Seth Killian on Balance Requests

[SonicBoomBrad]

SF2 Akuma was insanely broken. Third Strike Gill was insanely broken. Superman is insanely broken. SFIV Sagat was broken, but not to the point of those three, at least not that I can remember. Sometimes broken characters happen, and eventually they either get fixed by the developer, or banned in tournament.

That being said I 100% agree with everything Seth says in this article. Even if Superman was to remain the same, I'd just have to learn Aquaman as a counter, which is exactly what I was doing before we heard about the upcoming patch. There are some matches that are unwinnable for certain characters, and that's just how things are sometimes.

 

[haketh]

Did you really bring up 3rd Strike GIll and ST Akuma with SFIV Vanillia Sagat? A character who was actualyl starting to slip from Top tier status before the update came out? Come on man. A better comparison would have been O. Sagat or St Claw, 3rd Strike Chun, A3 V-ISM Sak or Akuma.

 

[ApocaLips]

I stopped reading when he shitted on Mortal Kombat. I'm tired of biased Journalism in all forms of media.

(1) It's not journalism. It's an essay.

(2) His points are valid. The early MK games had far too many moves that were either useless/suicidal or were nearly carbon copies of other moves/characters.

So basically if you dont play a top tier, your a scrub, and no1 should even dare to try and pick a low tier character cause those ppl suck, bit it doesnt matter cause they wont win even when they pick a top tier character.

You fundamentally misunderstood the article, and you're exactly the type of player that needs to read it (for what it actually says).

Seth repeatedly says pick whatever character you want if you're playing for fun. But, if you pick a character you know doesn't give you the best chance to win, then you've waived any right to blame your loss on character selection. You're not playing to win.

And that mentality is counter intuitive to the advancement of the genre. Telling the development team, "fuck it, you make it - we buy it" gives them the idea that releasing unfinished and unbalanced products is acceptable.

If they put the same work into Shazam or Lobo that they did with Aquaman, we would be talking about a very different game.

Another fundamental misunderstanding of the article. This article is not about choosing which game to play - balance is a consideration for that. But every game is going to be imbalanced to some extent. When you do choose a game, you need to deal with it appropriately rather than blaming your losses (or others' wins) on it. If that means switching to a character you otherwise wouldn't have played, then welcome to the mindset of a properly competitive player.

 

[Rip Torn]

Unfortunately, this does not apply to NRS games since NRS basically tells us that patches are coming and that they are looking to the community for feedback. Also, NRS dev's are more involved with the community and Capcom is only starting to become more involved recently.

NRS is inviting these nerf/buff threads while Capcom has always had the "we know our game better than you" approach. Also, I'm not going to forget the 6 months straight of bitching about Yun when AE was released.

 

[ELC]

I love the "stopped reading cuz.... "

why not just read the entire thing and enlight yourself with another look at the situation at hand.

Just freaking ADHD "its not my way so you're wrong" mentality

low level human being play.

Because only the first part actually applies to balance? If youre still blaming losses on a bad character, you really need to level up refardless on your views on balance

 

[GrandMasterson]

What's his point? That a balanced fighting game and a varied cast of character playstyles are mutually exclusive, and only scrubs choose the former? Okay. Even if this may have been true in 2003 when it was written, it's not a valid argument in this age of social media, broadband internet, and balance patches. There's absolutely no excuse to not have both now.

This essay, article, blog, whatever it is, isn't relevant.

 

[Zoidberg747]

And that mentality is counter intuitive to the advancement of the genre. Telling the development team, "fuck it, you make it - we buy it" gives them the idea that releasing unfinished and unbalanced products is acceptable.

If they put the same work into Shazam or Lobo that they did with Aquaman, we would be talking about a very different game.

Fun fact: no fighting game is truly balanced

Also, you as the consumer have literally no power considering there are millions of people that will buy the game just for superman and batman. The only reason they patch the game is to make it more enjoyable, it really doesnt make them any money, especially if they are not releasing a character with it.

 

[M-Aran-X]

this is the classic lazy excuse to make a half ass fighting game. A fighting game needs to be balance, skill about finding the better character my ass! Anyone who plays characters just because they are top tier is a crappy player for me.

 

[Hellbringer]

(1) It's not journalism. It's an essay.

(2) His points are valid. The early MK games had far too many moves that were either useless/suicidal or were nearly carbon copies of other moves/characters.



You fundamentally misunderstood the article, and you're exactly the type of player that needs to read it (for what it actually says).

Seth repeatedly says pick whatever character you want if you're playing for fun. But, if you pick a character you know doesn't give you the best chance to win, then you've waived any right to blame your loss on character selection. You're not playing to win.



Another fundamental misunderstanding of the article. This article is not about choosing which game to play - balance is a consideration for that. But every game is going to be imbalanced to some extent. When you do choose a game, you need to deal with it appropriately rather than blaming your losses (or others' wins) on it. If that means switching to a character you otherwise wouldn't have played, then welcome to the mindset of a properly competitive player.

I did read i and understand it. This is not 2003 anymore FYI.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Seth repeatedly says pick whatever character you want if you're playing for fun. But, if you pick a character you know doesn't give you the best chance to win, then you've waived any right to blame your loss on character selection. You're not playing to win.

tl;dr If you don't play Superman and ONLY select Luthor's Lab/Metro Rooftop, shut the fuck up about balance. You aren't playing to win in the first place.

 

[ApocaLips]

I did read i and understand it. This is not 2003 anymore FYI.

Clearly not, because your summary doesn't reflect the arguments made in this article.

tl;dr If you don't play Superman and ONLY select Luthor's Lab/Metro Rooftop, shut the fuck up about balance. You aren't playing to win in the first place.

If that's how you honestly feel, then you shouldn't have picked this game.
If you're in a tournament and you lose to Superman on rooftop, and you believe that to be the best strategy, then it's on you for not choosing it. You're not getting any sympathy for not choosing what you honestly think gives you the best chance to win.
Conversely, if you are playing to win and don't choose superman/rooftop, then you don't honestly think that those options are overpowered.
We see a whole lot of complaints on this board about shit people lose to, but it's not clearly a problem until people actually shift to that strategy. That's the only way to sift out the scrub complaints and determine what actually is too powerful.

 

[THTB]

Everyone saying it's not 2003 still doesn't quite understand.

Fighting games become harder and harder to get solid balance when you add so much variety to it. You won't get it in the first 2 iterations. Why? Because the game evolves too much once the masses get to it. Yeah, you can identify who is good right off the bat...with how the game is currently played. It's not guaranteed that way forever, though. Sagat was only upper mid tier when SFIV was young, then jumped to top tier as time went on, then began to slowly shift out of top by the time AE hit Japan, two years after the original release. It still takes years to find out the balance of the game, even with forums.

The variety can make balancing even harder simply because some designs are difficult to get right, and may not be truly understood until a while later. It's not a matter of simple buffing or nerfing. You risk either completely destroy or overcompensating if you do too much and if the game is too young.

This shit is not easy to do, especially so early.

 

[Hellbringer]

Clearly not, because your summary doesn't reflect the arguments made in this article.


If that's how you honestly feel, then you shouldn't have picked this game.
If you're in a tournament and you lose to Superman on rooftop, and you believe that to be the best strategy, then it's on you for not choosing it. You're not getting any sympathy for not choosing what you honestly think gives you the best chance to win.
Conversely, if you are playing to win and don't choose superman/rooftop, then you don't honestly think that those options are overpowered.
We see a whole lot of complaints on this board about shit people lose to, but it's not clearly a problem until people actually shift to that strategy. That's the only way to sift out the scrub complaints and determine what actually is too powerful.

Well lets agree to disagree alright

 

[NightwingDayZero]

This thread...

Fuck Character Variety: Hipsters Among Us

WNF had 13 entrants last night.

This isn't 2003. The market has a voice. New fighting games come out every 6-8 months. No one has to play an balanced game that isn't fun at a high level. Gonna be kinda hard to get all self righteous with the "adapt" catch phrase when no one plays the fucking game.

And maybe you're right. Maybe this game isn't for me, but I'm not the only one thinking that - and with KI3 on the horizon - you might be a little more concerned with the welfare of your community if you hope to see Injustice at EVO 2015.

 

[Flagg]

So why have a massive roster if you should only use 5% of the cast?

 

[Tim Static]

Hey we're all entitled to our own opinions. You can have that. I don't need to read anymore.

but its not an opinion.

your opinion can be the Earth is flat, but its a truth, a facg that it is round. But if you don't bother to read the entire thing, how can you have any opinion at all?

I did read i and understand it. This is not 2003 anymore FYI.

So had it been written 3 weeks ago it wouldn't be right?

I don't see any logical explanation dealing with when this was written.

This thread...

Fuck Character Variety: Hipsters Among Us

WNF had 13 entrants last night.

This isn't 2003. The market has a voice. New fighting games come out every 6-8 months. No one has to play an balanced game that isn't fun at a high level. Gonna be kinda hard to get all self righteous with the "adapt" catch phrase when no one plays the fucking game.

And maybe you're right. Maybe this game isn't for me, but I'm not the only one thinking that - and with KI3 on the horizon - you might be a little more concerned with the welfare of your community if you hope to see Injustice at EVO 2015.

Your mentality is the problem, not the game you play.

 

[haketh]

This thread...

Fuck Character Variety: Hipsters Among Us

WNF had 13 entrants last night.

This isn't 2003. The market has a voice. New fighting games come out every 6-8 months. No one has to play an balanced game that isn't fun at a high level. Gonna be kinda hard to get all self righteous with the "adapt" catch phrase when no one plays the fucking game.

And maybe you're right. Maybe this game isn't for me, but I'm not the only one thinking that - and with KI3 on the horizon - you might be a little more concerned with the welfare of your community if you hope to see Injustice at EVO 2015.

If those people wanna leave, fuck em. THey never liekd the game in the first palce and were just waiting to move on till the next hot thing adn they'll do it again. Gimme the Melty Blood/Blazblue/Guilty Gear scenes over all the people that just left MK and are gonna leave IGAU at the drop of a hat anyday.

Alot of you newer guys are completely and totally missing the point of the article, especially the last half about low tier heroes.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Your mentality is the problem, not the game you play.

WNF had 13 entrants yesterday. Say what you want about me. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

[haketh]

WNF had 13 entrants yesterday. Say what you want about me. The numbers speak for themselves.

Are they 13 devoted people to the game? Was the game played at a great level? Did the people who stopped playing seem actually devoted to the game and leveling up? Numbers does not equal a strong scene. PNW anime scene was only about 15 people, grinding Blazblue hard and became one of the strongest scenes in America and can compete with Japan. Lord Knight plays with a good solid group of 10 people and is able to go in hard with Japanese players in Melty. KOF has basically no presence at most locals in America and is usually one of the least entered games at Majors but it is still a lock for most majors due to the quality of play and it's scene. Stop worrying about numbers so much when 13 players is standard for most games not named Marvel or SF.

 

[ThaShiveGeek]

but its not an opinion.

your opinion can be the Earth is flat, but its a truth, a facg that it is round. But if you don't bother to read the entire thing, how can you have any opinion at all?

If slime said every move in MK is the same, but SF has a variety of moves there for making it better that's opinion.
He biased against MK. He loves SF.
Example
If someone from Rolling Stone did a review on the new Jay-Z album, but was secretly a Lil Wayne fan I'm sure he would bash the album while praising the Dedication 5. It's biased.
Being a Communications Journalist major I think I know what biased Journalism is.
Another example.
If my girlfriend and I go out to eat at lets say Olive Garden my least favorite restaurant I'll complain the whole entire time because I don't like Olive Garden. If we go to Golden Corral my girlfriend will complain the whole entire time because she doesn't like it.

I'm not saying I'm right, and you're wrong. I'm saying that dude is biased against MK. I don't have to read the entire thing. I don't feed into opinions.

Should we go to war?
Should Zimmerman be in Jail?
Is something wrong with Molly Cyrus?
Was 911 an inside job?
Was GW Bush behind Katrina?
Is Lil Wayne the best rapper alive?

It's opinion. All of it.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

the fact that you can't pick out the reason for the essay is the problem

You only read to a certain point and think you know what the rest is about

It has nothing to do with ANY single fighting game.... it has to do with them all.

You'd know that if you read it.

 

[Tim Static]

snip

Man you need to do you're quotes the right way lol

Biased against MK? Why, because at the time it was written, the MK games were a joke because........they were horrible. That isn't an opinion, thats not bias. Thats a fact. I know what you mean, but i don't know why you confine yourself to that mentality that if someone doesn't like something you do like, then its wrong or its not worthy of learning why.

And I've talked to Seth about MK. He told me, just like almost every big time SF player (older generation) is that they all played MK, but when MK4 came out, everyone stopped playing MK because the quality dropped and the product nose dived. I'm sorry if thats not what you want to hear or not what you wish happened or whatever, but its true. He isn't biased towards MK because MK games sucked at the competitive level in the later 90's & 2000's. He's stating facts & truths, and if people don't like to hear that, then thats too bad for them.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

If those people wanna leave, fuck em.

This isn't 2003. Telling a large portion of the community to go fuck themselves is condemning the title.

 

[Dagoth_Gares]

Was 911 an inside job?
Was GW Bush behind Katrina?

Woah there, those are definitely matters of discoverable facts, and not in any way, shape or form matters of opinions.
Also, instead of disregarding something because they say one thing you don't like maybe its better to look at the criticism and think about using it to improve something. If these old MK games had all very similar characters, would it be all that bad for them to become more diverse like it seems NRS has done judging by MK9 and IGAU?

 

[jaym7018]

What's his point? That a balanced fighting game and a varied cast of character playstyles are mutually exclusive, and only scrubs choose the former? Okay. Even if this may have been true in 2003 when it was written, it's not a valid argument in this age of social media, broadband internet, and balance patches. There's absolutely no excuse to not have both now.

This essay, article, blog, whatever it is, isn't relevant.

This exactly, id bet my house if you interviewed 2013 Seth Killian about balance his opinions would be completely different. This article is 10 years old its does not apply in a world where developers of games are a keystroke away a world where dlc and patches are the norm.