REAL Mortal Kombat Tier List Project

[A F0xy Grampa]

I really think the default stage for tournaments should be The Courtyard. (DAY)

Too true, tis my favourite stage too

 

[REO]

To the players who think player advantage and stages don't mean anything then watch this video and maybe you'll understand better.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Too true, tis my favourite stage too

Agreed. Maybe not aesthetically, but in a meaningful fight, I always feel more comfy there.

1: Courtyard, Day, 2: Pit, Night, 3: Dead Pool, 4: Kahn's Throne Room, 5: Living Forest.

 

[DownfouralitY]

Good shit, REO. I'm all for it.

 

[M2Dave]

This project sucks. We should finish the one THTB started.

 

[KingHippo]

This is the silliest shit. Games of a much better nature ala ST and 3rd Strike, whilst having stages of various sizes, never had matches narrow down to stage size, even though there is a noticeable difference. Does Honda being able to reach the corner faster on a back charge on Vega's stage, even though Bison is considered a strong corner pressure character, not mean he destroys Bison 8-2? Does Guile having much more space to run on Blanka's stage mean that he doesn't get beat by Vega? No...it just means the inevitable is delayed slightly longer.

To keep it MK, I will say that I believe Kenshi-Kabal is 5-5, but I do not believe that doing it on a smaller stage means it is Kenshi's favor. Kabal has impressive options on his wake-up and midscreen, but I get to take a good chunk of those away in the corner, which to me is what swings the match to 5-5 anyways...however, even when I corner you, it's still 5-5 and reaching that any faster won't change that. It won't change it for anyone lol.

Why does MK have to be the special and unique snowflake when it comes to matchups?

 

[Zoidberg747]

I think most of us accept the fact that there are other variables other than skill that affect character matchups. But i dont think tier lists should encompass very possible scenario. They should be broad and general.

For example, on a general basis, Jax beats Kabal by some margin. Following this evidence, we list it as a 6-4 matchup. A Jax player can best a Kabal player with less effort required. By bringing up stage levels, what player they are (P1 or P2), the controller they are using, and etc. we are becoming way too specific. We no longer are sure as to whether or not Jax is a good counter pick to Kabal, now we are worried about the stage selection and stage lighing and etc. We should be focusing on "Jax beats Kabal". Because that one fact alone is what matters to people, not all these other possible scenarios.


I feel as if the real matchup data will be lost in a sea of meaningless exceptions and random occurrances.

This, all of these factors are kind of pointless to consider except maybe the stages. Jax beats Kabal, that much we know. We dont need to know how all the stages affect it as well.

 

[NogunYesknife]

This project sucks. We should finish the one THTB started.

lmao thats the funniest thing you've ever said. I don't know why, but i laughed hysterically. but you speak the truth.

 

[REO]

This project sucks. We should finish the one THTB started.

So go finish it already. Looking forward for the rest of the 5-5s and 6-4s to be filled in.

This is the silliest shit. Games of a much better nature ala ST and 3rd Strike, whilst having stages of various sizes, never had matches narrow down to stage size, even though there is a noticeable difference. Does Honda being able to reach the corner faster on a back charge on Vega's stage, even though Bison is considered a strong corner pressure character, not mean he destroys Bison 8-2? Does Guile having much more space to run on Blanka's stage mean that he doesn't get beat by Vega? No...it just means the inevitable is delayed slightly longer.

To keep it MK, I will say that I believe Kenshi-Kabal is 5-5, but I do not believe that doing it on a smaller stage means it is Kenshi's favor. Kabal has impressive options on his wake-up and midscreen, but I get to take a good chunk of those away in the corner, which to me is what swings the match to 5-5 anyways...however, even when I corner you, it's still 5-5 and reaching that any faster won't change that. It won't change it for anyone lol.

Why does MK have to be the special and unique snowflake when it comes to matchups?

Who cares what SF does, this is Mortal Kombat.

 

[Zoidberg747]

So go finish it already. Looking forward for the rest of the 5-5s and 6-4s to be filled in.



Who cares what SF does, this is Mortal Kombat.

It is the same concept. At the very least just do one with stages involved, the p1 advantage and hitbox thing is ridiculous imo.

 

[REO]

It is the same concept. At the very least just do one with stages involved, the p1 advantage and hitbox thing is ridiculous imo.

The hitbox part was a joke.

And I agree about the P1 advantage being ridiculous. Puttana on P1 can check you for free afterwards with cutter but on P2 she gets raped by Cage cause she has to respect him 24/7.

 

[Zoidberg747]

The hitbox part was a joke.

And I agree about the P1 advantage being ridiculous. Puttana on P1 can check you for free afterwards with cutter but on P2 she gets raped by Cage cause she has to respect him 24/7.

My bad then.

 

[NYCj360]

For those of you who think stage size doesn't matter. I would love to see you play against a high level cage,jax,Shang,sub,ermac, or Sonya in tournament and choose the pit since it makes no difference. the faster these characters back you into the wall the better. If it only takes one combo or a few block strings to get you to the corner where these characters excel, then the difference becomes apparent.

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2

 

[xSMoKEx]

Stage does matter but only on certain match-ups. Example:

JC/Sonya vs Smoke or Freddy on Rooftop (Day) may be 6-4 Smoke. Put it on Pit and all of a sudsen you have much less room to run from a character, and these characters are twice as deadly in the corner. The MU becomes 5-5.

Saying that the stage size only prolongs death is completely false. You never know what can happen, what if that little bit of extra running room gives you the time you need to hit them with a projectile? Does it not give the zoner more opportunities to land a projectile? Yes.

The rushdown characters will like the smaller stages because they do much more damage in the corner. You have Cage who does like 35% mid-screen, throw him in the corner all of a sudden he's doing 46%.

stuff like that always comes into play, you cannot deny that...

 

[Enenra]

Stage does matter but only on certain match-ups. Example:

JC/Sonya vs Smoke or Freddy on Rooftop (Day) may be 6-4 Smoke. Put it on Pit and all of a sudsen you have much less room to run from a character, and these characters are twice as deadly in the corner. The MU becomes 5-5.

Saying that the stage size only prolongs death is completely false. You never know what can happen, what if that little bit of extra running room gives you the time you need to hit them with a projectile? Does it not give the zoner more opportunities to land a projectile? Yes.

The rushdown characters will like the smaller stages because they do much more damage in the corner. You have Cage who does like 35% mid-screen, throw him in the corner all of a sudden he's doing 46%.

stuff like that always comes into play, you cannot deny that...

Everything that comes out of your mouth is pure, unadulterated, smokey goodness.

I doth tip my hat to you sir, have a fine day and go in peace.

 

[SaranathUK]

Goes to show that I know bugger all. Stage advantage? I wondered why I was asked today at casuals when I chose dead pools "Isn't dead pools small?" I just replied "It's my favourite stage" lol. I thought they were for aesthetics and stage fatalities. *Takes notes*

 

[Hitoshura]

Ok I'm gonna say this one and only once. Until we can get all the Mu #'s from the people who were selected as the character representative and until we can all come to an agreement that .5's are necessary in an MU chart then and only THEN will we have a true tier list. Until THIS is done then there is no point in make tier list threads and such.​

​

I'm sick of seeing them and adding stage and player 1 advantage to a tier list is BEYOND retarded!​

​

Here is what needs to be done and I can't believe I'm actually saying this but seeing how stage sizes in this game vary depending on what stage you pick then we need to band the small and long stages in order to keep this game balanced. Not only can you counter pick someone with a character but now you can pick a stage where you have further advantage against your opponent. So the only tournament viable stages are gonna be the ones that are normal sized stages.​

​

The other thing is we need to agree on this whole .5 thing. How is it possible? you ever heard of 55% This has been done in A LOT of fighters. I don't wanna hear that doesn't make sense b/c so far the people who are saying the .5 system is stupid are the same people who have never played a fighter outside of mk9.​

​

When we can agree on that then we can actually go somewhere with this community MU chart bc right now nothing has been done b/c people have been arguing with one another over how the MU chart should be done.​

 

[miloPKL]

lmao @ this thread

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Annnnd... here we go again...

seriously, people are still finding out things about characters. There won't be a real matchup chart for a long time.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Ok I'm gonna say this one and only once. Until we can get all the Mu #'s from the people who were selected as the character representative and until we can all come to an agreement that .5's are necessary in an MU chart then and only THEN will we have a true tier list. Until THIS is done then there is no point in make tier list threads and such.​

​

I'm sick of seeing them and adding stage and player 1 advantage to a tier list is BEYOND retarded!​

​

Here is what needs to be done and I can't believe I'm actually saying this but seeing how stage sizes in this game vary depending on what stage you pick then we need to band the small and long stages in order to keep this game balanced. Not only can you counter pick someone with a character but now you can pick a stage where you have further advantage against your opponent. So the only tournament viable stages are gonna be the ones that are normal sized stages.​

​

The other thing is we need to agree on this whole .5 thing. How is it possible? you ever heard of 55% This has been done in A LOT of fighters. I don't wanna hear that doesn't make sense b/c so far the people who are saying the .5 system is stupid are the same people who have never played a fighter outside of mk9.​

​

When we can agree on that then we can actually go somewhere with this community MU chart bc right now nothing has been done b/c people have been arguing with one another over how the mu chart should be done.​

​

​

​

This is very true. A huge problem has been the refusal for some to use .5s, which throws the entire thing off :/

 

[Tolkeen]

Ok I'm gonna say this one and only once. Until we can get all the Mu #'s from the people who were selected as the character representative and until we can all come to an agreement that .5's are necessary in an MU chart then and only THEN will we have a true tier list. Until THIS is done then there is no point in make tier list threads and such.​

​

I'm sick of seeing them and adding stage and player 1 advantage to a tier list is BEYOND retarded!​

​

Here is what needs to be done and I can't believe I'm actually saying this but seeing how stage sizes in this game vary depending on what stage you pick then we need to band the small and long stages in order to keep this game balanced. Not only can you counter pick someone with a character but now you can pick a stage where you have further advantage against your opponent. So the only tournament viable stages are gonna be the ones that are normal sized stages.​

​

The other thing is we need to agree on this whole .5 thing. How is it possible? you ever heard of 55% This has been done in A LOT of fighters. I don't wanna hear that doesn't make sense b/c so far the people who are saying the .5 system is stupid are the same people who have never played a fighter outside of mk9.​

​

When we can agree on that then we can actually go somewhere with this community MU chart bc right now nothing has been done b/c people have been arguing with one another over how the MU chart should be done.​

Or instead of banning the odd stages, let p2 pick the stage since p1 gets the trade advantage.


Tapatalk, helping me procrastinate.

 

[Hitoshura]

Or instead of banning the odd stages, let p2 pick the stage since p1 gets the trade advantage.

But then the opponent gets to pick a stage that favors his character.

 

[THTB]

Give them the choice of new character selection, or new stage. If you pick a new character, you must remain on the same stage in the previous game.

Badabing, badaboom.

 

[Espio]

As was mentioned earlier, to solve this "stage advantage" fiasco, pick a medium sized staged so that zoners and rushdown characters have an equal chance if stage selection is that big of a deal.

As for there being a bunch of 6-4's and 5-5's, most of the cast really doesn't get hit hard by bad matches, except characters like Sheeva and possibly Baraka and Jade. It's not like Sektor, Sonya, Cage, Kabal, Freddy, Shang Tsung, Liu Kang, Kenshi, Cyrax etc. have a ton of of bad match ups in the 3-7 range, they might have a coupel 4-6's and such, but 3-7's really don't seem that common from what I gather from personal experience and listening to the various members of the community. Most of the cast has ridiculous dirt to compete with the other characters' ridiculous dirt.

The lower tiered characters like Stryker, Baraka, etc. aren't even "bad", they're decent, but simply put they're lacking the dirt of the higher up characters.

 

[Bildslash]

But then the opponent gets to pick a stage that favors his character.

But in a way the P1 side thing would even things out, wouldn't it?

I personally think is ridiculous the game (to which I'm hooked) has all this non-character related advantage crap that was effectively unknown to the community at large until a week ago. However, since a new patch doesn't seem to be a real possibility (not considering P1 Advantage might be as unfixable as the input bug), P1 Advantage is a huge thing and stages certainly have an impact on MU results, what Tolkeen proposes isn't a bad idea.

Sure, doing a coin toss or a rock-paper-scissor before each match and giving the loser a change to switch to/stay on P1 side is also a good arrangement. Nevertheless, folks would still have a valid reason to complain because in the end a player always ends up shafted. Giving P2 some kind of advantage to even out P1 Advantage is the fairest arrangement; though Stage Advantage is useless if both players use rushdown characters.

What worries me about these new discoveries is how the game will be seen by the FGC as a whole after EVO. Because it is a damn certainty these issues will be widely known by then. All the good things MK9 has as a competitive fighting game can be easily overshadowed by the P1 Advantage. The Capcom community haven't really acknowledged the MK community, they are looking for any pretext to keep ostracizing this community; P1 Advantage is exactly what they were looking for.