Match-up Discussion Putting the Cage vs Smoke Match-Up to Rest.

[NKZero]

It's 6-3 AT LEAST in cage's favour. Smoke can't zone, he can run. The only thing he can do to keep cage out is b2 and d4.

Shit no wonder match-up charts are wrong this whole time. It should be out of 9, not 10 :tonyt.

Haha just kidding man, I'm assuming you meant 6-4?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Why not? There are certainly matchups that are affected by it. Would you say that Jax vs. Kabal is exactly the same on rooftop day as it is on The Pit? Just spitballing here.

A good Cage player will let an opponent use p1 advantage to kill themselves, if he blocks a d1 he gets a free F3. Same goes for lots of characters.

The only thing stage sizes should really matter for is Kabal, because all Kabal players wanna do is fireball which pushes themselves to the corner, where obviously they cant do that so much. Also SZ.

But for those characters that dont spam fireballs they are expected to play a good footsie game, if you have good footies you should be able to avoid corners for longer.

 

[Swifteh94]

Shit no wonder match-up charts are wrong this whole time. It should be out of 9, not 10 :tonyt.

Haha just kidding man, I'm assuming you meant 6-4?

Yes >_>... Edited now.

 

[M2Dave]

Here is my contribution to this worthwhile discussion.

 

[Zwooosh]

Actually after playing this match again and thinking about it i'd have to say at least 6-4 cage. It's too easy for him to get a life lead and wait for smoke to have to come at him which is death for smoke.

 

[RTM2004]

LMAO!

What is it about Smoke getting Nut Punched by Cage, let alone Sindel kicked his nuts before she killed him in Story Mode?

XD

 

[SZSR]

Actually after playing this match again and thinking about it i'd have to say at least 6-4 cage. It's too easy for him to get a life lead and wait for smoke to have to come at him which is death for smoke.

This.

Smoke is an ordinarily reactionary character, punishing the opponent for making movements etc. Johnny Cage is an aggressor, and as soon as JC has a life lead, Smoke has to come in and make an offensive. It doesn't spell certain death for Smoke but his offensive tools are very limited compared to someone like Cage.

 

[swag1]

i used to play smoke and i had played playpal numerous times (offline & online), and such is my input:

matchup: 5.5-4.5 cage. i think if cage has p1 adv. it's 6-4 though

smokes lack of armor is killer. EX shake is better than armor in most MU's, but it gets molested by d3's, not to mention that you have a small window input it. EX drift has vulnerability frames. if you are too close and try to drift out, he can shadow kick you

stage advantage is meh, honestly, because ultimately meter helps, but he doesn't do any damage on projectiles and outside of the reset smoke really has very little use for meter (excluding EX shake, however was addressed before)

p1 adv. is good but ultimately all you get is a d1~SB after a 3d12

smokes best tool: using EX shake after a frame trap

cage's best tool: f3, what'd you think?

smoke has to play defensively, but smokes projectile throwing game is weak as hell.

NOTE: would be 6-4 for cage if he couldnt EX shake outta frame traps, so

subzerosmokerai agreed when cage gets the life lead you may as well put down the controller and lick your own butthole

 

[Zwooosh]

This.

Smoke is an ordinarily reactionary character, punishing the opponent for making movements etc. Johnny Cage is an aggressor, and as soon as JC has a life lead, Smoke has to come in and make an offensive. It doesn't spell certain death for Smoke but his offensive tools are very limited compared to someone like Cage.

Against a cage who knows what they're doing it's death because no way is smoke coming out of it with a life lead over cage.

 

[CURBOLICOUS]

This is good but imo Cage wins 6-4. Please tell me what can smoke do if cage just sits back all day. He does no chip but he does build meter. The cage player doesnt have to commit. Kinda like the Kitana/sub zero MU cage can get the first hit off and run away. Idk if its just me knowing how to fight smoke really well but I never really lose to any smokes. He seems soooo limited and it feels like his back is always up against the wall. Sure you have reset/breakers/parry but whats all that worth if Cage doesn't need to get near you. Theres no way smoke is coming in trying to rushdown Cage. This MU is based on how impatient the Cage player is and how many mistakes he makes. Matter of fact thats how it goes for every MU.

 

[Peckapowa]

i used to play smoke and i had played playpal numerous times (offline & online), and such is my input:

matchup: 5.5-4.5 cage. i think if cage has p1 adv. it's 6-4 though

smokes lack of armor is killer. EX shake is better than armor in most MU's, but it gets molested by d3's, not to mention that you have a small window input it. EX drift has vulnerability frames. if you are too close and try to drift out, he can shadow kick you

stage advantage is meh, honestly, because ultimately meter helps, but he doesn't do any damage on projectiles and outside of the reset smoke really has very little use for meter (excluding EX shake, however was addressed before)

p1 adv. is good but ultimately all you get is a d1~SB after a 3d12

smokes best tool: using EX shake after a frame trap

cage's best tool: f3, what'd you think?

smoke has to play defensively, but smokes projectile throwing game is weak as hell.

NOTE: would be 6-4 for cage if he couldnt EX shake outta frame traps, so

subzerosmokerai agreed when cage gets the life lead you may as well put down the controller and lick your own butthole

ex shake is no biggy, does 9% damage and is very readable, thought its real merit getting smoke out, but its not a game changer

 

[swag1]

ex shake is no biggy, does 9% damage and is very readable, thought its real merit getting smoke out, but its not a game changer

yeah but it can make cage think twice about f3, instead going for the d3, which is like -7 or whatever so you can poke back. its more of a psychological thing

 

[Peckapowa]

true

 

[TotteryManx]

I'm no Cage expert, but I agree with what others say. What's the point in Cage even bothering? lol. As soon as he gets a life lead he can turtle his way to victory. What is Smoke gonna do? smoke towards and attempt to grab or d4? LOL.

 

[smokey]

Zwooosh NKZero A F0xy Grampa : Without a doubt this is harder than i gave it credit for, mainly the idea behind it is that you just dont let cage catch you, and you punish him with a 100% reset if he fucks up at any point with anything (accidental whiffed b3, or the f2 comes out). If you dont do that, cage can run around as he pleases and has to just hold block if you come within d4/b2 range, if he has a life lead then who cares, and smokebombs are useless. Smoking back just makes cage have to dash once more to catch you, which he can do easily he has a nice dash.

Once he catches you, down poking out isnt exactly that easy, you get 1 poke on him maybe, but its not enough space to do anything game changing, cage can hold block and laugh hard while you do like 5% chip and put yourself at neutral best, where cage can pretty much push any button and beat out everything that isnt a d3 or d1. EX shake is tempramental, i got meter drained twice using it to get out of pressure, and most other times it was just low poked. after 11f1 an EX shake well timed will stop the "guaranteed" f3 due to its 0-1frame startup, but once cage knows that you might aswell just piss your meter away because he shouldnt get caught twice.

Ex drift is very unreliable against anyone, so cage doesnt give a shit about that either.

Im fairly sure this is not 5-5, though in reality through perfect footsies and spacing you might be able to build 2 meters before losing any life just off random pokes and pressure strings and whiff punishing, if that happens you need to make cage breaker, which isnt that easy tbh, and once hes breaker is gone you NEED to kill him before he builds that meter back, because your health is dropping to chip while his meter fills straight back up again.

 

[NKZero]

Zwooosh NKZero A F0xy Grampa : Without a doubt this is harder than i gave it credit for, mainly the idea behind it is that you just dont let cage catch you, and you punish him with a 100% reset if he fucks up at any point with anything (accidental whiffed b3, or the f2 comes out). If you dont do that, cage can run around as he pleases and has to just hold block if you come within d4/b2 range, if he has a life lead then who cares, and smokebombs are useless. Smoking back just makes cage have to dash once more to catch you, which he can do easily he has a nice dash.

Once he catches you, down poking out isnt exactly that easy, you get 1 poke on him maybe, but its not enough space to do anything game changing, cage can hold block and laugh hard while you do like 5% chip and put yourself at neutral best, where cage can pretty much push any button and beat out everything that isnt a d3 or d1. EX shake is tempramental, i got meter drained twice using it to get out of pressure, and most other times it was just low poked. after 11f1 an EX shake well timed will stop the "guaranteed" f3 due to its 0-1frame startup, but once cage knows that you might aswell just piss your meter away because he shouldnt get caught twice.

Ex drift is very unreliable against anyone, so cage doesnt give a shit about that either.

Im fairly sure this is not 5-5, though in reality through perfect footsies and spacing you might be able to build 2 meters before losing any life just off random pokes and pressure strings and whiff punishing, if that happens you need to make cage breaker, which isnt that easy tbh, and once hes breaker is gone you NEED to kill him before he builds that meter back, because your health is dropping to chip while his meter fills straight back up again.

Yeah that's pretty much spot on. Smoke cannot harm Cage from afar and once Cage is in.....you're being taken out...for dinner! I still maintain 6-4 Cage's favour tbh.

 

[Zwooosh]

Zwooosh NKZero A F0xy Grampa : Without a doubt this is harder than i gave it credit for, mainly the idea behind it is that you just dont let cage catch you, and you punish him with a 100% reset if he fucks up at any point with anything (accidental whiffed b3, or the f2 comes out). If you dont do that, cage can run around as he pleases and has to just hold block if you come within d4/b2 range, if he has a life lead then who cares, and smokebombs are useless. Smoking back just makes cage have to dash once more to catch you, which he can do easily he has a nice dash.

Once he catches you, down poking out isnt exactly that easy, you get 1 poke on him maybe, but its not enough space to do anything game changing, cage can hold block and laugh hard while you do like 5% chip and put yourself at neutral best, where cage can pretty much push any button and beat out everything that isnt a d3 or d1. EX shake is tempramental, i got meter drained twice using it to get out of pressure, and most other times it was just low poked. after 11f1 an EX shake well timed will stop the "guaranteed" f3 due to its 0-1frame startup, but once cage knows that you might aswell just piss your meter away because he shouldnt get caught twice.

Ex drift is very unreliable against anyone, so cage doesnt give a shit about that either.

Im fairly sure this is not 5-5, though in reality through perfect footsies and spacing you might be able to build 2 meters before losing any life just off random pokes and pressure strings and whiff punishing, if that happens you need to make cage breaker, which isnt that easy tbh, and once hes breaker is gone you NEED to kill him before he builds that meter back, because your health is dropping to chip while his meter fills straight back up again.

You had to work SO much harder than i did when we were playing.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Playing F0xy and a regular Cage is so drastically different.

 

[smokey]

Yeah that's pretty much spot on. Smoke cannot harm Cage from afar and once Cage is in.....you're being taken out...for dinner! I still maintain 6-4 Cage's favour tbh.

Theres no real threat with smokebombs, dash block competently and you have no problems. Getting out is alot harder than you might think for smoke even with such slightly slower normals it makes the whole difference when you are being kneed in the face.

You had to work SO much harder than i did when we were playing.

To tell you the truth i tried playing a more direct approach at first, and once i realised if you got in it was going to be a very annoying task getting you out, i started trying to just bucket all my meter and then kill you in one, which happened once or twice, but in practice matches cant always go the way you want and with no real backup plan its an all or nothing win.

 

[Zwooosh]

To tell you the truth i tried playing a more direct approach at first, and once i realised if you got in it was going to be a very annoying task getting you out, i started trying to just bucket all my meter and then kill you in one, which happened once or twice, but in practice matches cant always go the way you want and with no real backup plan its an all or nothing win.

That pretty much proves it's a bad match when you have to basically gamble for the reset.

 

[l3rainst0rm]

i see this MU as a classic 5-5 honestly. its the perfect mix of zoning and space control vs getting in at all costs. i personally love this MU playing smoke.

 

[Deleted member 9158]

F3 dream machine

 

[FrothyOmen]

5-5 with the reset
4-6 without it

 

[RiBBz22]

6-4 Cage with or without the reset.

 

[Gh0sty]

It's the ridiculous range of his dash-in and his auto-correcting wake ups that make this MU such a pain in the ass for me. I'm waiting for Cage to jump in at me so i can AA, while constantly getting rushed in on and eating red kicks. Whiff a tele to start pressure? Enjoy this EX nut punch. Oh, and the meter building while you attempt to d1/d3 out of pressure, leading to the inevitable EX fireball f3 bullshit...*gasp*... *gasp*...ok, I feel better now. 6-4 Cage.


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