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solutions for sonics "air tech" problem - no armor?

You shouldn't be rewarded with a full combo punish because your opponent actually outsmarted you and opened you up. It makes no fucking sense. The game should reset the neutral state at worst. Make them stay on the ground longer or make the attacker recover more quickly.

Also Fatal Blow should NOT recharge until it lands. It's a 2 button press and the only 'effort' you're making to get it is getting wrecked. If it whiffs or get blocked it should be GONE. In its current state it's the definition of a scrubby mechanic.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
Yes, if you are conditioned, then you lost the yomi. That's part of the depth. When you remove the ability to condition a person on the mechanic itself, you are only making it simpler to play, not necessarily better.
Yeah I guess that's where we differ. I'm all for mechanics that call for the conditioning of opponents and adding depth, but I don't see how being forced to make 50/50 guesses during your own combo adds anything of value. It's my humble opinion that falling out should be a defensive tool instead of instantly putting you on offense, especially since it requires 'defensive' resources.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Yeah I guess that's where we differ. I'm all for mechanics that call for the conditioning of opponents and adding depth, but I don't see how being forced to make 50/50 guesses during your own combo adds anything of value. It's my humble opinion that falling out should be a defensive tool instead of instantly putting you on offense, especially since it requires 'defensive' resources.
I know Scorpion is your character, but did you try Skarlet or Baraka in the beta? It may change your view on it a bit since they aren't posing for a magazine on whiff.
 

Xelz

Go over there!
What irks me about this mechanic is that it applies exclusively to juggle combos, which feels arbitrary at best. So characters with strong grounded combos can go nuts, while characters that rely more on juggle combos will have to hold back or potentially get full combo punished. Even if breakaways reset to neutral, it still gimps air juggles compared to grounded combos.

If this mechanic remains, then either ground combo-based characters will need a nerf or juggle characters will need a buff, which feels weird having to screw with balance so much over a single universal mechanic that doesn't universally apply to all characters equally. Whether breakaways allow for full punishes, reset to neutral, or go away, whatever NRS decides I hope the mechanic works identically for juggle and grounded combos.
 
I know we can't react to it, but to say the move shouldn't have armor when if you anticipate it, you can counter or block it. A lot of it has to do with luck because you're reading what they're going to do. If you're ONLY talking about counter poking then yeah it's impossible. So what's the solution? Don't stay in their face when they have the FB and play it safe. Problem solved.

In all your posts on this forum, it seems you can't have a disagreement with someone without being salty and insult them. That's not gonna change anything, it just makes me not care what you're trying to say.
you are the one who insulted me first . you doing projection on me woman ?

i usualy very respectful with people and i even said its just my opinion and im not complaining i played the stress test and worked around it i just said i can make it better and i gived solutions . not just throwing half ass bullshit. all i said is facts and frame data , numbers dont lie.

so dealing with an advancing unreactible armored 40% no execution move by just not staying infront ? well its exactly what my point is its too strong for no risk at all.

good luck trying to stuff it online with the 4 frame lag compasation that mk11 net code has right now it will mean you only have 1 frame to stuff it.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
you are the one who insulted me first . you doing projection on me woman ?

i usualy very respectful with people and i even said its just my opinion and im not complaining i played the stress test and worked around it i just said i can make it better and i gived solutions . not just throwing half ass bullshit. all i said is facts and frame data , numbers dont lie.

so dealing with an advancing unreactible armored 40% no execution move by just not staying infront ? well its exactly what my point is its too strong for no risk at all.

good luck trying to stuff it online with the 4 frame lag compasation that mk11 net code has right now it will mean you only have 1 frame to stuff it.
I don't think pointing out something is salty is insulting, but if that hurt you, I apologize.

I gave you facts too friend, there are ways to work around it as you said: play it safe.

What irks me the most is not the armor, or how quick it is, it's the fact that it requires no meter.
 
I don't think pointing out something is salty is insulting, but if that hurt you, I apologize.

I gave you facts too friend, there are ways to work around it as you said: play it safe.

What irks me the most is not the armor, or how quick it is, it's the fact that it requires no meter.
nah before that , you insulted me by quoting me and laughing at my comment that ive said baraka fb is unreactible and it is.. and then later one admite it yourself. anyway forget it. i dont have the energy to waste on explaining it any further. you enjoy it then fine for you. pointing false information will hurt people more than your ego on twitter.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
I know Scorpion is your character, but did you try Skarlet or Baraka in the beta? It may change your view on it a bit since they aren't posing for a magazine on whiff.
I'm not a Scorpion diehard or anything (I know, with the pic and all lol). He's in my top 3 for MKX yeah, but then I use 15 characters or so. But nah I didn't have time to venture into Skarlet, messed with Baraka a bit. Probably would have done more if there was a practice mode, but that defeats the purpose of an online stress test right?

I plan on messing with a lot of characters once the game launches (took 3 days off from work) and if it turns out Scorp is the only character that really gets screwed as far as juggling goes, I'll probably just drop him flat out. But I've already seen Johnny getting screwed by it and Sonya looks to be crazy juggle heavy so I anticipate her having issues with it as well.

I just don't want to see ANY character get punished for continuing a combo, and I don't want to see players stopping combos short/ending with d2 because they're afraid of getting their ass kicked for continuing their combo.

As it stands, characters with a more grounded approach to combos are looking pretty good right about now. Less risk.
 
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Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
nah before that , you insulted me by quoting me and laughing at my comment that ive said baraka fb is unreactible and it is.. and then later one admite it yourself. anyway forget it. i dont have the energy to waste on explaining it any further. you enjoy it then fine for you. pointing false information will hurt people more than your ego on twitter.
It's not unreactable in EVERY situation. ;)
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
I'm not a Scorpion diehard or anything (I know, with the pic and all lol). He's in my top 3 for MKX yeah, but then I use 15 characters or so. But nah I didn't have time to venture into Skarlet, messed with Baraka a bit. Probably would have done more if there was a practice mode, but that defeats the purpose of an online stress test right?

I plan on messing with a lot of characters once the game launches (took 3 days off from work) and if it turns out Scorp is the only character that really gets screwed as far as juggling goes, I'll probably just drop him flat out. But I've already seen Johnny getting screwed by it (nut punch recovery) and Sonya looks to be crazy juggle heavy so I anticipate her having issues with it as well.

I just don't want to see ANY character get punished for continuing a combo, and I don't want to see players stopping combos short/ending with d2 because they're afraid of getting their ass kicked for continuing their combo.

As it stands, characters with a more grounded approach to combos are looking pretty good right about now. Less risk.
Ah ok I see.

So the characters you named, Scorpion, Sonya, Johnny. Characters who appear to have some of the strongest options we've seen offensively, have to put more thought into how they enforce that offense, while still having options to double down on it if done correctly. It may be more risk when the opponent has two bars, but also they operate with more reward offensively. I'd bet someone like Jade for example won't have the issue seen with Scorpion and Johnny during opponent's escape, because her design is different and her offensive potential is significantly less than theirs. Seems intentionally designed as a check to keep offense from overpowering the defensive characters.

The alternative to me is even more scary, mainly, I don't want another MKX. Facing Scorpion/Baraka players doing 2 KB near 50% combos in what felt like regularity, every other combo it seemed almost (hyperbole here). Many times playing I used my D Bar for AMP tele, or a WU or whatnot, so I didn't have two bars to break and had to hold the damage. Easily stuck holding over 40% midscreen too many times to count, almost every match, that Skarlet can't do in return. Her KB's are from parry, from a two poke hit that sends them far, etc, not the KBs that Scorp/Baraka were doing into insane damage and combo extensions. Let alone the other combo potential. I already had to hold it when down the two bars, and only when I had the two would they sometimes have to go for the "lesser" (say 25%) combo if they felt I would break. Then I'm guessing into using my WU, doing a roll, or holding the block button.

If it's removed or made into a "neutral reset", characters like Jade and Skarlet might get smoked up close. Skarlet already seems much weaker up close than Baraka/Scorpion, does a good amount less damage, and can barely even follow up a D1 on hit. I imagine Jade to be similar up close. If the mechanic changes too heavily I can't picture the characters being built more defensively being that strong in comparison to the ones built to oppress. It would make the Johnny and company guys that much stronger.
 

OnlineSkunk

Mortal
What about a delayed wake up after flipping out, I know the delayed wake up would have to be long enough because moves like Scorpion spear takes too long to recover. You can flip out on reaction so it's either a) Delayed wake up b) It cost both bar of defensive meter / both or at least a bar of offensive meter c) Bring back combo breaker or d) Remove it from the game.
 

kabelfritz

Master
What about a delayed wake up after flipping out, I know the delayed wake up would have to be long enough because moves like Scorpion spear takes too long to recover. You can flip out on reaction so it's either a) Delayed wake up b) It cost both bar of defensive meter / both or at least a bar of offensive meter c) Bring back combo breaker or d) Remove it from the game.
pretty weird idea would be to make the knockdown as long as the active opponents move, changing dynamically. its just an idea though.
 

Onilordasmodeus

My GT: UncappedWheel82
I think Breakaway needs to be adjusted.
Option 3:
Make breakaway cost 2 of each offensive/defensive meter draining that players resources for the very powerful get out of jail card.
In addition to the cost of offensive and defensive bars make the Regen have a 20 second cooldown before it starts to Regen normally.
This makes each bar take 30 seconds to refill.
I like Option 3. Making break-away cost all of your bar would kill 2 birds with 1 stone. It would make it so you are less likely to see it in game, but also make it so you can't get crazy damage on a punish. Plus if you DO get baited, then you'll have to really think about not doing it at the right time again.

I think a change like this, along with making the U+3 option off the Flawless Block, would be ideal. Your 2 strongest defensive option, your potential game changers, are still powerful and can win you the game in certain circumstances, but it wont be possible to abuse them, nor will you be able to get crazy damage of them (making this strong defensive option into a strong defensive AND offensive option).
 

OnlineSkunk

Mortal
pretty weird idea would be to make the knockdown as long as the active opponents move, changing dynamically. its just an idea though.
That would fix the problem but at that point they might as well just bring back combo breakers. I think making it cost all bars is the best solution because otherwise you would still lose half your health by a Baraka with gutted or whatever its damage is when the game comes out.
 

Derico

Banned
Solution 1: Both fall (this can create a neutral)
Solution 2: More time on the floor (2 seconds more) before wake up.
Solution 3: Remove
Solution 4: Extreme long airtech (2 jumps backwards distance) with armor
Solution 5: Extreme roll backwards (2 rolls distance) with armor
 

Zaccel

Mortal
This is an interesting discussion of an interesting mechanic.

I like the look of breakaway, but I do suspect it'll look different in a year from now. Perhaps HKD, or perhaps a different distance when falling. I think that can happen, but I don't see any changes coming to affect the armour and meters and hope it stays that way.

I wonder if some lean on the "whiff Spear, get rekt" example just because Scorpion not being able to "freely" combo into it feels 'off' at first blush. But daaaamn dude forget spear, watch them Breakaway into a 36-second Misery Blade blender and tell me that's 'off'
 

Derico

Banned
The core is done, it will be very difficult to revert.
Even the dash is complicated... If you dash faster than u walk, u can do a lot more combos, so the game will be completely broken.

Late reveal, late feedback.
Now its too late to fix the major issues.
 

JagoMIH

Apprentice
Maybe instead of doing breakaways, you could spend the 2 bars of defense meter to "air block" or "air armor". You would still take damage from the combo, just a little bit less.

Either that or breakers, or nothing...but would like to see a new mechanic.
 

Derico

Banned
Maybe instead of doing breakaways, you could spend the 2 bars of defense meter to "air block" or "air armor". You would still take damage from the combo, just a little bit less.

Either that or breakers, or nothing...but would like to see a new mechanic.
It's a good and desperate way not mess with gravity, but the attacker will land the full combo, and the tech will be just a defense power up.

It's valid, but will not be a "breaker" anymore.
 

Xelz

Go over there!
The core is done, it will be very difficult to revert.
Even the dash is complicated... If you dash faster than u walk, u can do a lot more combos, so the game will be completely broken.

Late reveal, late feedback.
Now its too late to fix the major issues.
Completely agree with this. The dash didn't feel that bad to me, honestly, but trying to fix it now must be a pain since combos were designed around the current dash speed and distance. This would be like MKX trying to change the run mechanic within 6 weeks of release.
 

Derico

Banned
Completely agree with this. The dash didn't feel that bad to me, honestly, but trying to fix it now must be a pain since combos were designed around the current dash speed and distance. This would be like MKX trying to change the run mechanic within 6 weeks of release.
Exactly. The core is done, all was made to work that way.
 

Pygmy_Potato

BF4+FF+BLK
Some different options for simple adjustments to Breakaway:

1) Change the cooldown for defensive meter be slightly harsher
2) Make the recovery a forced long delayed wakeup
3) Adjust the armored properties

*Not 100% certain how the armor currently works, but I think it has unlimited hits for its duration.
If so, a subtle fix could be to reduce the armored duration to only cover the beginning of the drop, or limiting it to only one hit of armor. Either should make it easier to bait and punish by swapping the special launcher in your combo to a jab string.

Some combo of the above should do fine. No need for anything drastic like bringing back breakers.
 
No matter how many nerfs breakaway gets, I will never enjoy watching it, I'm saying this because I haven't played mk11 yet. It stops the flow of battle at the most climatic point which is not surprisingly anticlimactic ;therefore, I hope NRS just listens to Maximilian dood and sonic fox who both suggested just adding a counter combo breaker like KI and guilty gear. A hard counter would naturally balance the mechanic by making people want to use it less because of the high risk and high reward. Also, max was more specific and suggested making the hard counter be a grab or something which causes a crushing blow. This will make the boring to watch breakaway hype no matter what and especially if there is a crushing blow. Breakaways seems really good right now so why are they like the only thing in the game that is not hard punishable like every other mechanic in the game except fatal blow which people want to hard punish too?