perhaps "fixes," as it's always been. I would suggest only the following.

- The clone coming out on b12 hit should be consistent. This would give 35% combos mud screen, which is pretty huge for GM.

- Corner shatter auto-block should be disabled. Makes clone clone shatter combos (45% from b33/12/ f33) finally possible. There's no reason shatter should have 0 hit stun in normal combos.

That's all I've got. Hopefully it makes sense.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

if that happen , everybody will lose their minds

Why? There is like a 2 frame difference in start-up, and regular Clone is the consistent one at 8f, so what I'm asking for is technically a nerf, putting EX-Clone from 6f startup to 8f, just to fix its bugs.

You are probably right, it is TYM after all, but I have to say, how could anybody be upset by this?

 

[One Inch Punch]

Why? There is like a 2 frame difference in start-up, and regular Clone is the consistent one at 8f, so what I'm asking for is technically a nerf, putting EX-Clone from 6f startup to 8f, just to fix its bugs.

You are probably right, it is TYM after all, but I have to say, how could anybody be upset by this?

thought you asked for less start up in regular clone

 

[champdee]

Not jacking your thread Champ but wanted to say this:

The retail build we got on release back in April was a beta, an early pre-sub beta in fact. (rushed out) as with everything else is these days since developers can patch their code on consoles easily now than it was 2005 era. NRS knew what needed to be fixed and balanced way before public release, yet also received help from the community too (watching tournaments and streams) with bug findings and balance issues overlooked by their own QA testers.

My point is, them as a business have moved on to other projects because MKX is now 6 months into it's shelf life. As a result, and from working in the games industry in my previous career, I cannot see any more normalizing fixes, buffs or whatever you want to call them now at this version of the code.

Patching and submitting their updates to Sony and Xbox QA's is time consuming and costs money. The only patches I can foresee are the KP2 and maybe a few tweaks here and there, but I'd be very surprised if a character(s) now got some further major changes to their variations. It's nice to think they could but I'm just looking at it from an ex QA tester's perspective and business decisions.

Peace out!

It's ok.. I made this because of KP2 coming... which likely we'll see some fixes, etc.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

ermac was an example... The reasoning should be self explanatory.. and I'm not comparing them.

I was using Ermac as an example of trade-offs. Ermac has the damage you want, but pays the price in other ways. Too high a price really, given his general positioning on tier lists. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with Ermac's place on lists, just giving an example. Any character in the game with powerful tools should have powerful trade-offs. If a couple don't, that, to me, is an oversight in design and not something other characters should strive to achieve.

Now, real quick, I don't think Sub is broken, nor do I think he's like tippity top tier either. I think he is damn strong, and a very good character that is *just* missing out on being a truly dominating force in tournaments and the like. I agree he needs something(s), perhaps *just* fixes, perhaps a buff? I don't know exactly, but I don't think damage is something he needs. As stated before, he can put you in the corner in one combo a huge portion of the time and the nature of his freeze is such that you have ample time to side switch (usually) and his corner damage is just fine. Its very fine. Subs whole point, as I see it, is to control the neutral and put the opponent in the corner. Once there, not only does his damage become perfectly inline with almost everyone elses, it exceeds many other characters and with his tool-set its harder to escape from that situation than it is against almost anyone else. I'm a scrub, but I know that out of every member of the cast I have any experience with, GM Sub is the most difficult to escape once I'm cornered. And buffing his mid-screen damage will push his corner damage even high and that's not something he needs. An extra 4-5% is a *lot* of damage over the course of a fight. More damage isn't something SZ needs.

 

[champdee]

I always felt that his weak damage was the price he paid for what GM does, which is force the opponent to play GM's game and to utterly control the pace of the match. Now, I know some characters can get around this, but for the most part, GM regulates the match. And he may lose in raw damage but he sure feels like he wins the nuetral against all but the few bad MUs he has.. Clone as a midscreen tool is.. Incredible.

Ermac does do excellent damage anywhere on the screen, but he doesn't have a giant wall of ice to utterly control the match.. Nor does he have good armor and such, but just saying.

No increased damage in the OP, just b33, 12, and f33~freeze working midscreen that's all. spending a bar for low damage is stupid

Again, maybe I'm wrong, but clone is arguably one of, if not the strongest single skill in the game, one that by its mere existence, totally shuts down entire characters and variations (SG Kotal, comes to mind), aside from bug fixes, using it should come with aa price. Sub converting in to 30%+ off everything midscreen is kinda terrifying.

No increased damage in the OP, just b33, 12, and f33~freeze working midscreen that's all. spending a bar for low damage is stupidNo increased damage in the OP, just b33, 12, and f33~freeze working midscreen that's all. spending a bar for low damage is stupid

 

[EntropicByDesign]

No increased damage in the OP, just b33, 12, and f33~freeze working midscreen that's all. spending a bar for low damage is stupidNo increased damage in the OP, just b33, 12, and f33~freeze working midscreen that's all. spending a bar for low damage is stupid

Im not saying you requested increased damage, One Inch Punch did I think and I was just replying to both of you together, sorry for not being more clear, thats all i was arguing against, was the more damage thing.

 

[buyacushun]

ermac was an example... The reasoning should be self explanatory.. and I'm not comparing them.

Using ermac as an example for damage is comparing his damage against sub zeros. So if you are going to bring up Ermac's damage than you have to bring up that Sub has way more controlling tools than ermac and sub is also much more safe than ermac.

If Sub got more combos, a better clone that also made him always safe and pressure string(s) then something has got to go. The first thing probably being damage.

@I GOT HANDS If ex clone doesn't go away on block, wouldn't that allow sub zero to take control of the match at the cost of a bar? Some characters already get dominated by it. I feel that'd be a bit much. I wouldn't mind though if EX worked like this: You'd spend the bar to be quicker with armor allowing you to use usually punishable strings and possibly bait your opponent into getting frozen. From what I know about sub, it seems like that was supposed to be the case. Would be an incredibly powerful tool but at least it would cost a bar. That seems to be NRS's M.O. for balance.

@Ree301 45% combos while trapping people in the corner with clone? Get pushed to the corner and sub needs 2 right low risk guesses. That's too much. I agree with your explanations on the suggested stuff. And also with the idea that sub needs fixes more than anything.

 

[One Inch Punch]

Im not saying you requested increased damage, One Inch Punch did I think and I was just replying to both of you together, sorry for not being more clear, thats all i was arguing against, was the more damage thing.

do you think 17% is a fair and good damage when u catch a jumping opponent with the clone
( 18% if u end with ice burst ), when almost everybody can just uppercut it and do 14% ? and sub zero GM anti air combos has low low damage.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Using ermac as an example for damage is comparing his damage against sub zeros. So if you are going to bring up Ermac's damage than you have to bring up that Sub has way more controlling tools than ermac and sub is also much more safe than ermac.

If Sub got more combos, a better clone that also made him always safe and pressure string(s) then something has got to go. The first thing probably being damage.

@I GOT HANDS If ex clone doesn't go away on block, wouldn't that allow sub zero to take control of the match at the cost of a bar? Some characters already get dominated by it. I feel that'd be a bit much. I wouldn't mind though if EX worked like this: You'd spend the bar to be quicker with armor allowing you to use usually punishable strings and possibly bait your opponent into getting frozen. From what I know about sub, it seems like that was supposed to be the case. Would be an incredibly powerful tool but at least it would cost a bar. That seems to be NRS's M.O. for balance.

@Ree301 45% combos while trapping people in the corner with clone? Get pushed to the corner and sub needs 2 right low risk guesses. That's too much. I agree with your explanations on the suggested stuff. And also with the idea that sub needs fixes more than anything.

Well. I guess it allows him to spend a bar to take control of 5 seconds of a match. And honestly it's not like it makes anything safer, I mean the only difference is on block, it just allows him to keep the investment he spent a bar on instead of just losing it to a poke.

 

[RagingRicans]

Sub is fine tbh.

What would benefit Sub is a universal change to woman hitboxes.

No other character has to tailor their combos and conversions as much as sub.

Ice ball connecting off a f42 and a b33 would be nice, but not necessary.

I would like b12xxexKlone to be more consistent.

But ... Umm yeah. He's pretty gravy and I think he's underrated still.

 

[champdee]

People would lose their effing minds if these buffs happened. It's already pulling teeth trying to tell people SZ isn't broken. This has me laughing pretty hard (not in a bad way), great thread imo. I'll explain why I feel this way below.

- Meterless freeze off b33/ 12/ f33. We would be throwing multiple X-rays/ breakers per round if we didn't have to use meter for low (subsequently, any hit for that matter, as one confirm leads to corner, leads to 40%+ meterless) conversions. I think we make out like bandits having a meterless mid screen freeze on anyone, from just b33.

- Clone safe off any string. But people rarely punish clone cancels as is, and when they start they can be baited, or even frame trapped. Punishing clone is the core of GM match ups, opponents need this. In a way, so do we. We don't want a question (clone) without an answer (armor). Besides, we can make clone safe for a bar off any string besides maybe 123.

- Bigger clone hit box. Less of a stretch as it seems like a visual flaw when opponents poke straight through clone. Still more of a spacing issue on our part though, as we have a soft 50/50 from behind clone (b2 combo, d4 massive hit adv).

- Clone not whiffing close to opponents. NRS just buffed this validity check somewhat and clone is working as designed, or at least it's more reliable than ever (with the exception of b12 xx statue on hit). Any more leeway on this and we'd be insta-gibbing opponents with the best and faster space control MK has ever seen.

- Pressure string +/ safe on block. F12 is +2 currently. F4 xx statue is also positive, ~10f. Pretty decent for a bar. We're not Liu Kang, we shouldn't jail very hard. Not in the conventional ways anyway.

We don't need "buffs," but perhaps "fixes," as it's always been. I would suggest only the following.

- The clone coming out on b12 hit should be consistent. This would give 35% combos mud screen, which is pretty huge for GM.

- Corner shatter auto-block should be disabled. Makes clone clone shatter combos (45% from b33/12/ f33) finally possible. There's no reason shatter should have 0 hit stun in normal combos.

That's all I've got. Hopefully it makes sense.[/QUOTE

ehh,, tanya says hi with the meterbuilding thing... and i don't think that would be a problem at all for sub, I agree the majority of things I've said in OP are fixes bascially.. and it makes sense... appreciate the input. f12 is +2 the pushback make it hard to do anything off of that's why I mentioned bringing in the good ol 212.. and ppl punish clone with armor, ermacs lift, etc... I'm not asking for liu kang pressure... just mk9 esque pressure.. ya know what I mean? hmm,, maybe make 242 safe, i dunno... 'least give unbreakable 212 string jeeze lol

 

[champdee]

Sub is fine tbh.

What would benefit Sub is a universal change to woman hitboxes.

No other character has to tailor their combos and conversions as much as sub.

Ice ball connecting off a f42 and a b33 would be nice, but not necessary.

I would like b12xxexKlone to be more consistent.

But ... Umm yeah. He's pretty gravy and I think he's underrated still.

Yeahhh f42~freeze should work too... man they rushed this character

 

[One Inch Punch]

Yeahhh f42~freeze should work too... man they rushed this character

that would be great!

 

[zoofs]

suggest something

GM is fine as is, only thing I would ever want anymore is some form of 100% consistent corner game on females similar to males which would require an entire hitbox overhaul

b12 ex clone being more consistent as well would be cool but isn't necessary once again nor do I care really

edit: ricans beat me to it and I seriously didn't read anything on second page