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Match-up Discussion Scorpion Vs. Kung Lao?

isnt b2 pretty slow compared to spear, so will you have enough time to take the ex teleport into account? and if you jumpkick teleport you can catch him on the other side with 111 spear which is still a very good option.
B2 is a few frames slower, but it's less punishable if it were to whiff. It also doesn't scale if used as an AA.
 
Kungs b33 is only -8 on block. Smoke smoke bomb on block is -7 and no one ever really punishes it unless they time it perfectly. so u still gotta watch out for that b33, the most u could hope to get is a poke or possibly reptiles dash or kung laos spin in the mirror, lol.
-8 is a free throw attempt, and 3,3,4 check.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
This is a 6-4 MU, but is a very winnable 6-4. It's slight advantage in KL's favor due to his mobility, and fast/safe pressure. The only reason this is not a 7-3 is probably because Scorp gets more opportunities to punish opposed to his other 6-4s, and he punishes Lao HARD! The key to this MU is to turtle. Advancing on KL is similar to trying to rush-down Cage with Scorp...your simply making the MU easier for him. When you turtle you have to counter his every attemp to get in.

Ground Game:

Full-screen: Scorpion gets the better of KL from full-screen distance. KL loses the projectile war because the Hellfire trade is in Scorp's favor. He won't be able to build meter safely from far range, so you won't be fighting at full-screen all too often. KL also has some of the best mobility in the game! His Tele~3, Dive Kick, and F3 roll will allow him to close the distance at the drop of a dime. You should always be prepared to counter his efforts to advance on you. Scorp can effectively defend against all 3 of his advancing options by forward dash blocking, and reacting to the move he used.

Mid-screen: This is Scorp's ideal range in this MU, but your ability to read your opponent will be tested heavily at this distance. KL becomes a mixup at this range. He can alter his jump by using Tele~3 in the air to throw off your AA. He'll use this a lot to discourage you from AAing to get the free jip, which will allow him to easily pressure. F3 roll is also a mixup. On block it's -4, and can be d1 checked. However, he can cancel into Spin for a free combo, so you have to make the correct reads. Scorp needs to keep KL at this distance. Even though KL has plenty of mixups, he still can't pressure/build meter.

Close Range: The most dangerous range in this MU. Because of KL's mobility you'll find yourself at this range the most in this MU. KL has every advantage possible at this range. The only time you want to be at this range is when your pressuring/building meter. Your main tool to escape his pressure is d1. I personally like to follow up with d4 to get some extra space. Your goal is to GET THE HELL AWAY!!!
:x X-ray:
Once KL has 3 bars it instantly changes the MU to 7-3. This is the best X-ray in the game for obvious reasons. It allows KL to shut down all of Scorp's offense and counters. More importantly, it makes up for his lack of useful mids, and allows him to recklessly pressure.
Punishment:
Spin: :fp,:fp~Spear
:exSpin:
Hat Toss/Low Hat: Hellfire Trade| :exSpear| :fk,:fk~Spear (on block)
Dive Kick: :l+:bp combo
:exDive Kick:
Teleport: Forward dash :l+:bp
:exTeleport:
:bp,:bk,:fp+:bp: :exSpear/:exTakedown after blocked :bk
the 2 1+2 double tele is higher dmg to punish spin
 
This is a 6-4 MU, but is a very winnable 6-4. It's slight advantage in KL's favor due to his mobility, and fast/safe pressure. The only reason this is not a 7-3 is probably because Scorp gets more opportunities to punish opposed to his other 6-4s, and he punishes Lao HARD! The key to this MU is to turtle. Advancing on KL is similar to trying to rush-down Cage with Scorp...your simply making the MU easier for him. When you turtle you have to counter his every attemp to get in.

Ground Game:

Full-screen: Scorpion gets the better of KL from full-screen distance. KL loses the projectile war because the Hellfire trade is in Scorp's favor. He won't be able to build meter safely from far range, so you won't be fighting at full-screen all too often. KL also has some of the best mobility in the game! His Tele~3, Dive Kick, and F3 roll will allow him to close the distance at the drop of a dime. You should always be prepared to counter his efforts to advance on you. Scorp can effectively defend against all 3 of his advancing options by forward dash blocking, and reacting to the move he used.

Mid-screen: This is Scorp's ideal range in this MU, but your ability to read your opponent will be tested heavily at this distance. KL becomes a mixup at this range. He can alter his jump by using Tele~3 in the air to throw off your AA. He'll use this a lot to discourage you from AAing to get the free jip, which will allow him to easily pressure. F3 roll is also a mixup. On block it's -4, and can be d1 checked. However, he can cancel into Spin for a free combo, so you have to make the correct reads. Scorp needs to keep KL at this distance. Even though KL has plenty of mixups, he still can't pressure/build meter.

Close Range: The most dangerous range in this MU. Because of KL's mobility you'll find yourself at this range the most in this MU. KL has every advantage possible at this range. The only time you want to be at this range is when your pressuring/building meter. Your main tool to escape his pressure is d1. I personally like to follow up with d4 to get some extra space. Your goal is to GET THE HELL AWAY!!!
:x X-ray:
Once KL has 3 bars it instantly changes the MU to 7-3. This is the best X-ray in the game for obvious reasons. It allows KL to shut down all of Scorp's offense and counters. More importantly, it makes up for his lack of useful mids, and allows him to recklessly pressure.
Punishment:
Spin: :fp,:fp~Spear
:exSpin:
Hat Toss/Low Hat: Hellfire Trade| :exSpear| :fk,:fk~Spear (on block)
Dive Kick: :l+:bp combo
:exDive Kick:
Teleport: Forward dash :l+:bp
:exTeleport:
:bp,:bk,:fp+:bp: :exSpear/:exTakedown after blocked :bk
kung lao doesnt even need his mobility in this matchup because scorpion doesnt have anything to keep you out. kung lao can play and should play this game more safely because scorpion punishes hard and imo that is the only way scorpion can win this matchup, by punishing what kung lao does.
the hellfire isnt a good tool in this matchup because kung lao can whiff a dive kick and full combo punish you, also if you try to pressure with hellfire on knockdown, kung lao can on reaction teleport 3 you into 43% without meter. also scorpion doesnt win the projectile war because with kung lao you never deal with his projectiles only but also his dive kick and teleport. whiffed dive kick over hellfire is full combo a lot of times, the only thing kl has to worry about is a random spear which is a great risk for scorpion. in the same way kung lao doesnt lose to sonya and jax in a projectile war, kung lao doesnt lose to scorpion.(despite the fact jax and sonya have by far better projectiles)


also I dont know if you meant by dash blocking forward you meant messing up his instant whiff dive kick, imo kung lao should never whiff a dive kick into point blank range unless the kl players has established something, kung lao should whiff the dive kick to be in the position where he can dash up and connect his standing 2 or d4.

21/24/1121/21212 pressure works great against scorpion because he doesnt have good options against rushdown. also I dont think he can punish 21212 on block. also scorpion doesnt have a standing anti cross up so he has to deal with the crossover jump kick combo which beats d1.
 
The hellfire trade is what players need to know if he ever thinks he can ever start up a projectile zone. Scorpion doesn't have to deal with it, and you do it on reaction to his projectiles like any other Hellfire trade. I never said you just throw Hellfire out. Low Hat is like 7% bro. If the Scorpion player has good reactions KL will eat 14% every single time he throws a hat. How is that not winning the projectile war? Kano's knife is faster than both of KL's Hats and probably have better recovery, but the Hellfire trade is a big reason why that MU is 6-4 Scorp.

When your being a turtle you have the advantage to attack while your opponent is advancing, and to counter incoming attacks. KL should be played in the same fashion as Tetra Spirit's Baraka when he beat Khaotic's Kitana. Don't give him much and counter his every attempt to pressure you. KL doesn't need his mobility, but at the same time if he doesn't use it he makes the MU even easier on the Scorpion player. Did I not say you'll be fighting this MU in close range most times?

Lets not act like any of that crap is free because it isn't. Technically no character has to deal with it. Any character can get out if they make the correct read. He also has to do the kick high, which means he cannot follow up on block.

Dashing into the dive kick fucks up the spacing. It's the same concept as dashing into Kabal's dash to get a punish.
 
The hellfire trade is what players need to know if he ever thinks he can ever start up a projectile zone. Scorpion doesn't have to deal with it, and you do it on reaction to his projectiles like any other Hellfire trade. I never said you just throw Hellfire out. Low Hat is like 7% bro. If the Scorpion player has good reactions KL will eat 14% every single time he throws a hat. How is that not winning the projectile war?

When your being a turtle you have the advantage to attack while your opponent is advancing, and to counter incoming attacks. KL should be played in the same fashion as Tetra Spirit's Baraka when he beat Khaotic's Kitana. Don't give him much and counter his every attempt to pressure you. KL doesn't need his mobility, but at the same time if he doesn't use it he makes the MU even easier on the Scorpion player. Did I not say you'll be fighting this MU in close range most times?

Lets not act like any of that crap is free because it isn't. Technically no character has to deal with it. Any character can get out if they make the correct read. He also has to do the kick high, which means he cannot follow up on block.

Dashing into the dive kick fucks up the spacing. It's the same concept as dashing into Kabal's dash to get a punish.
read my post one more time, youre basically saying what I just said, you will never enter a projectile war with kung lao because a good kung lao wont ever make you only deal with his hat.

dashing in is only gonna work if the kung lao is not good at whiffing dive kicks, the dive kick is not at its beast when whiffed into point blank but into the range where he can dash up and do 21/d4/jumpin. the dive kick is 6 frames, you can't really mess it up if used correctly. dashing up isn't gonna work, because the kung lao player should be aware of this and at the end of the day dashing up will only close the distance between you and kung lao.
 
I read and understood your post. You said he doesn't have to throw his hat, how he can punish a Hellfire in general, and on wake-up. Yet, what you didn't understand is that I said you have to use Hellfire on reaction to Hats. I never said to use Hellfire as a tactic to flat out pressure.

Dashing in still work. D1 will beat his 21/d4. A jumpin is never viable against a good Scorpion unless you have Sonya's dive kick. He has some of the best AA damage in the game. I'm sure you know that though.

SIDE NOTE: Did you know that if you whiff a d1/d3 you can dash out of a crossover attempt?
 
Scorpion can beat Kung Lao, because Kung Lao players don't use their brains. I'ts amazing how careless they are with their divekicks. When I see a divekick coming, I'm going to dash forward and block it.
This is in know way a hard MU.

The mistake they make is too much jumping. It's free against people who make bad reads, and don't have good reactions. I know you know exactly how to punish Lao for jumping lol. You punished me every time I tried to crossover you when we ran this MU.

I still have those matches on my laptop. I think I'll upload them to youtube :D.
 
PerfectMindGame
Keep in mind that my OP is simply general info I think players should know when approaching this MU. It's not really a detailed guide on the MU.
I know I am not blowing you up or anything I just want to discuss the matchup in detail, thats what the forum is for. you know the problem is, one of the basics of kung lao is by throwing a low hat, you bait the opponent into counterzoning, which is exactly what kung lao wants. You can see this very clearly in the kenshi matchup and perfect legend/tom brady do this very well. after throwing a few hats, they start to use their teleport to blow you up, because the kenshi player will start to throw out his push, giving kung lao free teleports. same thing with hellfire, it is horrible on whiff.

also about the whiffing d1/d3, I know some d3/d4 in the game lower your hitbox, but d1 is not one of them iirc. if you mess up d1 anti air you will eat a crossover. scorpion has a d4 that lowers his hitbox, but you shouldnt rely on this too much in a LOT of matchups because a lot of good players use crossover jumpkick and most of them get good damage off of it and some can even combo:

for example: kitana jumpkick fan, cage jkick f3 nutpunch, kunglao jkick roll spin full combo, jax jumpkick gotcha grab, kabal jkick f4 nomad dash.

about the d4/d1 beating kung lao strings, yes that is the way to get out of his pressure and it takes a good kl player and a lot of time to not get frustrated by this, however I have a lot of countermeasures against this. also keep this in mind. a block 21 is 3% on block. you get 2% of off d1 on hit and 3% on d4. if I hit you it is big trouble. and the thing players have to keep in mind against KL against 21 pressures there are only 2 universal ways out. poke or armor, you cannot jump out, you will get hit midair. but the kung lao players have a lot of options:

- 21 pressure is +6 on hit so kung lao player will get free standing 3(hits mid)/d4/d3. his poke will be faster than yours and kung lao DOES get frame advantage off of pokes on hit. if you dont want to eat a standing 3 you will block, which is another 21/1121/2121/24
- 21212 you cant visually confirm whether the string is gonna end at 21 or if the whole string will come out, if the full string comes out and you didnt expect it, its gonna be 29% hitconfirm, if you block it youre gonna eat 7% chip.
-24, 24 on its own is +4 on hit which is free standing 3/d3. 24 can always end in overhead, into lot of mindgames and advantage on that hard knockdown.
- crossover
-crossover jumpkick to beat d1 anti crossover

these are general kung lao options upclose and there is a lot more, be aware, scorpion can armor out with takedown but that isnt anything significant, ex spear is great, but between pressure kung lao will d3/d4 which makes you spear whiff and then youre dead, he can also jump and depending on the situation you will whiff a spear and get full combp punished.

keep in mind during this whole pressure game kung lao will chip you a lot/build meter and your character will only receive meter for receiving raw damage, not for chip damage.

Ps. please dont misunderstand, I think it is 6-4 kung lao as well, and I might make it look like scorpion is getting wrecked in this matchup but I am merely stating the facts and listing kung laos options in the matchup, because I am sure you will list scorpions options( I remember you from back in the days when I used to main scorpion).
 
PerfectMindGame Im all for discussing in full detail. This is my favorite Scorpion MU. :D

I know about that bait. I use it on NW and Kenshi the most. However, with Scorpion you have to perform the Hellfire during the active frames so he can't move. That's why it's important to do it on reaction.

After pokes you can buffer in a forward/back dash to create more space. I love doing this in all MUs!

Lao has a lot at his disposal. When I use him, I like to bait pokes and whiff punish with b1.

Using him helped me to understand what I should do against him. Another goal should be to mess up his momentum.

Spear shouldn't be used outside of combo ever! Ex Spear should only be used as a reactive punish. I did have it phase through KL when he did f2 at point blank range, but that was only online.
 

coolwhip

Noob
-Those characters options you listed "cage jkick f3 nutpunch, kunglao jkick roll spin full combo etc.", those are all deep jk starters. That means you won't be able to do them on crossover.


.
Actually Kung Lao can combo off of a regular jk on a grounded opponent. He can cross you over, then do jk/dk roll etc... It doesn't have to be a deep jk.
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
I enjoy countering KL players with my teleport into combo damage :) and baiting spins for free spear into damage. Scorp can deal with KL pending you know what you're doing.
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
old ass thread xD

i hate dealing with scorpion in general with any character, too much yolo. if playing footsies with unsafe 50/50's isn't yolo, i don't know what is.