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Skarlet: Banned @ Evo? (All DLC officially banned for Evo 2011)

Should Skarlet be banned @ Evo?


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THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Tay, that means that you're requiring every tournament player to purchase her in order to learn her if they wanna learn every nuance.



Also, remember everyone, I'm not entirely against her being in for EVO... I'm playing devil's advocate so we can get a good solid answer.
Tournament players should be prepared as is...but there's also the fact that you don't have to actually purchase her to get the experience vs her. Besides, if you can't spend 5 bucks on a character, why are you paying like 500+ to enter a tournament? >.>
 

Kensei

Noob
I don't think she should be banned. The twins were allowed in SF tournaments right away. Most of the country didn't have access to an arcade to play them before the console release and they're still allowed. People are worried she might be overpowered but the director for SF says himself that Yun and Yang were purposely made to be overpowered. I say let her be available and just let it play itself out.
 
With NRS unable to release her dlc without people accidently getting it for free, buying her and then not being able to use her and not able to get her onto the European PS Store, what makes anyone think that NRS can make a dlc character that isnt initially broken in some way with infinates and broken characteristics? We already have a throw doing 17% damage and that was a day 1 issue. Who knows what will be found in 2 weeks?
 

Dark_Rob

Champion
This is a hard question. And its one that tugs at both sides of my beliefs as far as competitive gaming goes. Both sides here have made valid arguments as to why Skarlett should either be banned or not.

I do not have the anwser. Whenever Im faced with a question like this that I dont know the correct anwser to, I go back to basics. The foundation of my mindset about competitive games comes largly from David Sirlins book "Playing to win" And it is to that book that I now turn for anwsers.

The first chapter that seems to be the most relevant here is "What should be banned" Its a long article so I wont quote the whole thing but only the parts I believe to be most related to the discussion at hand.(You can view the whole article here if you wish: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html )

Now this is a tricky subject, not nearly so clear-cut as the last. The world is full of players who think everything under the sun should be banned. The scrub believes that any tactic or maneuver that beats him should be labeled “cheap” and consequently banned. In actuality, very little ever needs to be banned.
Ok so the first thing he says off the bat is basically very little ever needs to be banned. This is common knowledge to most of us but I thought id reemphasize it here. Banning anything in a game is never something that should be taken lightly or done freely.

Before we discuss what should or should not be allowed in tournament play, I should acknowledge that different forms of distribution of games have led to different attitudes about banning. Some types of games are released, and that’s that. The players are stuck with whatever is in the game. Other types of games see a patch or two to fix the most egregious bugs and perhaps game balance problems. I’ll lump these two into the same category though as they both basically stick the player with whatever is there after the last patch. These are the types of games I grew up with.
Pretty much exactly what we are talking about here. We are talking about "sticking players with whatever is there after the last patch".

The entire notion of radically patching and altering a game after its release may have many desirable properties, but it also has created an attitude among developers that they can release a somewhat buggy and imbalanced game and just patch it later. It is no surprise then that players of this type of game see differently than players of more “static” games on the issue of banning and altering a game. To players of my kind of games, banning is an ultra-extreme measure. To players of some internet games, the changing of game balance can be an everyday occurrence, as can the fixing of bugs.
The difference between the way games were back in the day and the way modern games are handled today, and the shift in mentality that has gone with them.

The “constant patching” approach by developers also often leads to laziness on the part of the players; there’s less reward for trying as hard as you can within the given rules, because if you are successful, your tactic will just be patched into obsolescence anyway. You might be a footnote someplace, but you won’t still be winning.
Bingo. This is what I was looking for. so the question is are we being lazy? Is it easier for us to just ban Skarlett rather then potentially have to deal with her? Keep in mind we already know from the first quote that very little needs to actually be banned. We have already seen NRS patch out or nerf things that we know were not broken or overpowered. Kung Lao's spin, Smokes OTG smoke bomb and cyrax's bomb traps all come to mind. In fact the only truly broken thing Ive seen expoited in a tournament that actually ruins the game was Kabal's block infinite. Thats it.

We know virtually nothing about Skarlett yet compared to what we will know as people begin to break her down. What are our grounds for banning her? Because no one will have that much experience with the matchup? Utter nonsense. EVO is still a month away. Powerup was held less than 2 weeks after MK9's release, and PDP was about 1 month. Skarlett is in the same situation as every other character was in at Powerup. If skarlett is to good then a tournament is the place for that to be put to the test. Not "Well. she might be to good, we just dont know, so lets go ahead and ban her anyway"
That is in direct opposition to what Sirlin is saying.

A note to game developers: fix your bugs after release if you have the opportunity to do so. But beware that players enjoy the feeling of wielding “unfair” tactics, and taking that away from them can be a mistake if the “unfair” tactic isn’t powerful enough to single-handedly win tournaments.
^^^ NRS please read this.

Anyway after thinking about this I believe Skarlett should NOT be banned at EVO. Not unless some game breaking problem with her is PROVEN(not found and then just accepted as game breaking.) to be broken or to good.
 

9.95

Champion
Rob, very good point of view. Goes along with exactly what I said... Tentatively leave her in and not banned for EVO, but if something arises, they can still ban her the day of the tournament. If they ban her first then find that she's perfectly fine by the time EVO then you've taken a tool away from players who might have done fairly well with her in tournament.
 

MrWizard

Evo Master
Rob, very good point of view. Goes along with exactly what I said... Tentatively leave her in and not banned for EVO, but if something arises, they can still ban her the day of the tournament. If they ban her first then find that she's perfectly fine by the time EVO then you've taken a tool away from players who might have done fairly well with her in tournament.
You cant ban her the day of the tournament. Evo is a world event and people will practice with that character up until Evo. You cant resonably ask them to have a backup character just in case a ban goes down.

This decision will be made by July.
 

LordxMugen

FIGHTAN GAHMS!!!
You cant ban her the day of the tournament. Evo is a world event and people will practice with that character up until Evo. You cant resonably ask them to have a backup character just in case a ban goes down.

This decision will be made by July.
so sayeth the God of EVO. i guess that pretty much ends the discussion right there huh?
 

CYD

Noob
Good stuff Dark_Rob. Sirlin's always a good read, even the 5th time through haha. I think it is pertinent that broken stuff like her 17% dmg throw should be fixed prior to a major, otherwise she should be banned. With the block stun grab that is oh so famous in MK, that is a game changer. Any other excuses I agree need to be fleshed out by tournament results. Kung Lao was nerfed after he was proven to dominate at PDP.
 

LordxMugen

FIGHTAN GAHMS!!!
It doesn't. The discussion is whether one month is enough time to learn a new character and how to fight against her.
well from how divided everyone sounds, i imagine theyll just accept whatever decree you deem on behalf of fair play. cause stuff like this has too many shades of grey.....i hate grey...
 

Dark_Rob

Champion
It doesn't. The discussion is whether one month is enough time to learn a new character and how to fight against her.
Well, 2 weeks was enough time at Powerup. And it was about a month between release and PDP and we saw some great matches there. Skarlett is in the game. She is available on both consoles. She should be fair game. If people have enough money to spend to go to EVO they surely must have enough to buy Skarlett. Its time we started shifting some responsibility back onto the players instead of on the game.

As for the rest of the discussion as to whether Skarlett could maybe,possibly have a broken tactic:
When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it.
*compliments of David Sirlin*
 

9.95

Champion
You cant ban her the day of the tournament. Evo is a world event and people will practice with that character up until Evo. You cant resonably ask them to have a backup character just in case a ban goes down.

This decision will be made by July.
I should have been clearer... I was speaking hypothetically. What I mean is you can ban anything last minute, but you can't let people go back in time so they can have the month to learn the character. Likewise, you can't refund that month if you ban the character the day of the tournament when they spent an entire month learning her. There are pros and cons to it... and the answer isn't really clear cut. Making the decision in early July, as you said, is definitely the best way to go.


It doesn't. The discussion is whether one month is enough time to learn a new character and how to fight against her.
I think more problems will arise with learning to play against a new character as opposed to learning to play as a new character. People can spend all day for the next 2-3 weeks learning her, but how many times either online or offline will you come across that character? It's definitely more of an issue for those who want to learn the matchup than it is for those who want to learn the character. I'd say there's enough time to learn the character... learning the matchup, though... that's cutting it close but the diligent ones and the better players will manage.
 

Vulcan Hades

Champion
+ Could make exiting matches and bring a little more diversity
- Learning how to use a character is MUCH easier than learning how to deal with a matchup. You need practice for this, tons of it and with as many different Skarlet players as possible.

I still think players should adapt to the newly added characters. Even if it's gonna be hard to do in only one month. Man it's a tough question...
 

Krayzie

Co-founder
Administrator
Founder
It doesn't. The discussion is whether one month is enough time to learn a new character and how to fight against her.
Me and REO already started learning her, and this is still just day 2 of Skarlet.

The problem I see here is how big the changes will be after they fix her. I would hate to see her banned from Evo, specially because not every game makes it to the Evo lineup. I think a month is enough time for people to learn how to play against her, and for people to learn her.

She shouldn't be banned, imo. But I do understand why some are saying she should be banned.

Regardless, I vote for her to stay.
 

kona

Noob
ECT's reasoning for banning Skarlet are justified considering people would have less than a week to learn the matchup. I think 1 month is plenty of time to learn the Skarlet matchup for EVO. I'd say only ban her if she's completely broken. If she's not broken, leave her be.
 
I don't think she should be banned. The biggest reason people state that she should be banned is because they only have one month to learn how to play against her. Well, you could use the same argument that those who choose to play as her only have one month to learn how to play as her too.

There's no evidence of her being broken, she's available on both consoles, and everyone can buy her if they choose to do so. Anyone who claims they lost to Skarlet because she's only been out for 1 month is making up a lame excuse... that's plenty of time to learn how to play against a character and that's not something a true tournament champion would say.
 

Vulcan Hades

Champion
-If you can't beat them, join 'em

I have this strange feeling a lot of players will be using Skarlet at EVO just to play it safe. Some will think it can advantage them in a way, so they're gonna say "fuck it, might as well start using her too.". Then we'll have nothing but Skarlet mirrors all day. It's gonna happen. I just know it.
 

STORMS

Co-founder
Administrator
My only true concern is someone exposing Skarlet of an infinite or something broken and it casting a very negative "first-time-look" at Mortal Kombat.

I am crossing my fingers that MK will remain Evo-worthy for years to come, so again... that is my only worry/concern.
 

Dark_Rob

Champion
-If you can't beat them, join 'em

I have this strange feeling a lot of players will be using Skarlet at EVO just to play it safe. Some will think it can advantage them in a way, so they're gonna say "fuck it, might as well start using her too.". Then we'll have nothing but Skarlet mirrors all day. It's gonna happen. I just know it.
Not nessecarily. People that really main a character arent going to be turned off to they're character by a new character. Ive been playing Subzero since the day the demo first came out on PSN. Theres no way I could ever feel as confident with Skarlett after only a few weeks as I do with Subzero.
 

wEEman33

Noob
I don't think she should be banned. The biggest reason people state that she should be banned is because they only have one month to learn how to play against her. Well, you could use the same argument that those who choose to play as her only have one month to learn how to play as her too.
Bingo.

I played against a couple Skarlets today for the first time and I beat them all easily, and I'm not even that good of a player (I have just barely above .500 career winning percentage). Probably this is because I know my character inside and out but these guys are still exploring Skarlet's potential.

I don't see anything wrong with her or any logical reason to ban her.
 
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