Match-up Discussion Putting the Cage vs Smoke Match-Up to Rest.

[xSMoKEx]

So i've heard various Smoke players say it's 4-6, Johnny's favor. I've also heard various Cage players say it's 4-6 Smoke's favor. Many people in the community are unsure of the true standing of this match-up, and so i figured the commuity as a whole could debunk this and come to a conclusion.

I personally feel this MU is 4.5-5.5, Cage's favor. Cage's fast dash speed coupled with the range of his normals allows him to move in with ease. F3 also has less duration frames than most attacks so whiff punishing it can sometimes be a nuisance. Cage's pressure really destroy's Smoke once he's in, he has no armor.

However... Assuming Smoke is P1, and you are on a big stage, Smoke goes even or possibly even 6-4. P1 saves anyone some trouble vs Cage as his 11F1 shenanigans are now a little less overwhelming. You have a chance to poke him out, better than the usual "eat my F3". You're turning his guarenteed F3 into a 50/50 (asuning you can hit the frame link) which is better than nothing. You're 3D12 and other 0 strings can always be followed up with D1~Smoke Away, ensuring that you always create distance. This is ever so important in the Cage match-up.

Finally, a big stage lets you keep him away for longer, and allows you to build more meter. The latter aplies not only through more zoning, but through ending your combo's. You see, after every combo Smoke can end it with F4~Shake cancel. He can do 2-4 shake cancels after a combo building large amounts of meter. If the stage is smaller they will be cornered and the F4 will push them into the corner (which could be right next to you) rather than full screen. So if you're on say, the pit, this tactic will become much more rare, as most of the time there isn't enough room on the stage to push your opponent away from you. So i feel on a big stage such as rooftop day, Smoke is P1, it is 5.5-4.5 Smoke.


I can see this match-up becoming 5-5 or possibly even 6-4 Smoke in the future. But for i have it as 4.5-5.5 /5.5-4.5 depending on the stage and player variables. The match-up just needs to evolve more. (please remember some players do not .5's and so 4.5-5.5 / 5.5-4.5 would each be rounded into 4-6 / 6-4)

Cage players, Smoke players, whats your thoughts on the match-up?

A F0xy Grampa CURBOLICOUS Dizzy KT Smith Wafflez gamer @DetroitBalln Maxter

 

[ragnar0kz28]

What do you think of Kabal REO got lucky he beat you for real.

 

[Zwooosh]

Honestly i feel it's 5-5. It really comes down to the players in that match and that's why it can look in each other's favor.

 

[ragnar0kz28]

Hope to see you at EVO this year u will do great

 

[Eh SnOwY]

Smoke you are GDLK.

 

[xSMoKEx]

Honestly i feel it's 5-5. It really comes down to the players in that match and that's why it can look in each other's favor.

Ultimately, all match-ups come down to the players play-style. However there should be a reference point. Assuming both players know the match-up, Smoke is keeping away and Cage is closing the distance safely, what would the match-up be like? That is really what i am asking.

 

[Zwooosh]

Ultimately, all match-ups come down to the players play-style. However there should be a reference point. Assuming both players know the match-up, Smoke is keeping away and Cage is closing the distance safely, what would the match-up be like? That is really what i am asking.

Well if cage is closing the distance safely it would be in his favor i'd say because smoke would be taking more damage from blockstrings than he is doing keeping cage away. If the smoke can catch cage in smoke bombs often it would be in smoke's favor.

 

[exyle]

ex-SmokeAway is not invincible on startup and you have no armor. How are you going to get away from Cage once he's in your face?
Watching KTsmith vs Curbo was brutal. KTsmith could't let go of block without eating a combo. Plus KT said Curbo blew him up in casuals with a score of 9-1. (i could be wrong on numbers, but Curbo definitely beat him bad in casuals)
6-4 for Cage.

 

[RiBBz22]

I think it is a pretty cut and dry 6-4 Cage. It isn't 100% easy for Cage to get in because of Smoke's great anit-air options and runaway tactics. However, since Smoke can't zone with smoke bomb, one slip up and Cage is in where his options are much more devastating and put him at an advantage. With this being said, I still don't mind the match up.

 

[FrothyOmen]

There are only two variables you are going to see in this matchup, assuming there is a conflip for choice of p1 or stage.

P1 Smoke vs. P2 Cage on The Pit
P1 Cage vs. P2 Smoke on Rooftop (Day)

Making an assumption that Smoke will be both P1 and on a big map to make the matchup 6-4 is silly. That will not happen in tournament.

That said, it's tough to choose which option would be better for smoke. I agree with xsmoke's numbers though.

 

[xSMoKEx]

Remember, it's a match-up number not strictly tournament play. That being said, what if i get P1, lose a match and pick Rooftop (Day) or my opponent lets me pick stage.

How is that so inconcievable?

Does the match-up not change? Is that not the whole point of stage counter-picking? It definitely provides benefits, and while i do say Smoke wins on a big stage and P1, i'm not saying the MU is in his favor. I'm just saying it may very well be in Smoke's favor if:

 

[smokey]

The troubles i get with cage is that he has absolutely no problem getting in at all, he might have a fun ride doing it, with the smoke aways, invisibilities, and the threat of the smoke bomb always in the back of their mind, but cage WILL get in, its unfortunately inevitable, and also very frustrating.

I feel the only reason JC players see smoke as a threat is because they have to catch him when he make his pokes safer with backwards smokes, but smoke has one of the most mediocre defenses against cage.

Though its annoying for cage to get in, i would say that its more annoying for smoke getting out, and if you are always being checked by pokes, it can be really hard to EX shake or drift out, both of which will be beaten clean by a d1 or d3.

Another factor pushing this even is the reset and damage/set up capability smoke has, that really a player has to see every set up before he can make an accurate read on what way to wake up attack, and where smoke is on the screen, which contributes to your ability to stay out of his face.

I feel smoke HAS TO take more risks to win this, because you cant be safe forever. But because you are smoke, cage is LIKELY to take risks, giving you opportunities to get ahead.

5-5 on a good day, cages favour if he knows where you are going to be and how to catch you.

 

[FrothyOmen]

Well at the tournaments I've been to they've been run like this: P1 gets P1, P2 gets stage choice the whole way through. There is no stage choice switching between players; it's locked on player 2.

As soon as I find somebody that doesn't give a shit if they're player 1/2, I will pick player 1 and counterpick the stage 100% of the time. If a Cage player does not use either of these options to their advantage, they're idiots. Plain and simple. You think that dizzy, maxter, curbo, or any other top level cage player is not going to take these rules seriously and just say "meh"? That's unreasonable. The whole point of matchups is that both characters are assumed to be played at the highest possible level; if they're not using the rules to their advantage, they aren't playing at the highest level and matchup numbers are even less relevant than they already aren't.

Matchups don't mean anything outside of tournament. Casuals are casuals, they're all just for practice and learning. Shouldn't be taken seriously unless there's money on the line.

Of course the matchup changes based upon p1 and stage. It's just unreasonable to think you're going to have both is all I'm saying. You get one. -_-

 

[NKZero]

xSMoKEx I'd say 6-4 Cage. Smoke doesn't have an armoured escape from Cage's frame traps. He cannot really prevent him from getting in either. EX parry may work but blown up if it doesn't. As smokey stated above, riskeward is in Cage's favour. 6-4 to me means slight advantage which is probably the equivalent of 5.5-4.5 in ur opinion.

 

[smokey]

xSMoKEx I'd say 6-4 Cage. Smoke doesn't have an armoured escape from Cage's frame traps. He cannot really prevent him from getting in either. EX parry may work but blown up if it doesn't. As smokey stated above, riskeward is in Cage's favour. 6-4 to me means slight advantage which is probably the equivalent of 5.5-4.5 in ur opinion.

I wouldnt say the "risk : reward" is in cages favour to be perfectly honest. If smoke gets a clean hit on cage and has the execution (presume he will) cage will have to break or potentially lose all of his health. This is pretty good for smoke considering EX forceball traps take meter, and ex shadowkicking idiots are too impatient to wait for you to hit a corner. I would say the the damage smoke can put out is the turning factor in the matchup.

I find that most cage players have this whole "i dont give a fuck" playstyle and risk reward goes out of the window, cage plays like the bastard he really is, and gets you stuck in his pressure while your busy thinking of ways to keep him out or get away, while pressuring yourself when you see the wall approaching and cage gets to that point where you cant smokebomb him anymore, and if he jumps a d4 you lose the round. Its really cat and mouse, where one mistake can cost the match for either player, its just alot easier to put on paper than it is to play, its said alot but when cage is in, matchup charts are out of the window and all that it boils down to is good reads on your part, bad reads on cages part, just frame execution, or armour, and if you can tick those boxes you might be alright, but smoke is down one from the get go and you dont know how good armour really is until you dont have it.

Edit: if cage saves breakers, and uses them to fall back on when going in a little harder than he perhaps should otherwise, smoke really feels the pressure. Cage doesnt need his meter to get in, or stay in, and aslong as he keeps his eye on his meter, there shouldnt be any point in which smoke can get off his longer combos, especially when you are saving your meter for frail attempts at getting out.

 

[G4S KT]

it's not so bad, slightly in Cage's favor.

The reason Curbo beat me so bad is because I was expecting him to just charge in attack. He kept getting me to whiff stuff because I was too jumpy and kept getting faked out and I didn't adapt.

 

[DirtyBalls]

i think its 5-5, however its just speculation. I won't judge off of online vs curbo and other good cage players online.

 

[NKZero]

I wouldnt say the "risk : reward" is in cages favour to be perfectly honest. If smoke gets a clean hit on cage and has the execution (presume he will) cage will have to break or potentially lose all of his health. This is pretty good for smoke considering EX forceball traps take meter, and ex shadowkicking idiots are too impatient to wait for you to hit a corner. I would say the the damage smoke can put out is the turning factor in the matchup.

I find that most cage players have this whole "i dont give a fuck" playstyle and risk reward goes out of the window, cage plays like the bastard he really is, and gets you stuck in his pressure while your busy thinking of ways to keep him out or get away, while pressuring yourself when you see the wall approaching and cage gets to that point where you cant smokebomb him anymore, and if he jumps a d4 you lose the round. Its really cat and mouse, where one mistake can cost the match for either player, its just alot easier to put on paper than it is to play, its said alot but when cage is in, matchup charts are out of the window and all that it boils down to is good reads on your part, bad reads on cages part, just frame execution, or armour, and if you can tick those boxes you might be alright, but smoke is down one from the get go and you dont know how good armour really is until you dont have it.

Edit: if cage saves breakers, and uses them to fall back on when going in a little harder than he perhaps should otherwise, smoke really feels the pressure. Cage doesnt need his meter to get in, or stay in, and aslong as he keeps his eye on his meter, there shouldnt be any point in which smoke can get off his longer combos, especially when you are saving your meter for frail attempts at getting out.

Yeah but Cage doesn't HAVE to play risky that's the point. Whereas a cautious Smoke will simply fall prey to Cage (as will all characters tbh). You either need to have the balls to face Cage (good luck) or have suitable keep away to make it frustrating e.g. Sub Zero, Kenshi or Freddy. Smoke doesn't really have that hence my statement.

But yes I agree with pretty much the rest of what you have said. Besides this isn't an impossible match for Smoke. Just be the better player...simple as.

 

[GGA Wafflez]

4-6 cage, 3-7 input bug

 

[xSMoKEx]

So i'm with KT / Gamer (DirtBalls) at this point.

I will add a pole, i want to see real results lol!

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

As soon as I find somebody that doesn't give a shit if they're player 1/2, I will pick player 1 and counterpick the stage 100% of the time.

I dont give a shit about p1 or p2, or the stages.

If you really wanna beat a smoke player as Cage, just Redkick a smoke bomb on reaction, sit fullscreen and block, let him have all the meter he wants, it dont matter because you'll only kill him with chip anyway

 

[Swifteh94]

It's 6-4 AT LEAST in cage's favour. Smoke can't zone, he can run. The only thing he can do to keep cage out is b2 and d4.

 

[FrothyOmen]

I dont give a shit about p1 or p2, or the stages.

Why not? There are certainly matchups that are affected by it. Would you say that Jax vs. Kabal is exactly the same on rooftop day as it is on The Pit? Just spitballing here.

 

[GGA Wafflez]

Nah, but seriously... one of the huge reasons why this MU is dumb is because cage has nothing to fear as he is mashing buttons because smoke has no armor... when i play cage mirror against GGA Jeremiah... we are literally trading ex nut punches left and right, making smart guesses on when we will continue pressure and when we wont... some characters that have this problem are kitanna, cyrax, and kenshi... HAHA jk that character is fuckin dumb

 

[GGA Wafflez]

Why not? There are certainly matchups that are affected by it. Would you say that Jax vs. Kabal is exactly the same on rooftop day as it is on The Pit? Just spitballing here.

frothy is right... especially when you are against cage... p1 makes a big difference... at least ever since we knew about the advantages p1 has...or is it just getting into our heads...