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Should we have more defensive options?

BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
It should, but that's clearly not what they're going for this time around. I don't want to dub it MKX-2, but... no, we'll see.
 

BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
Have you watched Champion of the Realms? People love MKX.
Well, i don't (if i didn't make it clear before). It's been said many many times at this point and i have nothing new to add, but long story short - people praise X these days for the exact same things they used to criticize it (auto-pilot rushdown into endless + frames, no neurtal). In my case, it stopped being fun to play and even win presicely because of that, so, i expect the worst with 12.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
To be honest, I've come across this argument on this forum multiple times: "pro players are inconsistent and the same people who criticized MKX when it was the current ongoing MK are the same ones now shitting on MK11 and praising MKX" and I've yet to see a single example of this.

I see the same people who liked MKX during its time continue to praise it to this day while the same people who criticized it for "dumb 50/50 rushdown" praised mk11 (and keep praising it to this day). Never once have I seen the same person shit on MKX and then fondly remember it during the MK11 lifecycle. It seems to me people are very into the notion of grouping the two differing opinions into a single folkloric amalgamation that never existed in the first place just because these opinions were from pro-players, while ignoring the fact that they were different pro-players who kept their opinions consistent.
 

ImpostorOak

Goro is a Pokémon
I've been playing MKX a little lately, and while very flashy looking, it was pretty mindless. Every character has 50/50s, and run pretty much made footsies non-existent.

The game is fun to an extent, and when you no-life the game like a wanna-be pro like I did, the funblockables can be muscle-memoried, but I don't think it's great design. I think it's very unfun to newer or less committed players, and I don't think it's necessarily skillful to be able to open someone up through 1f OH/Low mixup.

Mk9 and MK11 felt close to one another to me, even if everyone says Mk11 was boring. I enjoy spacing and using movement, spacing, and timing which was exactly what mk11 offered, so did MK9.

As far as defensive options in MK1, Breaker and Armored Wakeups are a lot, IMO. As far as I see, the only change I would give is maybe slightly buffing flawless block in some way, as negating chip seems sort of minor, but maybe there will be some deadly block damage setups. Push block sounds like it would make flawless blocks one use a bit redundant as well.
 

Eji1700

Kombatant
I’m constantly wondering how many people here have literally never played a tag fighter. There’s going to be a lot of degenerate nonsense. It can absolutelystill work and have a variety of different strategies, but you have to shift your expectations about how neutral and mix will be handled.
Like if you’re blocking smoke with your kameo on cd and his isn’t, yeah you have fucked up and are going to be super likely to be hit.
If you’re full screen Vs some zoner in a similar situation, yep. Still fucked up.
One of your biggest defensive options is your assist
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Nah Block Breaker. It was in MKX and maybe MK9? Its where you used a breaker while blocking.
that wasn't a thing in mk9, in mkx was useless though, that game was super oppressive

If Block breaker was in MK9, Kabal and Skarlet wouldn't be top tier
 
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Demon_0

RIP Akira Toriyama
  • Flawless Block (no chip, wider window)
  • Last breath
  • Upblock (once succeeded, full punish)
  • Armored Wakeup reversals
  • Delayed Wakeup
  • Breakers
No, we don't need more defensive options.
 
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BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
  • Flawless Block (no chip, wider window)
You're still taking the mix, since it doesn't alter the frame data anymore (at least as things are now).

  • Last breath
Since breaker costs all three sticks of butter now, you'll probably never see this. Well, never say never, but it's highly unlikely.

  • Upblock (once succeeded, full punish)
Not instantaneous, so you have to predict with this, not react. Baiteable with lows and throws anyway. The rest is fine.
Don't treat this as a personal attack or something like that, i'm just demonstating that the defense in this game is made purposefully worse and that's slowly becoming a trend. Just look at other currently supported fighting games.
 

Demon_0

RIP Akira Toriyama
You're still taking the mix, since it doesn't alter the frame data anymore (at least as things are now).



Since breaker costs all three sticks of butter now, you'll probably never see this. Well, never say never, but it's highly unlikely.


Not instantaneous, so you have to predict with this, not react. Baiteable with lows and throws anyway. The rest is fine.
Don't treat this as a personal attack or something like that, i'm just demonstating that the defense in this game is made purposefully worse and that's slowly becoming a trend. Just look at other currently supported fighting games.
I thought they changed the cost of breakers to two bars in a recent build but don't quote me on that.

In any case, I understand your reasoning but keep in mind that meter building is quite fast, probably fast enough to use one breaker per round. Having both breakers and armored wake ups next to the more technical stuff like flawless/up block seems adequate to me but I guess time will tell.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
You're still taking the mix, since it doesn't alter the frame data anymore (at least as things are now).



Since breaker costs all three sticks of butter now, you'll probably never see this. Well, never say never, but it's highly unlikely.


Not instantaneous, so you have to predict with this, not react. Baiteable with lows and throws anyway. The rest is fine.
Don't treat this as a personal attack or something like that, i'm just demonstating that the defense in this game is made purposefully worse and that's slowly becoming a trend. Just look at other currently supported fighting games.
How was the defense made purposely worse? Just because these aren’t perfect defensive options with no counterplay doesn’t mean they’re not good defensive options. With this logic you can break down every offensive option and list all the counterplay and imply that the offensive options are weak because of it.
 

BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
How was the defense made purposely worse? Just because these aren’t perfect defensive options with no counterplay doesn’t mean they’re not good defensive options.
When did i say that ? Don't deal in absolutes, friend. All i said is that offense is better at being offensive, than defense at being defensive.
 
Idk, personally I think ,as with any tag game ,the number 1 defensive option is your partner. The rules you think applies to a regular non tag game don't work here. The fact that you can fight behind or in front of an assist in these types of games makes it a defensive barrier far greater than any push block, armored attack could be. The fact that those are here on top of the assist gonna make it a pain to get continued offense. Kameo's taking hits for You aswell as stoping you from getting hit is hella op. The moment you play a frost with a defensive li mei you gonna wanna break your controller. You won't get continued offense against that combo. Trust me.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
When did i say that ? Don't deal in absolutes, friend. All i said is that offense is better at being offensive, than defense at being defensive.
You responded to each defensive option and stated that there’s counterplay to it and then said “i'm just demonstrating that the defense in this game is made purposefully worse”.

You didn’t demonstrate that at all, and you also didn’t just say that “offense is better at being offensive, than defense at being defensive”. Much less demonstrate that either. ¯\(ツ)
 

BumbleBee

Power of Toasty
You responded to each defensive option and stated that there’s counterplay to it and then said “i'm just demonstrating that the defense in this game is made purposefully worse”.

You didn’t demonstrate that at all, and you also didn’t just say that “offense is better at being offensive, than defense at being defensive”. Much less demonstrate that either. ¯\(ツ)
First off, i responded to 3 of those options, not all of them. Second, not entirely sure, how else i can describe my disposition, so, i'll reiterate : made worse ≠ made obsolete. But if you want me to spell it out - here goes :

1) Flawless block lets you negate chip damage from strings with gaps, but you cannot counter-act and punish them, if you do so. This is normal for other fighting games, but MK11 presented you with such opportunity and created said precedent. You can't do this anymore. That is worse.

2) In a game with, arguably, the most intense meter managment among all NRS-era games, Last Breath won't see much use. Obviously, they might apply tweaks, but right now such mechanic becomes less applicable, when you have to spend everything to break out of combo. That is worse.

3) Upblock has a hefty startup, which not only makes it seeable, but also reactable. If i remember right, it also has recovery, meaning you won't be able to return to neutral immediately. I can't call this worse, because, i can't compare it to anything, so, i'll call it questionable.

I hope i made myself clear enough. You seem like a reasonable individual, Juggs, but all i heard from you so far is "no, you" style of response.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
To be honest, I've come across this argument on this forum multiple times: "pro players are inconsistent and the same people who criticized MKX when it was the current ongoing MK are the same ones now shitting on MK11 and praising MKX" and I've yet to see a single example of this.

I see the same people who liked MKX during its time continue to praise it to this day while the same people who criticized it for "dumb 50/50 rushdown" praised mk11 (and keep praising it to this day). Never once have I seen the same person shit on MKX and then fondly remember it during the MK11 lifecycle. It seems to me people are very into the notion of grouping the two differing opinions into a single folkloric amalgamation that never existed in the first place just because these opinions were from pro-players, while ignoring the fact that they were different pro-players who kept their opinions consistent.
Lol not sure if serious. Not gonna go through bumping years-old twitter posts, but there were TONS of players bashing MKX then praising it after MK11. In fact, there was a huge "return of the footsies" narrative when MK11 was coming out because of many people saying MKX had none and was "easy/no skill". Then during MK11's no support phase some of those same players started going back at one point to the "more fun MKX". Streaming MKX out of nowhere. Etc.

There's more I can say, but there definitely was a lot of the same people hating on MKX praising it years later.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
Lol not sure if serious. Not gonna go through bumping years-old twitter posts, but there were TONS of players bashing MKX then praising it after MK11. In fact, there was a huge "return of the footsies" narrative when MK11 was coming out because of many people saying MKX had none and was "easy/no skill". Then during MK11's no support phase some of those same players started going back at one point to the "more fun MKX". Streaming MKX out of nowhere. Etc.

There's more I can say, but there definitely was a lot of the same people hating on MKX praising it years later.
If you say so. Still, what I'm saying is I am yet to see this, so this is very likely not such a common thing as people make it out to be.