Question Reset loop and frame trap.

[Durango]

I still see Sub-Zero players using the EX Ground Freeze loop. Since the latest patch a few months ago, what's the new setup and timing?

Also, looking for Sub-Zero resets and blockstrings. I see Kabal, Quan Chi, Scorpion, Cage, and Mileena players doing this too. I'm willing to bet Sub-Zero has one, and I see some players starting it with B1, 2, 1.

 

[NKZero]

I still see Sub-Zero players using the EX Ground Freeze loop. Since the latest patch a few months ago, what's the new setup and timing?

Also, looking for Sub-Zero resets and blockstrings. I see Kabal, Quan Chi, Scorpion, Cage, and Mileena players doing this too. I'm willing to bet Sub-Zero has one, and I see some players starting it with B1, 2, 1.

That EX ground freeze loop has been patched. It is easily escapable now so if people are still using it then their opponents are clearly unaware of the fact that they can evade it.

Anyways the reset you are talking about is ending a combo in B121 with Sub Zero. In order for it to work the opponent must be frozen in a standing position i.e. they cannot be in the air. You can do it off 22/F4/B12 freeze or if the opponent walks into a clone for example. Once they are frozen, do B121 and you have frame advantage to continue pressure or whatever.

The B121 basically resets the opponent standing and since they are in a stunned state you make the next move.

 

[WayoftheFist]

People tend to respect Sub's pressure and block after the b121 so oftentimes you can catch people with a throw right there. Knowing all of your options and when to use them off of B121 is crucial to play Sub Zero at a high level. It's also important to know when to even use b121. Just remember that if you want to win with Sub Zero the corner is everything to you so if you need that wall carry go ahead and end with jip/crossover punch(depends on proximity to the corners)214 slide after a grouded freeze. IMO b121 is best used when you have your opponent more than halfway to the corner, and even better if they are almost in it, because you can get the 212 clone for free off of an opponent with no meter.

 

[NKZero]

People tend to respect Sub's pressure and block after the b121 so oftentimes you can catch people with a throw right there. Knowing all of your options and when to use them off of B121 is crucial to play Sub Zero at a high level. It's also important to know when to even use b121. Just remember that if you want to win with Sub Zero the corner is everything to you so if you need that wall carry go ahead and end with jip/crossover punch(depends on proximity to the corners)214 slide after a grouded freeze. IMO b121 is best used when you have your opponent more than halfway to the corner, and even better if they are almost in it, because you can get the 212 clone for free off of an opponent with no meter.

THIS!!!!! 214 nets more damage and wall carries much better. Plus slide gives untechable knockdown so unless the character has a safe wake-up you don't have much to worry about. The aim with Sub is ALWAYS to get your opponent cornered then B121 becomes most effective as you pointed out.

 

[WayoftheFist]

THIS!!!!! 214 nets more damage and wall carries much better. Plus slide gives untechable knockdown so unless the character has a safe wake-up you don't have much to worry about. The aim with Sub is ALWAYS to get your opponent cornered then B121 becomes most effective as you pointed out.

The other thing that should be noted is that there are certain charcaters you should favor B121 against simply because you can't afford to let them get away from you much at all. Kabal, Kenshi, Kitana, and Freddy come to mind.

 

[ryublaze]

After freezing an opponent on the ground you can do his NJP BnB (B1, 2, Ice Ball, NJP, dash, 1, dash, B1, 2, 2, 1, 2, Slide). If you're too far away to do this then yeah do jip, 2, 1, 4 Slide or jip, B1, 2, 1. Sub can get a reset after B1, 2, 1, if your opponent is crouching and you do F4, Ice Ball but it's really risky.

 

[NKZero]

The other thing that should be noted is that there are certain charcaters you should favor B121 against simply because you can't afford to let them get away from you much at all. Kabal, Kenshi, Kitana, and Freddy come to mind.

Yeah and perhaps Kitana more than any of those because she has the easiest corner escape. All you want is the life lead I guess. I dunno I don't really do character specific tbh. The only advantage of 12B1 is disabling wake-ups so it would be effective against Kabal who has ridiculous and safe wake-up options. I just go 214-slide anyways but you make a good point.

 

[NKZero]

After freezing an opponent on the ground you can do his NJP BnB (B1, 2, Ice Ball, NJP, dash, 1, dash, B1, 2, 2, 1, 2, Slide). If you're too far away to do this then yeah do jip, 2, 1, 4 Slide or jip, B1, 2, 1. Sub can get a reset after B1, 2, 1, if your opponent is crouching and you do F4, Ice Ball but it's really risky.

Can I ask what is the difference in damage between 22-freeze-NJP-1-B12-212-slide and 22-freeze-JIP-214 slide? Also which corner carries further?

Sorry it's just I can't do it atm with no console...

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

the grounded b1,2,1 has as much wall carry as any of his other bnb's.
With a throw it is probably a tad further.

There is almost NO reason to use the other stuff if you hit a ground freeze. You get the SAME damage *chip is guaranteed* and a throw mixup.

There are a handful of characters where the untouchable knockdown is preferred... like Kitana or Jade... simple because you can "bait" wakeup attacks and punish them.

ninjaedit: Sub Zero has ZERO ... ZERO .... frame traps.

 

[ryublaze]

Can I ask what is the difference in damage between 22-freeze-NJP-1-B12-212-slide and 22-freeze-JIP-214 slide? Also which corner carries further?

Sorry it's just I can't do it atm with no console...

2% more damage

 

[SunnyD]

2% more damage

and the ability to pick which side to slide the opponent in.

 

[NKZero]

and the ability to pick which side to slide the opponent in.

oh wait I'm guessing you're talking about 214 slide ender doing more damage and choosing sides? also d'you know which has a farther corner carry?

 

[ryublaze]

and the ability to pick which side to slide the opponent in.

What do you mean? You can switch sides with the NJP combo too by crossing over after a freeze and NJP.

 

[WayoftheFist]

the grounded b1,2,1 has as much wall carry as any of his other bnb's.
With a throw it is probably a tad further.

There is almost NO reason to use the other stuff if you hit a ground freeze. You get the SAME damage *chip is guaranteed* and a throw mixup.

There are a handful of characters where the untouchable knockdown is preferred... like Kitana or Jade... simple because you can "bait" wakeup attacks and punish them.

ninjaedit: Sub Zero has ZERO ... ZERO .... frame traps.

The 214 slide has more wall carry than b121 although with the throw ender it's almost the same. Just tested it to be sure.

 

[SunnyD]

What do you mean? You can switch sides with the NJP combo too by crossing over after a freeze and NJP.

Its alot harder to time, i find. crossover 214 slide is usually what i go for if i want to switch sides, otherwise, i just do the NJP combo.

 

[ryublaze]

I can assure you that his NJP BnB gives more pushback than B1, 2, 1 even with the blockstring or throw afterwards. What I do is pick the stage Shang Tsung's arena then walk back and jip, B1, 2, freeze etc. The NJP BnB gets the opponent close to the shadow of the building on the right. Also make sure you're dashing in between each string like NJP, dash, 1, dash, B1, 2, dash, 2, 1, 2, Slide.

The combo that pushes the opponent farthest is:
jip, B1, 2, Ice Ball, NJP, dash, 1, dash, 1, dash, 1, dash, 2, 1, 4, Slide
This combo pushes the opponent past the shadow of the building but it is a bit more difficult to do. It does 2% less damage than the NJP BnB (36%).

The 2nd farthest combo is:
jip, B1, 2, Ice Ball, NJP, dash, 1, dash, 1, dash, B1, 2, 2, 1, 2, Slide
This pushes the opponent near the edge of the shadow. It does the same damage as the NJP BnB (38%).

But CharlieMurphy is right. You should almost always go for his B1, 2, 1, string on a grounded opponent.

 

[Durango]

About the corner game, here's a dilemma. You get someone in a corner and slide combo them. But you can't place an Ice Clone the moment you finish the slide, and if you backdash into the clone, you're asking to be punished, rendering it ineffective.

How do you keep your corner game going, with an ice clone, while doing combos that end in slide?

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

After freezing an opponent on the ground you can do his NJP BnB (B1, 2, Ice Ball, NJP, dash, 1, dash, B1, 2, 2, 1, 2, Slide). If you're too far away to do this then yeah do jip, 2, 1, 4 Slide or jip, B1, 2, 1. Sub can get a reset after B1, 2, 1, if your opponent is crouching and you do F4, Ice Ball but it's really risky.

You can do F4 clone if you think they are gonna block, but it's a guess/read.

Also, I prefer B121 anywhere and everywhere over 214 slide. With B121 you will get chip damage and meter build, a possible reset, or a throw. So IMO it's better.

 

[Temjiin]

You can do F4 clone if you think they are gonna block, but it's a guess/read.

Also, I prefer B121 anywhere and everywhere over 214 slide. With B121 you will get chip damage and meter build, a possible reset, or a throw. So IMO it's better.

It's worth noting that the reset should be used sparingly on any character with armour.

As a sub player, I'd personally take the bnb myself, guaranteed damage. But I'm not a Sub player

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

It's worth noting that the reset should be used sparingly on any character with armour.

As a sub player, I'd personally take the bnb myself, guaranteed damage. But I'm not a Sub player

Not worth it. You get 32% off the BnB + wall carry + untechable knockdown. You get 29% I believe of the B121 + chip + meter or possible F4 reset for another 29%-32% or a throw to make the overall damage 41%.

You give up 3 % damage for more setups/mixups/meter ... IMO it's better. *shrug*

 

[BenGmanUk]

About the corner game, here's a dilemma. You get someone in a corner and slide combo them. But you can't place an Ice Clone the moment you finish the slide, and if you backdash into the clone, you're asking to be punished, rendering it ineffective.

How do you keep your corner game going, with an ice clone, while doing combos that end in slide?

Don't end in slide so you have time to setup the clone. You should be ending with b121 anyway, especially in the corner.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Don't end in slide so you have time to setup the clone. You should be ending with b121 anyway, especially in the corner.

No, you should end corner combos in 222 instead of slide. Gives you a free clone.

Something like this...

JIP B121, 212 clone. Then if you land a combo, end in 222 clone.

 

[Skitzo]

You end all combos with f4 ndc (reset) then go for the frame trap 2ndc 2 ndc 2nd--...wait, this isn't the Kabal forum.

 

[Temjiin]

Not worth it. You get 32% off the BnB + wall carry + untechable knockdown. You get 29% I believe of the B121 + chip + meter or possible F4 reset for another 29%-32% or a throw to make the overall damage 41%.

You give up 3 % damage for more setups/mixups/meter ... IMO it's better. *shrug*

Fair, but after you b121 me, I'm armouring out of any follow up

 

[NKZero]

Fair, but after you b121 me, I'm armouring out of any follow up

you make me hate the guy that was once my favourite character. You'd be NOTHING without EX slide. It would be same old derptile running into clones like the old days .