solutions for sonics "air tech" problem - no armor?

[kabelfritz]

i think this should have its own thread.

sonic fox legitimately pointed out, that flipping out grants a full combo punish in some situations. such a situation can be a juggle attempt with high-recovery combo extender like scarletts trance or scorpions spear - opponent does an armored flip out and gets a guaranteed punish. this is not a statisfying reward system.

one solution to this might be to remove armor on the flipout. armor has caused massive problems in older nrs games and has therefore been removed almost completely. it would also help to balance air tech/ flip out.

theoretically, you could still flip out and punish spear etc, but the juggler could find ways to chain a string into spear etc which cannot be escaped without armor. now if the unarmored flipout is only possible at certain points in a combo, those with a "juggle gap", the whole flip-out thing would be much more brainy, more of like a mindgame like in i2.

combine that either with a cost of 2 defensive bars for flipout (i think it already is like that), so that you cant do armored wakeup afterwards, or with a restand situation, and flipout should be balanced.

what are your thoughts?

 

[xWildx]

I’d rather just have them remove them altogether or only allow it once per match.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Can you flip while standing? I don’t like the idea that some characters get combos out of stunning specials (Kabal, Sub, Scorp) and you can’t do anything against it.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

So flips let you full combo punish the opponent (which is unfair af) and breaker puts both players in equal positions (unless one of is cornered). I like breaker more, at least it guarantees you don’t get any damage after a first hit. Also make breaker work against projectiles like I2.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I don't like any, neither break away or breakers, and still think this game doesn't honestly needs breakers, just tweak the damage to do less and remove them from the game.

 

[RyuKazuya]

I think the breakaway was fine. Most of the times my opponent would try to breakaway during my high recovery combo extender. Knowing that i baited it and got free oki. I really didn't feel like it was overpowered or something. It definitely brought much more depth into the game.

For instance I waited sometimes for people to use scorpions f34 krushing blow and brokeaway right after so they dont get anything from it. So this would make krushing blow combos useful when the opponent did not break away. In that case it was about baiting a breakaway getting oki, opening the opponent up again, krushblow the crap of the opponent for huge damage. I really liked that you had to think every second of the round. Like in other games you launch and press your combo which we all love. But with the breakaway in mind it adds an extra layer of depth into the game. Therefore I really think it is fine and a nice feature.

 

[Espionage]

If they can get rid of breakaway that would be great.

If they tweak it but find away for opponents to bait it where its optimal then I suppose will have to deal with it.

Keep those stupid Breakers out of the game. I hate that mechanic. I never EVER want that crap to return in another MK game!

Flawless Block is in the game. That should be the way for you to get the pressure off of you. If I hit you though in Neutral and I hit you hard then the penalty must be accessible in full without worrying about a breaker.

I should not have to worry about your resources until my punish is complete.

If I out footsie my opponent I shouldn't be slapped to the ground by a stupid breaker returning to Neutral when I won neutral already. I should win the exchange, be rewarded and then either get the position I earned or return to Neutral where we play footsies again.

#keepbreakersout

 

[Wetdoba]

The solution is already in the game. Its called "baiting" and "not ending everything in restand when your opponent has 2 bars."

When your opponent has resources in this game you are suppose to be hesitant because there are actual defensive options. When your opponent does not have the resources is when you are allowed to go nuts on offense. Bait a wake up and whiff punish with scorpion then you can do your 2 bar combo without fear of breaking out against spear. Bait one breaker with Baraka then you can mix them and harrass them for 30 seconds straight on oki without fear of wake ups or flawless block reversals.

There is a game within a game to be played and its not all about free offense without having to think about your opponents options on defense. Get over it. The entire game shouldnt be changed because some people cant handle baiting things or adapting to the new game mechanics.

Also sonic fox does not make the game or speak for the entire community, his word is not gospel.

 

[JDM]

they're fine.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Knowing that i baited it and got free oki.

It's not free oki if you have to pay the price of giving up guarenteed damage that you already earned. It's a guess when you already opened them up and if you guess wrong they can full combo you. That's a lot of potential reward for somebody who just got hit, imo.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I think Breakaway needs to be adjusted.

Option 1:
Make it set them to neutral and make meter have a 10 second buffer. So along with the 10 seconds it normally takes for one bar to regenerate you have a ten second cooldown on meter Regen making one bar take 20 seconds total to get one bar back and 30 seconds total for two bars.
This would put a deterrent in place so they won't just spam breakaway 3-4 times a round/match.

Option 2:
Make breakaway only possible once per match and keep it the way it is except reduce advantage of breaker so they don't have a year to punish but a small window.

Option 3:
Make breakaway cost 2 of each offensive/defensive meter draining that players resources for the very powerful get out of jail card.
In addition to the cost of offensive and defensive bars make the Regen have a 20 second cooldown before it starts to Regen normally.
This makes each bar take 30 seconds to refill.

 

[thesacrifist]

The solution is already in the game. Its called "baiting" and "not ending everything in restand when your opponent has 2 bars."

When your opponent has resources in this game you are suppose to be hesitant because there are actual defensive options. When your opponent does not have the resources is when you are allowed to go nuts on offense. Bait a wake up and whiff punish with scorpion then you can do your 2 bar combo without fear of breaking out against spear. Bait one breaker with Baraka then you can mix them and harrass them for 30 seconds straight on oki without fear of wake ups or flawless block reversals.

There is a game within a game to be played and its not all about free offense without having to think about your opponents options on defense. Get over it. The entire game shouldnt be changed because some people cant handle baiting things or adapting to the new game mechanics.

Also sonic fox does not make the game or speak for the entire community, his word is not gospel.

I agree with this. At least let it play out before doing drastic changes. SonicFox' playstyle is usually non-stop aggression so it's not wonder he makes a case for thinking pure offense

 

[TheJaquio]

Honestly I don't think breakaways are a big deal. Your opponent doing them means that they won't have defensive bars for what, the next 20-30 seconds? Which means that they are straight up free on wakeup for the next half a minute. There is a big cost to doing a breakaway.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Honestly I don't think breakaways are a big deal. Your opponent doing them means that they won't have defensive bars for what, the next 20-30 seconds? Which means that they are straight up free on wakeup for the next half a minute. There is a big cost to doing a breakaway.

You mean 10 seconds

 

[TheJaquio]

You mean 10 seconds

It's 18 seconds to get a bar back, and 36 to get both. Doing a breakaway causes it to refill much slower than doing a wakeup.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

It's 18 seconds to get a bar back, and 36 to get both. Doing a breakaway causes it to refill much slower than doing a wakeup.

That's good at least but we seen players use it 4 times in a match. I've seen it used 2 times in a round.

 

[kcd117]

This game wouldn’t really need a breaker if the characters did a little bit less dmg, let’s say average 22-25% optimized without KB. You would have to win the neutral and score a big hit 3 to 4 times in a round to win it and that is pretty fair.

 

[Darth-Nero]

What's wrong with the old breaker system again? Can't we just have that back? Some core mechanics really didn't need to change at all.

 

[Beef Supreme]

They're not going to switch to breaker this late in development.

 

[ColdBoreMK23]

Cost all four bars of meter.

 

[OzzFoxx]

Don’t overthink it, just take a little longer to get up after ising

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

oh no, now you have to watch your opponents meter when you're combo-ing them.

It takes all your defensive meter as well. Meaning you can have your way with them for a significant time after.

For example I was playing red reaper last night and started always flipping out of scorpion's bnb and he started reading it and blowing me up for it. You don't always get a punish. Then I started thinking he was gonna cut his combo short to punish flip out and wouldn't flip out and he only got a small combo. I like the mind game of whether to use your flip out or not and whether your opponent will or not.

Y'all are overreacting and gotta realize it's still day -25.

 

[John Grizzly]

What was wrong with Injustice 2's flip out mechanic? I thought that was perfect. If you read that the opponent would flip out of a combo, you could start another combo all over again. Most importantly, you wouldn't get punished for being the one starting the combo.

Combo Breakers should NOT return, in my opinion. With the meter building passively, we'll see WAAAAY too many breakers. It's not fun to watch or play with combos constantly being broken.

 

[M.D.]

Dudes.

First doing the escape leaves you with no wakeup options in a knocked down situation and you won't get them back for several seconds, leaving you in the meaty blender on wakeup guaranteed.

In the stress test in the last day EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE had option selects and were not doing the unsafe specials if they saw you escape. They also baited it and started to wakeup meaty the crap out of me once I did it.

Also it appears to activate only over a certain height, I wasn't able to pull it off after baraka's gutted, while he waited for me to escape and hit f4 at the lowest possible moment in the combo.

Nobody will ever get punished from it in a couple of days, hell, most weren't even in the stress test.

 

[xenogorgeous]

What's wrong with the old breaker system again? Can't we just have that back? Some core mechanics really didn't need to change at all.

agreed, contrary what some are saying, I'm favour to some kind of combo breaker system mechanic in this game, being the new breakaway or the old combo breaker system, doesn't matter wich one .... but, a breaker system well done with good balance and fair results, in order to avoid broken shit stupid stuff in this game (MK11).