General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I mean Shinnok has a d1 poke that's 6 frames and his d4 low profiles a ton of shit. I could be getting lucky with the d4. I dunno, this game has so much goofy stuff I tend to just forget about it and play and if it works, it works. Typically though the animation on that overhead is pretty telling. The game also doesn't really let you fuzzy guard so you have to be expecting it at times so...

I guess what I'm trying to say, is maybe I'm not reacting to it because I was getting hit by Scorp's F4 a lot earlier, but please don't take your frustrations out on me for me saying Shinnok's B3 isn't that great. It's got small range and most moves in this game are way faster than 18 frames. As an oki tool? It's alright but delay wake up long enough and it'll whiff and Shinnok is kinda fucked there.

I'm fine with saying other reasons the move isn't great but don't spread misinformation about it being reactable. Just to be sure check my other post and see what your reaction times are.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I'm fine with saying other reasons the move isn't great but don't spread misinformation about it being reactable. Just to be sure check my other post and see what your reaction times are.

I mean you really don't have to react to it. I would be very surprised if a Random Shinnok player would just be ballsy and throw that move out knowing how long it takes. 18 frames with no guaranteed way to set it up is EXTREMELY risky. It's not like Scorpion who can vortex you with his 18f Overhead, Shinnok actually can only do that in Imposter, a variation I seldom play. I will give you that. But I would always watch the animation. B3 has the same animation his ender in 1123 does. Only two moves that ever look like that.

And if it's that Guilty Gear test, I suck at reacting to anything in GG so there you go. But I will try it.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I mean you really don't have to react to it. I would be very surprised if a Random Shinnok player would just be ballsy and throw that move out knowing how long it takes. 18 frames with no guaranteed way to set it up is EXTREMELY risky. It's not like Scorpion who can vortex you with his 18f Overhead, Shinnok actually can only do that in Imposter, a variation I seldom play. I will give you that. But I would always watch the animation. B3 has the same animation his ender in 1123 does. Only two moves that ever look like that.

And if it's that Guilty Gear test, I suck at reacting to anything in GG so there you go. But I will try it.

If you have a godlike enough reaction time to poke these things on reaction it wouldn't matter what game haha. Anyway, yeah so obviously he can set it up well in impostor, but in any variation, you can condition them to block after ex HS with the massive advantage to set it up. 18 frames isn't actually that bad, even in Street fighter where there are tons of 3 frame normals, an 18 frame overhead isn't horrible. You just have to condition them to block first, and a 7 frame low is pretty good at conditioning them to block.

Also, I'm sorry to be a dick about the reacting thing but I'd just really prefer not to have misinformation clogging up our forums. As we learn this game the next year or two we want as little confusion as possible haha.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

So it was the Guilty Gear test (I really hate this, games handle frame data differently and Millia is known for her fast overheads already) and the best time I got was 22.9 seconds on the last try.

I actually had to refresh it once because I did a fault trying to react to a bad moon but this is just Millia low crouching and standing and then will toss a move. And then afterwards never did anything.

Personally I can react to it. The start up frames in MK are pretty much all faster than 18 frames on most normals, you could simply poke it. In Guilty Gear you get put into blockstrings and hair car and bad moon setups. None of that is in that test.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

If you have a godlike enough reaction time to poke these things on reaction it wouldn't matter what game haha. Anyway, yeah so obviously he can set it up well in impostor, but in any variation, you can condition them to block after ex HS with the massive advantage to set it up. 18 frames isn't actually that bad, even in Street fighter where there are tons of 3 frame normals, an 18 frame overhead isn't horrible. You just have to condition them to block first, and a 7 frame low is pretty good at conditioning them to block.

I see what you're saying, but f4 you gotta be at least close to your opponent for it to connect, and I dunno about you, but this game promotes the aspect of disrespecting and counterpoking and spacing your opponent out to whiff as much as possible. It's brutal. I always play a safe, spacing oriented game that does not revolve around using b3/f4 because Shinnok does not want to be up close unless he has you in a set up. I do get what you mean by the reaction times, but I promise you no Shinnok is ever really gonna wanna do it Raw, they wanna set it up.

If anything I guess I'm trying to help the best I can. I never really saw his b3 to be all that great, and maybe 18 frames isn't all that slow, but I can tell you, people have poked me out of it. whether it was by luck, reaction etc... People just deal with it. worse comes to worse, I get like 22% off of a confirm.

EDIT: I mean b3 I would never do raw. F4 I would certainly use up close.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

So it was the Guilty Gear test (I really hate this, games handle frame data differently and Millia is known for her fast overheads already) and the best time I got was 22.9 seconds on the last try.

I actually had to refresh it once because I did a fault trying to react to a bad moon but this is just Millia low crouching and standing and then will toss a move. And then afterwards never did anything.

Personally I can react to it. The start up frames in MK are pretty much all faster than 18 frames on most normals, you could simply poke it. In Guilty Gear you get put into blockstrings and hair car and bad moon setups. None of that is in that test.

Around 22-25 frames is what I get usually as well and I don't play GG at all either but if your fastest time in a controlled setting like that is significantly slower than what you're claiming you can react to in an actual in game situation (a frame is a frame, although obviously animation will vary your results somewhat) I don't understand how you think you can do it.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I see what you're saying, but f4 you gotta be at least close to your opponent for it to connect, and I dunno about you, but this game promotes the aspect of disrespecting and counterpoking and spacing your opponent out to whiff as much as possible. It's brutal. I always play a safe, spacing oriented game that does not revolve around using b3/f4 because Shinnok does not want to be up close unless he has you in a set up. I do get what you mean by the reaction times, but I promise you no Shinnok is ever really gonna wanna do it Raw, they wanna set it up.

If anything I guess I'm trying to help the best I can. I never really saw his b3 to be all that great, and maybe 18 frames isn't all that slow, but I can tell you, people have poked me out of it. whether it was by luck, reaction etc... People just deal with it. worse comes to worse, I get like 22% off of a confirm.

EDIT: I mean b3 I would never do raw. F4 I would certainly use up close.

We're pretty much in full agreement here haha I just don't want people thinking you can poke it on reaction when you can't. I agree with you on it's use pretty much entirely.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I will say @HGTV Soapboxfan has made me think of doing a d1 in the corner into a b3 now on hit.

 

[Skylight1]

All this talk about Impostor makes me wanna jump up and down until Bone Shaper comes up from under the bed... Can I just say that Bone Shaper seems to be a very good variation? Of course it has its holes but what variation in this game doesn't? The change from the F2,2, 4 from Necromancer and Impostor gets changed to F2,2,1+3. He gains a nice overhead with B3 and he can combo (difficulty isn't that bad to connect it either) into his F221+3 for a nice piece of damage (23-24%). Has a slow projectile true, but it's situational only so it's more than made up for when used correctly. No one talks about his unblockable oki game with the DB1 is pretty good after a HKD. One of his best normals to me is his B2. And someone here mentioned his F4 only being good upfront, I use that move a lot to mix up what my opponent is going to receive. It works sometimes, it doesn't but that's a range issue.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

All this talk about Impostor makes me wanna jump up and down until Bone Shaper comes up from under the bed... Can I just say that Bone Shaper seems to be a very good variation? Of course it has its holes but what variation in this game doesn't? The change from the F2,2, 4 from Necromancer and Impostor gets changed to F2,2,1+3. He gains a nice overhead with B3 and he can combo (difficulty isn't that bad to connect it either) into his F221+3 for a nice piece of damage (23-24%). Has a slow projectile true, but it's situational only so it's more than made up for when used correctly. No one talks about his unblockable oki game with the DB1 is pretty good after a HKD. One of his best normals to me is his B2. And someone here mentioned his F4 only being good upfront, I use that move a lot to mix up what my opponent is going to receive. It works sometimes, it doesn't but that's a range issue.

I said it in another thread but I expect eventually that Bone Shaper might be his go to variation for matchups that clearly do not favor Impostor. I also feel like the buffs he got certainly helped this variation.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Shinnok's instant air teleport accomplished with button remapping

Is there any way to make this teleport speed possible without buying a hitbox or messing with settings?


@GGA Max

 

[Youphemism]

Shinnok's instant air teleport accomplished with button remapping

Is there any way to make this teleport speed possible without buying a hitbox or messing with settings?
Unfortunately, it seems that you have to change the settings in the playstation menu for both players.

@GGA Max

Well firstly tags don't work in edits so I'll tag him for you @GGA Max

Secondly I dunno, I struggle with getting it instantly on XB1 pad myself...

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Well firstly tags don't work in edits so I'll tag him for you @GGA Max

Secondly I dunno, I struggle with getting it instantly on XB1 pad myself...

I don't think it can be done on a pad normally, but if ppl are making threads about "boo hoo shinnok can steal my ex move"
then imagine the rage when they get hit by an instant OH tracking teleport.

I only tried this out for a bit for like a minute or two, but I dont see how this can be defended against.

 

[GGA Max]

Shinnok's instant air teleport accomplished with button remapping

Is there any way to make this teleport speed possible without buying a hitbox or messing with settings?
Unfortunately, it seems that you have to change the settings in the playstation menu for both players.

@GGA Max

I'm not good at it man. I wish I was though, it's probably a real strong tool. So far I can't do it on pad. Closest I get is to do a quick udu. Alex Valle does it, but i think he uses stick.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

I'm not good at it man. I wish I was though, it's probably a real strong tool. So far I can't do it on pad. Closest I get is to do a quick udu. Alex Valle does it, but i think he uses stick.

growing pains...

go to tree in PlayStation menu to do button remapping

Settings-Accessibility-Button Assignments

and switch down dpad button with L2

IA tele is very easy to input when quickly mashing up dpad and L2

settings only effect the user doing the button remap so this should be legal.
It'll be annoying to get used to having the buttons switched, but this seems
like it will make Imposter Shinnok very potent.

 

[MsMiharo]

I don't think it can be done on a pad normally, but if ppl are making threads about "boo hoo shinnok can steal my ex move"
then imagine the rage when they get hit by an instant OH tracking teleport.

I only tried this out for a bit for like a minute or two, but I dont see how this can be defended against.

Block

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Block

If you start respecting the OH then he can mix you up with empty tele into F4 after he lands

 

[MsMiharo]

If you start respecting the OH then he can mix you up with empty tele into F4 after he lands

You can fuzzy that. Also you can d2 or njp him out of it on reaction. Not super easy but doable.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

You can fuzzy that. Also you can d2 or njp him out of it on reaction. Not super easy but doable.

that's almost impossible to do in an actual match.

 

[xSMoKEx]

You do realize you're saying you can react in like less than twelve frames? Do you have an offline person to play against that you could have mix up between b3 and other moves? Make a video of you poking out of b3 but still blocking anything else. I'm also going to edit in a link to something I want you to try.

Edit: here it is http://puu.sh/48rFU.swf
Let's see your 12 frame results. @RM_NINfan101

This test is IMO not a good way to test @RM_NINfan101 's ability (or lack of) to fuzzy guard.

6f to 18f, both with very clearly different animations is much different than the ones being used in this test. For one, the test uses 4 different attacks, varying the difference in reactions greatly (2 lows, and 2 overheads). One of the lows has a very similar animation to each of the overheads because she first stands then goes back low, this is unlike Shinnoks animation. The frame count on these moves is also a lot closer than Shinnok's :\

A more accurate comparison would be the standard quick low poke she is using, and that slow, very seeable "moon" overhead (looks like a moon to me, idk). That is much more comparable to the situation we are describing where one move is very clearly slower than the other, and has a totally different animation.

Nobody is saying that you can actually have that fast of a reaction time consistently, but based on timing differences and major animation differences it is most definitely conceivable that one could fuzzy it (If i had to estimate i'd say a solid 70-80% chance on a straight up F4 / B3). I used the OH at Toryuken once a set, very very rarely, and people like @Jer who have never seen the move EVER still fuzzied it first try lol. The move will hit inevitably some times in a match don't get me wrong, but saying that this F4 / B3 is a true 50/50 is ridiculous. You could do some things such as stance switch -> f4 to make it appear as a B3 attempt in the heat of the moment, or simply walking for a brief moment then going into F4 to try to cover the animation differences and then it becomes a whole different ball game; but this merely changes the dynamics of high/low block into poke the delay or overhead / dont poke and block the fast low.

 

[Jer]

I never played against a Shinnok with a brain before @xSMoKEx at Toryuken and always blocked low, and fuzzied the overhead. I think I got hit by it maybe once.

 

[xSMoKEx]

I never played against a Shinnok with a brain before @xSMoKEx at Toryuken and always blocked low, and fuzzied the overhead. I think I got hit by it maybe once.

It wasnt just you either, i pulled that shit out in like game 7 of a set randomly and people were blocking it on reaction :\ Made me salty lol.

 

[Jer]

It wasnt just you either, i pulled that shit out in like game 7 of a set randomly and people were blocking it on reaction :\ Made me salty lol.

Yeah the overhead is ass lol. Like it's good for him to have, but it's not the greatest. I have no idea what anyones saying about it earlier in the thread, but whatever, my 11f overhead says hello

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

This test is IMO not a good way to test @RM_NINfan101 's ability (or lack of) to fuzzy guard.

6f to 18f, both with very clearly different animations is much different than the ones being used in this test. For one, the test uses 4 different attacks, varying the difference in reactions greatly (2 lows, and 2 overheads). One of the lows has a very similar animation to each of the overheads because she first stands then goes back low, this is unlike Shinnoks animation. The frame count on these moves is also a lot closer than Shinnok's :\

A more accurate comparison would be the standard quick low poke she is using, and that slow, very seeable "moon" overhead (looks like a moon to me, idk). That is much more comparable to the situation we are describing where one move is very clearly slower than the other, and has a totally different animation.

Nobody is saying that you can actually have that fast of a reaction time consistently, but based on timing differences and major animation differences it is most definitely conceivable that one could fuzzy it (If i had to estimate i'd say a solid 70-80% chance on a straight up F4 / B3). I used the OH at Toryuken once a set, very very rarely, and people like @Jer who have never seen the move EVER still fuzzied it first try lol. The move will hit inevitably some times in a match don't get me wrong, but saying that this F4 / B3 is a true 50/50 is ridiculous. You could do some things such as stance switch -> f4 to make it appear as a B3 attempt in the heat of the moment, or simply walking for a brief moment then going into F4 to try to cover the animation differences and then it becomes a whole different ball game; but this merely changes the dynamics of high/low block into poke the delay or overhead / dont poke and block the fast low.

I said in an earlier post that fuzzying it is a possibility. I was simply trying to disprove his statement that he could react and poke out of the b3, which is just obviously not true. I pretty much fully agree with everything you are saying here, I think you just misunderstood what we were originally talking about.

 

[xSMoKEx]

I said in an earlier post that fuzzying it is a possibility. I was simply trying to disprove his statement that he could react and poke out of the b3, which is just obviously not true. I pretty much fully agree with everything you are saying here, I think you just misunderstood what we were originally talking about.

Missed the earlier post unfortunately I completely agree in that case, it's not truly reactable in that sense.