Seth Killian on Balance Requests

[ApocaLips]

SRK just re-posted this article, and most of this community could stand to read it.

http://shoryuken.com/2013/09/03/domination-101-prelude-to-a-diss-some-preliminary-remarks-on-balance/

The only thing I'd add is that identifying and investing in characters you think will be the most powerful is a valuable skill for a top player that should be rewarded, not retaliated against. Especially when a game is new - the ability to correctly identify the dominant characters is all the more reason to praise a top player.

 

[Chrishaspads]

waaaay to long to read

 

[SaltFace NS]

I 100% agree with what was said in this article. It's a great read.

 

[jaym7018]

Id be willing to bet even Seth doesnt agree with what he wrote many years ago.

 

[McNasty]

This thread needs bumps!

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

Id be willing to bet even Seth doesnt agree with what he wrote many years ago.

Nope. He did a lot of balancing for Super Street Fighter 4, which is revered as one of the better versions of the game. He's not the last boss of the game for no reason.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ThaShiveGeek]

I stopped reading when he shitted on Mortal Kombat. I'm tired of biased Journalism in all forms of media.

 

[haketh]

I stopped reading when he shitted on Mortal Kombat. I'm tired of biased Journalism in all forms of media.

The article is really really really really old when most of the MK games were pretty shit for competetive play outside of UMK3.

 

[chessmaster]

I agree with everything he said. I think most people only play low tier/unpopular characters to have an excuse for losing or they expect props just for playing said character. Also about that balance vs variety thing, a lot of scrubs/new players don't know that you can only have one or the other. People claim they want balance but don't know that they are watering down the characters in the process.

 

[Hellbringer]

It was interesting to read, the first paragraphs. altough i dont agree with some parts, but that last part was just fucking retarded.

So basically if you dont play a top tier, your a scrub, and no1 should even dare to try and pick a low tier character cause those ppl suck, bit it doesnt matter cause they wont win even when they pick a top tier character.

Wow i never read something that turned from mildly interesting to mega facepalm. Damn

 

[Hellbringer]

I agree with everything he said. I think most people only play low tier/unpopular characters to have an excuse for losing or they expect props just for playing said character. Also about that balance vs variety thing, a lot of scrubs/new players don't know that you can only have one or the other. People claim they want balance but don't know that they are watering down the characters in the process.

So those ppl who just wanna have fun even tough its lowtier should stop playing or being a attentionwhore? Because in the end games are for winning only, fun not included, right?
I spit on your tomb

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

The article is really really really really old when most of the MK games were pretty shit for competetive play outside of UMK3.

that was the game he was referring to mainly....

I guess it makes sense

hard to create unique DC fighters because they're all so bland.

 

[Cossner]

I stopped reading when he shitted on Mortal Kombat. I'm tired of biased Journalism in all forms of media.

To0 hard to read that "THIS WAS WRITTEN BEFORE 2003" first sentence amirite?

Post umk3 games are ass.

 

[Tim Static]

I stopped reading when he shitted on Mortal Kombat. I'm tired of biased Journalism in all forms of media.

Its not bias when its the truth.

Also see the other posts in here, as this was written before 2003)

 

[Tim Static]

ApocaLips Thank you much for posting this link. Its a dose of reality, no matter how long ago it was written, and surely, 99.9% of the NRS community that hasn't read it before REALLY REALLY needs to read this.

I moved it from the Injustice forum to the Fighting Philosophy forum as this pertains to every fighting game, not just IGAU. And we also plan to use this subforum as an educational tool to teach those who need to learn elements of the community like this.

Again, sharing the link: http://shoryuken.com/2013/09/03/domination-101-prelude-to-a-diss-some-preliminary-remarks-on-balance/

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Fuck that. I'm going to demand more from te development team because that is my role as a CONSUMER. I'm purchasing a product. I will demand the best product possible.

I'm on my phone right now, but I remember an interview wherein NRS developers said they wanted to make Aquaman a badass, cool, strong character with options. How many bad MUs does Aquaman have again? Put that time and passion in every character.

 

[ThaShiveGeek]

ApocaLips Thank you much for posting this link. Its a dose of reality, no matter how long ago it was written, and surely, 99.9% of the NRS community that hasn't read it before REALLY REALLY needs to read this.

I moved it from the Injustice forum to the Fighting Philosophy forum as this pertains to every fighting game, not just IGAU. And we also plan to use this subforum as an educational tool to teach those who need to learn elements of the community like this.

Again, sharing the link: http://shoryuken.com/2013/09/03/domination-101-prelude-to-a-diss-some-preliminary-remarks-on-balance/

Hey we're all entitled to our own opinions. You can have that. I don't need to read anymore.

 

[Wildabeast]

It was interesting to read, the first paragraphs. altough i dont agree with some parts, but that last part was just fucking retarded.

So basically if you dont play a top tier, your a scrub, and no1 should even dare to try and pick a low tier character cause those ppl suck, bit it doesnt matter cause they wont win even when they pick a top tier character.

Wow i never read something that turned from mildly interesting to mega facepalm. Damn

That's not what he said at all actually. He said that he feels many lower level players like to pick low tier characters because #1 it gives them an excuse for losing and #2 because they think that picking low-tier/ unpopular characters makes them "cool". Basically they're trying to be rebels purely for the sake of being a rebel.

He even says pick a character you like. The point is that you should not expect props simply because you play a weird character, if you want props you still have to win with said character.

 

[haketh]

Fuck that. I'm going to demand more from te development team because that is my role as a CONSUMER. I'm purchasing a product. I will demand the best product possible.

I'm on my phone right now, but I remember an interview wherein NRS developers said they wanted to make Aquaman a badass, cool, strong character with options. How many bad MUs does Aquaman have again? Put that time and passion in every character.

Good luck ever enjoying a good 99.9% of fighting games. I'm not gonna lie, I'm hella biased on thsi issue due to coming up on MVC2, CVS2, and 3rd Strike. I really don't give a fuck about character balance as long as system mechanics are solid and the game has room for growth. I'd much rather have a set product come out then have it touched too much, I'd rather see NRS stop patching sooner than later.

Though I do agree that more characters should ahve gotten the care and attention characters like Aquaman adn Wonder Woman got it.

 

[chessmaster]

So those ppl who just wanna have fun even tough its lowtier should stop playing or being a attentionwhore? Because in the end games are for winning only, fun not included, right?
I spit on your tomb

I didn't say that. You put words in my mouth.

 

[ELC]

Stopped reading after meta- balance. While I agree this should be the case, the whole point of meta balance is that an option has can check and be checked by other options. What do you say about Aquaman or Black Adam, who do not have solid checks? What about SF2 Akuma?

Basically if you want variety and meta balance, you have to base the game around a rockpaperscissorslizardspock approach

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I love the "stopped reading cuz.... "

why not just read the entire thing and enlight yourself with another look at the situation at hand.

Just freaking ADHD "its not my way so you're wrong" mentality

low level human being play.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Good luck ever enjoying a good 99.9% of fighting games. I'm not gonna lie, I'm hella biased on thsi issue due to coming up on MVC2, CVS2, and 3rd Strike. I really don't give a fuck about character balance as long as system mechanics are solid and the game has room for growth. I'd much rather have a set product come out then have it touched too much, I'd rather see NRS stop patching sooner than later.

Though I do agree that more characters should ahve gotten the care and attention characters like Aquaman adn Wonder Woman got it.

And that mentality is counter intuitive to the advancement of the genre. Telling the development team, "fuck it, you make it - we buy it" gives them the idea that releasing unfinished and unbalanced products is acceptable.

If they put the same work into Shazam or Lobo that they did with Aquaman, we would be talking about a very different game.

 

[haketh]

And that mentality is counter intuitive to the advancement of the genre. Telling the development team, "fuck it, you make it - we buy it" gives them the idea that releasing unfinished and unbalanced products is acceptable.

If they put the same work into Shazam or Lobo that they did with Aquaman, we would be talking about a very different game.

Once again, I'm not saying excuse lazy design and I'm not saying "Fuck it, I'll buy it" *Unless it's as baller as MVC2* I'm just saying at a point people need to stop asking for patches and just roll with what we got and if they don't love it move on. I've said to you before I'm biased due to my upbringing in the scene witht eh games I came up on. Funny how I'm young but old at the same time.

 

[Groove Heaven]

This write-up is cool but honestly it kind of unfairly shuts down the discussion for normalizations and makes it as if only shitty players care about balance. I'm not talking about homogenization when I say Superman's standing 3 does too much damage or that Bladam's mobility and tools make him unapproachable for certain characters, I'm talking about making awful characters viable. I like how NRS varies the tools their characters have, they just have to tweak those tools to make the whole cast competitive. Everyone knows perfect balance can never be achieved, but dramatic imbalance is worth dealing with.

That being said, I don't think IGAU is very unbalanced, definitely not the the level of MK or Brawl, just a few characters could use some help to be more useful.