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General/Other - Ninjitsu scorpion in the neutral

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
So I recently picked up ninjitsu and I'm still learning but I'm struggling in the neutral.
I try to stay in the f2/b2 range and after reading through the forums starting use throws a lot more.
I feel like I'm missing something and came to ask for some tips? Thanks in advance
 

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
What exactly is giving you trouble? Jump ins? Or something else. I'm no Scorpion player but I'll still try to help.
 

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
What exactly is giving you trouble? Jump ins? Or something else. I'm no Scorpion player but I'll still try to help.
Its more how to start my offense and also the jump ins since I'm new to character I haven't figured out his best AA. Ive had some luck with b2 if I'm spaced right. Should I contest the jump ins with his jik since its so strong?
 

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Its more how to start my offense and also the jump ins since I'm new to character I haven't figured out his best AA. Ive had some luck with b2 if I'm spaced right. Should I contest the jump ins with his jik since its so strong?
His jk has a lot of priority so that's a good option if you can react to jump ins. Otherwise trip guarding with B2? (The single hitting move) is probably the most reliable way to go against characters without ridiculous jump ins, whereas jk is probably best for characters like Lao and Kotal.

With Ninjutsu you need to space yourself properly and whiff punish your opponents. He doesn't have any easy mode way to get his offense started but once he does you can try for the vortex.

Hopefully that helps, I'm sure a Scorpion main will be able to add more to this than me though.
 

Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
Walk back a lot. Whiff punish stuff. Throw a lot. Just run up and throw people when they least expect it. Condition them to tech throws and then, throw out F2 and blow them up.

Scorpion's JIK has ridiculous priority and you can use it as a consistent AA. D2 is always better than nothing, though.

Watch @YOMI RM JagoBlake 's matches for some ideas.

Ninjutsu is a very honest character, and is very rewarding when done right. I wish you the best.
 

ArmageddonUMK

LongJohnCena
Try using njp against jump ins. It has far better range in this variation, just gotta make the read. In neutral, use d4, as your poke, and, as was said before, walk backwards a lot. Max range f2 out ranges pretty much everything, and is safe on block. So basically, if the opponent closes, use d4 to poke and gain advantge, otherwise try and stay out of their range, while staying in range of f2 in order to whiff punish, and force your opponent to walk/jump in to either an f2 or njp. Also, when using d4, you get frames (not quite sure off the top of my head), but after a connected d4, run in throw is a great option. Once your opponent is conditioned to tech the throw after d4, that's when you blow them up with f2-full combo. I try to only use b2 in combos, or a long range AA, if for whatever reason your opponent is jumping in from around 3/4-full screen.

As far as vortex is concerned, you can go for either the standing reset by ending with a teleport, or a hard knockdown with b32f2. It's kind of up to personal preference/matchup dependent as to which is preferred, but here are what i think are the best follow up options for each:

Combo ending in Teleport:
-Throw/1, throw- simple, effective
- b32f2/b32xxtakedown- builds good meter, does chip damage, gives you a mixup opportunity but not safe
-b121- builds meter, chip damage, safe on block
-f2- use once they're conditioned to tech throws
I dont recommend doing f4/b3xxspear as a 50/50, its super unsafe and should only be used in desperate situations, or if you're feeling that your opponent isn't respecting the overhead enough

Combo ending in hard knockdown
-f2- blows up armored wakeups, safe on block at max range
-throw - use once they realize they have to block and respect f2
-b121 and b32f3 also work for the reasons stated above, however, these can be armored through

Rambled a bit, but hope that helps.
 

JTB123

>>R2 - BF4 = Unblockable.
Best advice I can give is study every other character and figure out what they want to do in the neutral. Once you know that you will understand what Scorpion has to combat it.

He has an extremely difficult neutral game, even when in Ninjutsu you have to be careful and must understand your opponents game plan. This is largely due to Ninjutsu not having anything to really "do" when you're fighting for space. Your game revolves around staying in two very specific sweet spots at all times which are the max ranges of your F2 and B2. Once your opponent shows respect for this space, then you can attempt offense, but again you must be careful. B2 and F2 are death on whiff so only use them at range if you're sure they're either going to hit or be blocked and even then you must take into consideration that when they are blocked your turn is over and you will be back to fighting for that space again.

Be careful of walking back to much in this variation, sooner or later you will end up in the corner which is exactly where you don't want to be as Scorpion.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
So I recently picked up ninjitsu and I'm still learning but I'm struggling in the neutral.
I try to stay in the f2/b2 range and after reading through the forums starting use throws a lot more.
I feel like I'm missing something and came to ask for some tips? Thanks in advance
Its more how to start my offense and also the jump ins since I'm new to character I haven't figured out his best AA. Ive had some luck with b2 if I'm spaced right. Should I contest the jump ins with his jik since its so strong?
Okay, I'm back. I'm not terribly good at instructing players on their approaches to gameplay, but I will do my damndest. Be warned: this post will be a novel.

You have the right idea keeping your opponent within the range of your F2 and B2 attacks, which is where Scorpion thrives, so good stuff there. After you've hit your opponent with either option a good amount of times, they will eventually block if they are back within your attack range. That's where you will really start to shine, because then they will be unprepared for you to run up and throw, or apply pressure to gain a chunk of meter.

Speaking of pressure, you should consider cancelling Scorpion's blockstring with a teleport to put yourself at full-screen again, as sort of a hit-and-run approach. This may require full stamina to perform, but you will quickly get it back as opposed to the cooldown period you suffer from Breakers, and usually the opponent will not be able to punish you. The blockstring I typically use with this tactic is 2 1 4, but I am considering trying it with b1 2 as well (you cannot cancel into specials if you perform the full b1 2 1 string).

Practice timing your F2 as a meaty against their wake-ups, because it's a two-hitting move that hits so fast it will beat any wake-up in the game, including armor and backdashes. X-rays are an obvious exception to this rule, and there may be others I am not aware of, but trust me when I say this is quite effective. Just make sure you space yourself at the max distance of F2's range before attempting the meaty, because if you throw it out right in their face and they block it, they can punish you. This applies to B2 as well.

As far as anti-airing, whether it be against cross-ups or jump-ins, Scorpion's D2 is quite good. I would not recommend using his B2 against those jumping in at a close range, because it's a 17-frame move that will move Scorpion forward a considerable distance before the attack actually comes out, and so this can be stuffed. But if they are jumping from midscreen or even three-quarters of the screen? They just gave you a 35% meterless combo leading into a vortex for free. :)

@The_Tile's suggestion to use jump-3 (the jumpkick) as an anti-air is spot on, especially since it leads to high meterless damage if the opponent is anti-aired by it. It's a six-frame move with a ridiculous amount of active frames, which is why it's so effective. Do not whiff it, or you will be prone to recovery frames from landing on the ground. During this period, you can be punished. We refer to this scenario as a trip guard.

If you're not confident in using your normals to challenge jump-ins, you can try running under the opponent and using your fastest hitting attack string as they are coming down - in Scorpion's case, 1 1 4. Jump attacks on cross-up don't auto-correct quickly in this game, so they will whiff and you can get your damage.

If you're getting pressured, you can use EX Takedown to armor out, but don't get overzealous with this because it's quite unsafe on whiff or block. It does a good chunk of damage, but doesn't grant you an excellent amount of hit advantage so you're pretty much back to neutral. Don't press the offense if you land the takedown, just block or backdash and take your time.

You can also use his D1 as it's one of the better D1s in the game, or go for a backdash which covers a good amount of space.

A side-note to the last few paragraphs: your 1 1 4 string leaves you at a measly -1 on block. Since you have a 6-frame D1, -1 means it will come out at 7 frames, so it makes for a great tool to check your opponent if they try to take their turn with the offense...as long as you don't try this on characters like Cassie Cage or Kung Lao for obvious reasons.

Scorpion also has a godlike D4, which is safe, has an eight-frame start-up, and has potential to low profile. You better abuse that shit in the neutral. On hit, you have a chance to run up and throw or try for a blockstring.

Your mix-up game will revolve around the use of his low B3 and his throw - I don't like his overhead since it's reactable at 25 frames. However, if you go for the overhead, note that the Ninjutsu variation gives you a follow-up to that move which pushes the opponent back and leaves you at only -7 on block, making this a safe option. I am against the idea of cancelling the overhead into a spear, EX or not, unless you're absolutely confident that it will hit.

Something that I don't think a lot of players are aware of is that F4 into EX Spear is not a true blockstring. I've been poked out of the start-up of my EX Spear. I would save my meter for breakers or armored takedowns, as the majority of your damage will not require meter.

The posts made by @JTB123, @ArmageddonUMK and @Ze Dingo should be noted after you read this post. Their advice is sound.

I doubt I covered everything, but I hope this helps. Any questions, please ask. :)
 
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Hey. I have read that "D1 as it's one of the better D1s in the game".

As i am not familiar in that move, please explain it and the practical usage.
I see that the hit advantage is quite good but I couldn't do any good thing after landing it.

I play with my friend and he relentlessly spam D1 with Kotal and after a landed D1 I can't do anything useful because he keeps doing D1 and pokes me out of it.
My recent counter (only with Ninjustu) was NjP into full combo and it seems he stopped doing it. ;)
Other counter was repeating D1 for a bit then try to find out when he blocks and throw but it seemed quite lame.

I guess against "normally conditioned" player with my advantage I could start blockstring, etc.

Thank you in advance.
 

Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
@Hor_PeT

Condition them with D1 -> throw. Sooner or later, they will try to jump. Destroy them with F2 :p

Empty cross up teleport (DB3 D) catches a lot of people off guard, so pull that out when they least expect it.

Get creative with your offense, because you don't have unreactable 50-50s to work with.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
One of the things i love to do with Ninjutsu, is bait out a powerfull move and tele-cancel on reaction, they get a pile on nothing ahead of them while i'm whiff punishing them from behind, its quite useful indeed.
 
@Hor_PeT

Condition them with D1 -> throw. Sooner or later, they will try to jump. Destroy them with F2 :p

Empty cross up teleport (DB3 D) catches a lot of people off guard, so pull that out when they least expect it.

Get creative with your offense, because you don't have unreactable 50-50s to work with.
My friend keeps spamming D1 while I hit him with D1. When I want to throw he pokes me out of throw (or I just miss throw due to duck move). He doesn't block immediately.
Maybe he starts blocking after second D1.
Or 3rd.

What would you do with that? Not easy to condition even to block. :)

The best I could use was NjP after D1 hit.
I saw his D1 movement (while i was in the air for NjP) and my NjP connected and lead into full combo. I don't know if it is the good counter but was successful at least. He pokes a lot so sometimes it is a poke war.

Have you faced something like that lol?

You did not answer the greatness of D1 but I guess the 6 frame startup and the pretty good advantage let me do throw, jump, etc move after successful D1.

I have a feeling that my situation does not exist in higher level. ;)
 
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Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
Use D1 to check. I use D4 for offensive poke.

The D1 is good because of the quick start up and the nice hitbox it has. If he tries to mash buttons after getting hit by D1, use F2 and make him eat 37%. Make him respect your options. You can also go B32F2. It's iffy to punish and you get some decent chip damage if you don't hit.

Bear in mind that Scorpion's D1 is -9 on block, so if Kotal blocks your D1, you will eat his D1 or D4.

But then, you have a 7f D3 that is -1 on block. in certain situations, it's much better than D1.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
My friend keeps spamming D1 while I hit him with D1. When I want to throw he pokes me out of throw (or I just miss throw due to duck move). He doesn't block immediately.
Maybe he starts blocking after second D1.
Or 3rd.

What would you do with that? Not easy to condition even to block. :)

The best I could use was NjP after D1 hit.
I saw his D1 movement (while i was in the air for NjP) and my NjP connected and lead into full combo. I don't know if it is the good counter but was successful at least. He pokes a lot so sometimes it is a poke war.

Have you faced something like that lol?

You did not answer the greatness of D1 but I guess the 6 frame startup and the pretty good advantage let me do throw, jump, etc move after successful D1.

I have a feeling that my situation does not exist in higher level. ;)
You need t condition him to respect your offensive space.
Ninjutsu is a variation that by definition walks ALOT, like, litterally i can play an entire game just by walking in the neutral, and only running to confirm combos.

So when you're walking in you want to keep them in check with a max ranged D4, you do that mostly when you're in max range of it, then start changing by going in a little further then walk away into your max range, this will create a mind game where either they decided to poke out to avoid the throws or not, if he presses a button while you're max range away from his range, your F2 will whiff punish them.

If they respect, then you go all the way in walking and get your throw.

Its pretty much this, you can also do a D4 when they think you're going to throw when inside throw range, if they press a button, you get into F2 range, if they don't, you're virtually safe, D1 and D3 will become accessible tools for a close combat fighting.

When he start to get frustrated by not being able to hit you inside your range, he will feel the need ot getting out of his comfort zone and will likely charge in with a move you can teleport cancel and get a clean punish.
 
You need t condition him to respect your offensive space.
Ninjutsu is a variation that by definition walks ALOT, like, litterally i can play an entire game just by walking in the neutral, and only running to confirm combos.

So when you're walking in you want to keep them in check with a max ranged D4, you do that mostly when you're in max range of it, then start changing by going in a little further then walk away into your max range, this will create a mind game where either they decided to poke out to avoid the throws or not, if he presses a button while you're max range away from his range, your F2 will whiff punish them.

If they respect, then you go all the way in walking and get your throw.

Its pretty much this, you can also do a D4 when they think you're going to throw when inside throw range, if they press a button, you get into F2 range, if they don't, you're virtually safe, D1 and D3 will become accessible tools for a close combat fighting.

When he start to get frustrated by not being able to hit you inside your range, he will feel the need ot getting out of his comfort zone and will likely charge in with a move you can teleport cancel and get a clean punish.
I got it. I use D4 a lot and he is annoyed very much. But that's my best when he is closing. He plays Kotal and uses half screen long fast strings so positioning is tricky. I easily Block him but difficult to whiff punish it as he is in my face in a moment.

That will be a challenge "dancing" with the partner but that's how I want to play not just going forward and spam the strings. :p It won't be easy, I will practice.
I know the combos sort of but need to practice is to make it consistent. I can't really input the damn spear after 21 because my finger doesn't do what i want. In theory I know the combos perfectly. :p

Thanks for the tip I will play and try to feel Ninjutsu.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I got it. I use D4 a lot and he is annoyed very much. But that's my best when he is closing. He plays Kotal and uses half screen long fast strings so positioning is tricky. I easily Block him but difficult to whiff punish it as he is in my face in a moment.

That will be a challenge "dancing" with the partner but that's how I want to play not just going forward and spam the strings. :p It won't be easy, I will practice.
I know the combos sort of but need to practice is to make it consistent. I can't really input the damn spear after 21 because my finger doesn't do what i want. In theory I know the combos perfectly. :p

Thanks for the tip I will play and try to feel Ninjutsu.
These matches are way old, before the damage, buff, but it was when i started to apply this same principle, hope it helps


If Smith drops by today, i will request a new set to update then i will share, its been a while since i've played Kotal and Scorpion
 
These matches are way old, before the damage, buff, but it was when i started to apply this same principle, hope it helps


If Smith drops by today, i will request a new set to update then i will share, its been a while since i've played Kotal and Scorpion
Thank you for the videos. I was looking for scorpion vs Kotal matches but the search engine on YouTube is strange and I just find few one (not that one).

I played with my friend yesterday (around 30 matches) and tried to apply the Ninjustu mentality :)
He was extremely upset when I pokes out of his strings constantly and when I conditioned him to block and dropped many throws (then F2-B2)

He said I was dirty and disgusting :)
Well, it's a compliment for a Ninjustu I think. What would he say after a top tier character dirty pressure, etc.

I keep learning and feeling Ninjutsu. I see his weaknesses but that doesn't matter.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Thank you for the videos. I was looking for scorpion vs Kotal matches but the search engine on YouTube is strange and I just find few one (not that one).

I played with my friend yesterday (around 30 matches) and tried to apply the Ninjustu mentality :)
He was extremely upset when I pokes out of his strings constantly and when I conditioned him to block and dropped many throws (then F2-B2)

He said I was dirty and disgusting :)
Well, it's a compliment for a Ninjustu I think. What would he say after a top tier character dirty pressure, etc.

I keep learning and feeling Ninjutsu. I see his weaknesses but that doesn't matter.
Yeah, its a very honest variation.
 
Well guys I kept practiced and played with my friend (totem Kotal) and reached the point that he couldn't do anything with me.
All the options you mentioned above is working well with a good mixup. Even without really good overhead mixup (I throw a lot and his mind blows).
Soil am really favored over him right now and I think Ninjutsu is a good counter of Kotal's long arms, moves.

I still have a question about offensive D4 and after teleport advantage:
1.
I read above that after D4 there is a good option to run + throw. My question: what is behind that opportunity? Is the frame advantage good enough that the opponnent can't poke me out? Or just a mind game that he will block after D4 anyway? (Like D1 >> throw?)

2. How much is the after teleport net hit advantage? How can I understand the hit advantage after teleport?
Doing the math right how many frames advantage I really have after the teleport? I read frame data threads but tbh it's not quite clear to me now.
I ask it because I want to know if the opponnent always can block if he wants (even D1) or how much he can poke me out of my varuous strings (114, 214, B121, etc).

My friend tried to punch me up with the Kotal move but I could hit him with my 1-1-4 and punish him with a full combo (nice reset lol).
If I know the real advantage I can decide what to do against him (besides b3, throw, S4).

What is the frame startup for throw ? :) I heard 1 but it is still hard to believe...

I apologise if the questions are noob.
All the guides and advices are working just I want to be creative if it is possible. :)
 
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As I tested the after teleport scenario my fastest 6F D1 is blocked by AI after teleport. So I do not really understand why +18 hit advantage is so huge thing.
I experience that it is very good just do not know the logic behind the numbers. :) Maybe it doesnt really matter I am just curious (after learning on this I can analyse other characters/moves).
 

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
As I tested the after teleport scenario my fastest 6F D1 is blocked by AI after teleport. So I do not really understand why +18 hit advantage is so huge thing.
I experience that it is very good just do not know the logic behind the numbers. :) Maybe it doesnt really matter I am just curious (after learning on this I can analyse other characters/moves).
First off @Eddy Wang will be able to answer this a lot better then I could but I'll try.

The opponent can still block after teleport it just leaves you at +18 meaning if they try to hit any buttons and you throw out a move faster then 18 frames you will beat them out.

So say you are +3 and you throw out your 6frame d1 its like your throwing out a 3 frame d1.

I'm definitely not an expert on this I just started getting the hang of frame data when mkx came out so like I said earlier others will know better and if I'm wrong plz correct me and tell me why because I definitely need to learn it a little better :)
 

Matix218

Get over here!
As I tested the after teleport scenario my fastest 6F D1 is blocked by AI after teleport. So I do not really understand why +18 hit advantage is so huge thing.
I experience that it is very good just do not know the logic behind the numbers. :) Maybe it doesnt really matter I am just curious (after learning on this I can analyse other characters/moves).
The hitstun after a hit teleport means that your opponent can block your follow up but the string that you follow up with after hitting the teleport "jails" so they are forced to block it and cannot interrupt it with anything of their own.

Also the reason why run up and throw often works after you hit a d4 is because your opponent will have a tendency to block after getting hit by d4 since it gives you frames. They will likely fear more damaging options like f2 (ninjutsu) so they will resort to holding block as a muscle memory reaction to seeing they have been hit by a d4 and will likely not be able to react to a run in throw because you have conditioned them to block your f2 which poses larger threat due to the full combo into reset that a hit f2 gives you
 
Thx guys for the quick response. I have read the thread you mentioned but I did not find out what HIT advantage (or hit stun) means.
But this sentence made it very clear to me (and I hope it is right):

"The opponent can still block after teleport it just leaves you at +18 meaning if they try to hit any buttons and you throw out a move faster then 18 frames you will beat them out. "
And this:

"The hitstun after a hit teleport means that your opponent can block your follow up but the string that you follow up with after hitting the teleport "jails" so they are forced to block it and cannot interrupt it with anything of their own. "

D4 is +18 too so I can understand why it is not a good idea to try to hit back.

I was just crushed by a Quanchi player online. Damn I would not say that Quanchi is an honest character lol.
But I keep playing with Ninjitsu and accept that there are not many favored matchups especially on line where "everybody" plays with top tier characters with safe/fast/big damage combo 50/50. :) But at least there is challenge.
 
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