Seth Killian on Balance Requests

[ELC]

Was GW Bush behind Katrina

Eh?

Anyhow, if Magic: the Gathering is any indication, a good meta-balance would lead to a prediction-based meta near the end of the scene's life: i.e., where knowing the meta you're gonna play is more important than choosing a top-tier deck/character. A bad meta-balance does not need prediction because there is nothing to predict: win as the best character, or lose as the rest.

Does IGAU have that meta-balance? To an extent, yes, but it would be a lot better with a more robust universal system.

 

[ThaShiveGeek]

Man you need to do you're quotes the right way lol

Biased against MK? Why, because at the time it was written, the MK games were a joke because........they were horrible. That isn't an opinion, thats not bias. Thats a fact. I know what you mean, but i don't know why you confine yourself to that mentality that if someone doesn't like something you do like, then its wrong or its not worthy of learning why.

And I've talked to Seth about MK. He told me, just like almost every big time SF player (older generation) is that they all played MK, but when MK4 came out, everyone stopped playing MK because the quality dropped and the product nose dived. I'm sorry if thats not what you want to hear or not what you wish happened or whatever, but its true. He isn't biased towards MK because MK games sucked at the competitive level in the later 90's & 2000's. He's stating facts & truths, and if people don't like to hear that, then thats too bad for them.

Tim & Charlie. I get what yall are saying. The essay has nothing to do with him bashing MK. I get that. I promise. My thing is when I got to the point where he said what he said I personally lost interest. I can get the gist of what it's about through comments. Don't think I don't feel what you're saying. I do, but feel me lol. I'm not rocking with that article. You don't have to explain to me trust me. Don't waste your time. I was done with it yesterday. That's why I said it like "After I read such and such I gave up on it." Now I'm going to go back to listening to this Lil Wayne mixtape. You guys enjoy your Thursday. It's all love slime.

 

[jaym7018]

This thread...

Fuck Character Variety: Hipsters Among Us

WNF had 13 entrants last night.

This isn't 2003. The market has a voice. New fighting games come out every 6-8 months. No one has to play an balanced game that isn't fun at a high level. Gonna be kinda hard to get all self righteous with the "adapt" catch phrase when no one plays the fucking game.

And maybe you're right. Maybe this game isn't for me, but I'm not the only one thinking that - and with KI3 on the horizon - you might be a little more concerned with the welfare of your community if you hope to see Injustice at EVO 2015.

KI wont be at 2015 EVO either.

 

[Hellbringer]

I read everything trust me. I kinda liked the article but like i said, the last paragraphs are just bullshit. Elitisme at his finest.
And gtfo outa here with saying its a fact. The only fact is that the article was written in 2003, and that its posted here and on srk.
Im done with this thread.
Peace out

 

[haketh]

THe last paragraph isn't bullshit because back int eh day you had a ton of dudes who felt they were hot shit because they used bad characters and people using high tier were frauds. This lead to people getting the wrong idea about how to approach games and get better at them. If you wanna play low tier, play low tier. Don't act like your some kind of hero for playing bad characters and handicapping yourself.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

 

[jaym7018]

THe last paragraph isn't bullshit because back int eh day you had a ton of dudes who felt they were hot shit because they used bad characters and people using high tier were frauds. This lead to people getting the wrong idea about how to approach games and get better at them. If you wanna play low tier, play low tier. Don't act like your some kind of hero for playing bad characters and handicapping yourself.

Nobody thought like that everyone just played the same character. Remember every 3rd strike top8

1.chun
2.yun
3.yun
4.chun
5.chun
6.chun
7.yun
8.chun

 

[Hellbringer]

THe last paragraph isn't bullshit because back int eh day you had a ton of dudes who felt they were hot shit because they used bad characters and people using high tier were frauds. This lead to people getting the wrong idea about how to approach games and get better at them. If you wanna play low tier, play low tier. Don't act like your some kind of hero for playing bad characters and handicapping yourself.

This isnt back in the day anymore bro, this is now, some ppl stopped playing streetfighter 2 turbo ya know.

And tell me, where is the line for being a hero with low tier? From wich point are you just are you acting like a hero, is it if you pick the bottom character?
And what is your point? Do you want everyone in a tourney to pick superman or black adam? And if you happen to pick green lantern your a fraud because you dont pick top character and you just wanna be a hero?

smh

Ofcourse i understand you have ppl like that, but it seems like someone got owned by a low tier and made a whole wall of text (jk but would be funny)

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

He makes some valid points, but I can't say that I agree with him. I think basically what he is trying to say is that scrubs tend to blame the game and/or the character before they blame themselves, which makes them stay scrubs. However, I don't think it is as unreasonable to request changes as he makes it out to be. People who are dedicated to the game and compete should be heard when it comes to balancing. I don't think anyone will deny the level of imbalance that currently exists in this game and it is clear that some changes must happen. NRS just has to listen to the right people and test the update extensively (which is what they seem to be doing).

As for MK, I disagree with his logic. Standard moves for the whole cast do not make the game boring. All characters may have the same type of normal but its effectiveness is very different depending on the character.

 

[haketh]

Nobody thought like that everyone just played the same character. Remember every 3rd strike top8

1.chun
2.yun
3.yun
4.chun
5.chun
6.chun
7.yun
8.chun

Only in America and only at one EVO. Compare that EVO to the one before it where the Top 8 was pretty varied. And even a game liek MVC2 saw a ton of variance in Teams *Note teams not characters* in Top 8s at EVO.

And tell me, where is the line for being a hero with low tier? From wich point are you just are you acting like a hero, is it if you pick the bottom character?
And what is your point? Do you want everyone in a tourney to pick superman or black adam? And if you happen to pick green lantern your a fraud because you dont pick top character and you just wanna be a hero?

smh

Ofcourse i understand you have ppl like that, but it seems like someone got owned by a low tier and made a whole wall of text (jk but would be funny)

That's not the point either, the Low Tier Hero is the guy who keeps picking low tier and keeps saying other people are bad for picking top tier. Guys like VDO, Zazza, Justin K, and Vegita-X are low tier MVC2 players but their highly respected, they stick with their guns an don't make excuses. Dan Player #4567 who thinks he's cool for playing bad characters and hates on others for not is whats being targeted in that article. I'm not the biggest fan of the Domination 101 articles *The 3d Games vs 2D one is extremely stupid* but this one is pretty spot on, espeically if you were around back in the day and is relevant due to changes in how games are made nowadays with the ability to frequently patch.

 

[Big Pampering]

Seth killian is a smart guy. When a new game launches everyone has to figure out how the metagame works, which characters are good within this type of metagame, what playstyle they have and whether they fit your style. Youre just wrong if for example in mk9 you play a character like jade or kano and keep complaining about balance. If you have a competitive nature and want to win you will have to pick a character that works well in the games engine and there is no need for you to complain just because you thought it was smart to pick a bottom 5 character.

Picking a top tier is not always as simple as it seems. You have innovators and followers. Innovators almost always end up on top, the first people who decided a particular character is good before anyone else knew are just that talented. You can call it tier whoring or whatever but I don't see pro athletes playing soccer in their socks...top players choose their equipment wisely. Pure examples of top players who know which characters are good from a games early stage: reo, tokido and foxy grampa, there are more top players like this but these are the best examples imo. Reo and foxy are innovators with their characters, why is it so often that the people who play top tier also are the people who have found all the good tech within the game?

Regarding balance requests, I think with the new technology available it is good to fix a lot of stuff that should not be in the game but they should not patch the game every few weeks but like once every half a year or so. A game doesn't die that easily because of imbalance, imo the mk9 and injustice balance is not horrible to the point where it will kill a game. The reason sf4 has lasted this long is because of its support from its players and not necessarily because they were ten times better than any other fighting game out there.

 

[jaym7018]

Seth killian is a smart guy. When a new game launches everyone has to figure out how the metagame works, which characters are good within this type of metagame, what playstyle they have and whether they fit your style. Youre just wrong if for example in mk9 you play a character like jade or kano and keep complaining about balance. If you have a competitive nature and want to win you will have to pick a character that works well in the games engine and there is no need for you to complain just because you thought it was smart to pick a bottom 5 character.

Picking a top tier is not always as simple as it seems. You have innovators and followers. Innovators almost always end up on top, the first people who decided a particular character is good before anyone else knew are just that talented. You can call it tier whoring or whatever but I don't see pro athletes playing soccer in their socks...top players choose their equipment wisely. Pure examples of top players who know which characters are good from a games early stage: reo, tokido and foxy grampa, there are more top players like this but these are the best examples imo. Reo and foxy are innovators with their characters, why is it so often that the people who play top tier also are the people who have found all the good tech within the game?

Regarding balance requests, I think with the new technology available it is good to fix a lot of stuff that should not be in the game but they should not patch the game every few weeks but like once every half a year or so. A game doesn't die that easily because of imbalance, imo the mk9 and injustice balance is not horrible to the point where it will kill a game. The reason sf4 has lasted this long is because of its support from its players and not necessarily because they were ten times better than any other fighting game out there.

If SF4 isnt 10x better than every other fighting game then why does it garner so much support from the more serious players.

 

[Big Pampering]

If SF4 isnt 10x better than every other fighting game then why does it garner so much support from the more serious players.

hey isnt that batman in your picture, cool...

 

[ApocaLips]

WNF had 13 entrants last night.

Tournament attendance was down for all games across the board across the country because it's the first week of school for most institutions. But you're right, it probably has nothing to do with that and everything to do with a handful of butthurt scrubs realizing that they have to pick who they actually think gives them the best chance to win in order to maximize their chances to win.

Also note that Seth isn't saying not to request better balance in general. He's just saying that you can't blame your current losses on the current balance. It's entirely your fault for misevaluating the characters and failing to pick the one that maximizes your chance to win.

That said, most nerf cries are just knee jerk reactions to things that people lose to or are afraid of losing to, rather than honest evaluations of what would be best for the game. It's just a thinly veiled example of what Seth is talking about.

snip

This is a great point, although I think I can say it a little more concisely. There's a massive difference between playing who you think will give you the best chance to win and playing who others think gives the best chance to win overall. The masses are often very wrong about the best characters early on in a game's life, and the innovators will discover the tech to prove them wrong.

No one is saying pick specifically superman or bladam. If you honestly think they're the best and fit your style the best, then pick them. If you think someone else is secretly the best, pick that character.

The community also needs to divorce player performance from character performance, but that's a topic for another day.

 

[jaym7018]

hey isnt that batman in your picture, cool...

Its the first injustice related pic i found. I didnt like my little box being empty.

 

[haketh]

If SF4 isnt 10x better than every other fighting game then why does it garner so much support from the more serious players.

Because it's where the money is at and where most of the scene goes to play due to branding, advertising, and the fact that it's SF.I'm not gonna say it's bad *I hate the game personally* but it's a game that comes together to be very easy for a ton of people to play at a basic level and watch. Theres no much going on in the game that takes a hard time to figure out whats going on.

 

[Big Pampering]

__

Yeah I am not telling people to pick the best or second best character but you should be fine as long as you pick a top 15 character and the game kinda allows you to win bad matchups within top 15 which is usually a little less than half the cast to choose from which is fine imo. It would be great if they could balance the game to the point where you can do this with almost 20 characters. But you shouldnt be complaining if you are picking a shitty character that is bottom 5.

 

[Wigy]

SRK just re-posted this article, and most of this community could stand to read it.

http://shoryuken.com/2013/09/03/domination-101-prelude-to-a-diss-some-preliminary-remarks-on-balance/

The only thing I'd add is that identifying and investing in characters you think will be the most powerful is a valuable skill for a top player that should be rewarded, not retaliated against. Especially when a game is new - the ability to correctly identify the dominant characters is all the more reason to praise a top player.

My ass, anybody can tell which characters tools are good. Stop giving credit where not due, people see what characters are good, pick them up and do well with them. Day 1 everybody was hyping superman, black adam and aquaman. Guess what they're still the best, everybody even a medicore player could tell they'd be top. This is just another reason for people to rationalise tier whoring. I don't really care about who the other person goes unless they constantly counterpick, but just idealistically the game would be waaaay better if people picked up characters that they enjoyed not ones that prove how big their internet-penis is. Unless theirs money at stake whats the point.

Sick of people justifying it with stupid shit like this saying its smart and part of being a good player, gtfo with that mess. I don't play SF but i could google and find out top 8 characters in 3 seconds.

 

[jaym7018]

Because it's where the money is at and where most of the scene goes to play due to branding, advertising, and the fact that it's SF.I'm not gonna say it's bad *I hate the game personally* but it's a game that comes together to be very easy for a ton of people to play at a basic level and watch. Theres no much going on in the game that takes a hard time to figure out whats going on.

But why is it where the moneys at? MK is every bit as big as SF from a branding and advertising standpoint but nobody plays it seriously (compared to sf). MK is infinitely easier to play than SF always has been that fact and the violence and boobs is why it outsells SF but still it never last asa competitive game. Injustice is an easier game with some of the most recognizable characters in pop culture and its also not on SF level in terms of amount of people playing it seriously.

 

[ApocaLips]

My ass, anybody can tell which characters tools are good. Stop giving credit where not due, people see what characters are good, pick them up and do well with them. Day 1 everybody was hyping superman, black adam and aquaman. Guess what they're still the best, everybody even a medicore player could tell they'd be top. This is just another reason for people to rationalise tier whoring.

So I guess you knew all along that O.thawk was a decent character in ST? That Kabal was actually better than Lao in MK9? That Magneto was top tier in MvC2? I wish you were around on day 1 to tell everyone that.

I don't really care about who the other person goes unless they constantly counterpick, but just idealistically the game would be waaaay better if people picked up characters that they enjoyed not ones that prove how big their internet-penis is. Unless theirs money at stake whats the point.

We aren't talking about internet randoms.

Sick of people justifying it with stupid shit like this saying its smart and part of being a good player, gtfo with that mess. I don't play SF but i could google and find out top 8 characters in 3 seconds.

And if you think the inquiry ends there, you'll go 0-2 in a tournament for sure, as Seth plainly describes in this article. And if you think the top8 in ST day 1 was the same as the top 8 now, you're sorely mistaken.

 

[RadicalFuzz]

I stopped reading when he shitted on Mortal Kombat. I'm tired of biased Journalism in all forms of media.

Is there some kind of anti-MK bias in the news that I'm unaware of? Last time I checked Dustloop, SRK, and here most people (including writers) think that the fighting game they play is better than the others, hence why they play it. He was talking about the MK series from pre-2003, not anything in the last decade. Just because he didn't like those (Oh no, an article writer doesn't like the game I play) doesn't mean he hates MK9. Hell, he despises 3rd Strike with a passion because of the parry system but he personally worked on balancing SF4.

 

[haketh]

Hell people on here shit on MK hella hard, funny seeing the bias coming about.

 

[nightE89]

Awesome read man