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Sep. 29th 2020 Presidential Debate Discussion

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
The discussion or the 8%? The deductions I saw as a smaller LLC meant bonuses and pay raises across the board, comfier buffer between inventory restocks, and upgraded systems and store infrastructure. The vast majority of business (89%) have under 20 people, whom absolutely deserve the leeway provided under a lower tax burden.
Either. Trump isn't a policy guy, so he'd quickly get lost trying to actually talk about tax policy. As for raising the corporate tax rate by 8%, it wouldn't have much economic impact in the long run. There's a lot that goes into business planning and decisions, taxes are just a small part. Plus corporations are already pretty good about tax planning and using strategies to keep their effective tax rate low. The TCJA's corporate tax rate cut hasn't done much for the US economy overall. Raising it back up by 8% won't likely do much either, other than generate slightly more revenue. https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/did-tcjas-corporate-rate-cuts-work-promised-no-signs-yet

Don't get me wrong, I think the corporate income tax is a pretty inefficient way to try and tax businesses, so I'd be fine scrapping it altogether and putting in a VAT or some other consumption tax, or just making up the lost revenue by raising individual income taxes on the wealthy, which is normally what people want from the corporate income tax anyways.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
I don't think this is an honest comparison at all. Don't get me wrong, I will always disapprove looting and destruction of private property, but there's a pretty big difference between people abusing an overall good ideal to commit crimes - which happens with every ideology, every time people come together around an idea - and a way of thinking that's inherently hateful and pretty much revolves around inciting violence.
Hit the nail right on the head.

Both sides are trying to make the other look like terrorists, but only one of those groups actually believe in race supremacy. There are extremists on both sides and that's always dangerous, but them pussy boys or whatever they call themselves, I can sense their misogyny all the way to Canada. I thought the strong winter winds would kill that shit, but nope. Only one of those groups is going to buy assault rifles to 'protect themselves' and 'stand by', yikes.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
I'm not really sure what Biden is supposed to do, though. When President Trump is breaking rules and acting how he acts, is there any way Biden can make the debate look legit by himself? If one candidate throws enough mud it's going to look like a mud bath no matter what.

There's just really no point in debating President Trump.
Yeah, no I agree with this: There was nothing Biden could have done to make the debate look legitimate. Trump is completely lacking any manners, sense of shame, or intellectual honesty. Even Chris Wallace was wishing he'd had a mute button for Trump's mic.

I'm mostly waxing nostalgic, thinking back to the Biden of 2012 when he eviscerated Paul Ryan in the VP debate. He hit just the right balance of knowledge, confidence, and lovable "Uncle Joe", and he made Ryan (who was the darling of the right, much more so than Romney) look like a whiny, ignorant child. I was hoping for more of that last night. But time has taken a toll, and Biden seemed to quickly lose energy and become frustrated. It will be interesting to see if and how he changes his approach in the next debate (assuming anyone thinks there's a point to having one).
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Normally, there should be a broad group of people in the political center that decide the election and that no longer vote for Trump after what he has said. It seems, however, that the political left has also shifted to an extreme and moved away from the political center just as much.
I wish for nothing more than open-minded political discourse. - But in this respect things really don't look good in the US:
  • On the one hand you have Trump, who makes any discourse impossible by personal insults.
  • On the other hand you have a representative of leftists, who like discourse exactly as long as it serves their cause.
I think that's a bit of a false equivalence.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/opinion/sunday/republicans-broke-congress-politics.html
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Hmmm, I feel bad for just posting a video, that's the lazy man's out.

I agree that both parties have trended towards polarization, but Republicans have trended a lot harder or more in that direction than Democrats have.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I don't think this is an honest comparison at all. Don't get me wrong, I will always disapprove looting and destruction of private property, but there's a pretty big difference between people abusing an overall good ideal to commit crimes - which happens with every ideology, every time people come together around an idea - and a way of thinking that's inherently hateful and pretty much revolves around inciting violence.
The "good ideal" is based on the false premise that police are actively "hunting down", to use the words of the wise LeBron James, Black men in America. This type of rhetoric, also promoted by the mainstream media, is as dangerous as anything outrageous Trump says or tweets because of the unjustified tension it creates between police and Black communities.
 

NeonGroovyGator

Vampire mommy simp
The "good ideal" is based on the false premise that police are actively "hunting down", to use the words of the wise LeBron James, Black men in America. This type of rhetoric, also promoted by the mainstream media, is as dangerous as anything outrageous Trump says or tweets because of the unjustified tension it creates between police and Black communities.
Are we really gonna strawman like that?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
only liberals are mad about how he pays 750 in taxes...but okay with illegal immigrants paying ZERO.
Try again:


It’s pretty amazing (or scary) that many people who aren’t even citizens paid more taxes than the president of the US.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
There's a lot that goes into business planning and decisions, taxes are just a small part. Plus corporations are already pretty good about tax planning and using strategies to keep their effective tax rate low.
The average operation that constitutes that 89% generally do not qualify for or otherwise cannot take advantage of the more egregious examples of... evasive tax strategy, particularly depending on industry. Since I sold firearms there were a myriad of opportunities not available to me.

The TCJA's corporate tax rate cut hasn't done much for the US economy overall. Raising it back up by 8% won't likely do much either, other than generate slightly more revenue. https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/did-tcjas-corporate-rate-cuts-work-promised-no-signs-yet
Looking at your source which specifically claims that wage growth and investment won't improve as a result the following factors:

"First, corporations must attract and retain additional funds" - No, the second I wasn't paying as much on my annual pawn balances and sales that capital was available.

"Second, they must invest these funds in new plants, equipment, and processes." - Check, completing in the time it took to shop online and wait for shipping. Some online training for the new POS system as well.

"Third, the new investments must increase worker productivity." - Correct. Investments into a small business can't be superficial in nature and must always directly correlate to improved internal efficiency or customer experience. But basic improvements to a POS system, computers, inventory software, etc represent an immediate increase in productivity barring the time it takes to familiarize.

"Finally, the workers must negotiate higher wages." - At least for me, they didn't need to but I understand that this isn't the case for most.

I understand that my personal experience may not translate across the board, but I can only relate to my own experience as an average case.

Your source also delves into how corporations aren't investing as much, instead electing to buy their own stock back. This as well as the intended tenor of the mentioned factors above highlights for me the problem that when people discuss corporations, they get tunnel vision. 98.2% of businesses have fewer than 100 employees. 89% have fewer than 20. These don't represent people with lobby power or investment capital, it represents people who on average take home 36K a year after expenses. When I was active I handled close to a million in inventory assets and ran a running pawn balance in the realm of 200,000 (with a 20 percent monthly interest rate mind you). I made less then the beforementioned average of 36K after costs. People like me are not the ones deserving of an additional tax burden. To relate this to the debate, when Biden in the beginning admonishes taking advantage of deductions, but later on says his method of combating climate change will be to provide tax incentives to companies bringing their carbon footprint down my frustrations begins to peak as the only organizations who have the resources to entirely shift production or infrastructure to accommodate are the massive corporations who represent less than 2% percent.

Don't get me wrong, I think the corporate income tax is a pretty inefficient way to try and tax businesses, so I'd be fine scrapping it altogether and putting in a VAT or some other consumption tax, or just making up the lost revenue by raising individual income taxes on the wealthy, which is normally what people want from the corporate income tax anyways.
Understood. I personally don't have a solution I find internally satisfactory.
 

Arqwart

D'Vorah for KP2 copium
Yahoo is reporting that the Biden campaign raised $3.8 million in one hour during the debate last night. LOL.
Not too surprising by any means. A TON of people are so sick of Trump that watching Biden call him a clown and tell him to "shut up, man" excited them to no end. The internet is buzzing with those quotes as huge positives, portraying the comments as "someone finally saying what America is feeling."
 

SubZeroIce

Runway
What amazes me is the fact that Trump has no problem just straight up lying to our faces but couldn't even try to lie when asked if he dounces white supremacy. Like, he could've just said like ya, i denounce it. We all know he'd be lying but at least he would've said it.
It says a LOT that he didn't say anything.

Disgusting, evil man. Not surprised there's people in here defending him or trying to play devil's advocate :coffee:.

This country's joke commander in chief lost the vote in 2016, I don't think he's gained that many new supporters. He barely won...
 

Zer0_h0ur

XBL tag: South of Zero
What amazes me is the fact that Trump has no problem just straight up lying to our faces but couldn't even try to lie when asked if he dounces white supremacy. Like, he could've just said like ya, i denounce it. We all know he'd be lying but at least he would've said it.
He was 100% prepped not to say anything if baited because those are his most fervent and loyal voters. A simple "lie" of denouncing it would enrage his most loyal of loyalists. The degree to which white supremacy has pervaded our 2012-2020 reality will become more apparent as the years wear on. Hard to fully appreciate it when we're surrounded by it.

The dude's gotten away with exposed tax fraud and allowing bounties on our precious US troops solely bc he hates and keeps down the people that white supremacists hate and wish to keep down.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
You can post your opinion, your views, as long as there's no hate and you aren't flaming, but no one wants to see ridiculous conspiracy theories. Keep that for the YT comment section. If you want to debate, debate, but don't incite with idiotic statements that aren't the least bit verified.

Thanks <3
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I had the opportunity to read the deleted post. He was neither flaming anyone nor spreading conspiracy theories. Supporting Trump is his business. A lot worse has been posted in the Filipino Champ thread. His post should not have been deleted.
 

sub_on_dubs

Online Scrub Lord
Why did @sub_on_dubs post get deleted?
They don't like right wing opinions on this site Dave. I think you know nearly all of the moderators are super lefties on this site. I'm actually surprised they tolerated me for this long so I can't be that mad. Keep spitting that logic my friend.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I understand that my personal experience may not translate across the board, but I can only relate to my own experience as an average case.

Your source also delves into how corporations aren't investing as much, instead electing to buy their own stock back. This as well as the intended tenor of the mentioned factors above highlights for me the problem that when people discuss corporations, they get tunnel vision. 98.2% of businesses have fewer than 100 employees. 89% have fewer than 20. These don't represent people with lobby power or investment capital, it represents people who on average take home 36K a year after expenses.
One thing to keep in mind is that while a majority of corporations or businesses are small, when it comes to economic impact most of that comes from a relatively small amount of very large corporations/businesses. Even if your own personal experience really is the "average", it unfortunately doesn't matter as much because your economic weight isn't proportional.


Understood. I personally don't have a solution I find internally satisfactory.
My main wish is that taxes are kept simple and efficient, and done in way that raises enough revenue to pay for all the government services we need to pay for, and implemented in as fair a way as possible. Obviously those last two items cause no end of debate and disagreement.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
I had the opportunity to read the deleted post. He was neither flaming anyone nor spreading conspiracy theories. Supporting Trump is his business. A lot worse has been posted in the Filipino Champ thread. His post should not have been deleted.
The baseless assertion that Biden was being fed answers by an ear piece is, in fact, a conspiracy theory designed to delegitimize a candidate.
 

sub_on_dubs

Online Scrub Lord
You can post your opinion, your views, as long as there's no hate and you aren't flaming, but no one wants to see ridiculous conspiracy theories. Keep that for the YT comment section. If you want to debate, debate, but don't incite with idiotic statements that aren't the least bit verified.

Thanks <3
Nothing I said was a conspiracy theory Vslayer and even if it was, I should have the right to say it if you believe in free speech. You've obviously chosen your side on that issue. I thought you were one of the more sane moderators on here, but I guess I was wrong.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
I had the opportunity to read the deleted post. He was neither flaming anyone nor spreading conspiracy theories. Supporting Trump is his business. A lot worse has been posted in the Filipino Champ thread. His post should not have been deleted.
Biden getting questions beforehand, ear pieces not getting checked etc., those are conspiracies to me. Debate your own views, that's fine, but that stuff is just going to incite people coming at them and devolving what should be a debate into a flame war, as was the case here. I wasn't around a lot for the Champ thread, but if people don't tag I can't see or screen every single post.

Truth of the matter is, all politicians are scum and politics are sus so don't put all your faith in 'em yeah?
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
Nothing I said was a conspiracy theory Vslayer and even if it was, I should have the right to say it if you believe in free speech. You've obviously chosen your side on that issue. I thought you were one of the more sane moderators on here, but I guess I was wrong.
Listen I'm trying to be fair here, but someone already replied to ya and there wasn't going to be any good discussion coming out of it, and yes, saying Biden got questions first and that they didn't check earpieces is a conspiracy theory. As I said, the rest was fine.