Agreed. Pretty coincidental how that complaint coincided with the epic rise of tier whoring and nobody wanting to lab and put in work.I have a feeling that's true of a lot more characters than people would think.
Agreed. Pretty coincidental how that complaint coincided with the epic rise of tier whoring and nobody wanting to lab and put in work.I have a feeling that's true of a lot more characters than people would think.
MK9's cons are accented heavily by the rest of the game as a whole.I don't see some of these as cons.
Half the reason mk9 is fondly remembered is because of just how much you can do. It did need a balance pass to even out the top tiers (and basically add characters like sheeva/noob to the game given how trash they are).
For these though-
Unblockable resets- I'm mostly fine with this? I think it was more than ok to have cyrax have this threat. It cost him a ton of meter and you could still breaker out. It should probably require a more specific confirm for him to do the 100% version (little too easy to route into) but this sort of stuff isn't inherently bad.
Chip - I'm even more fine with this. Chip is a perfectly find form of damage. Having characters who can do batshit chip is something tons of games play with, and do successfully, and mk9 mostly did it well.
The rest of this- I think it's absurd this is even in cons. Having powerful moves is what makes games exciting. Yes it was hardly done perfectly in mk9, but again the reason people have fonder memories is because of how crazy/off the wall a match could be. You can have Safe armor/Plus armored launchers and the game will be fine.
I'll just straight say that if you nerf the very top of MK9 slightly (Kabal keeps runstop, but needs meter to get IAB and the like, Kenshi actually has some risk, cyrax routing into 100%'s requiring more risky combo starters, etc), buff the bottom (noob/sheeva/kano actually work, un nerf sub zero, things like that), and get rid of the glitches/bugs/odd bullshit (i might be ok with different frame data on crouching, but the rest should've been cleaned up) you'd have an easy masterpiece.
10 at least still has flavor to it, but 11 feels like what you get when you try and hard follow these over sweeping rules, where everyone feels the same. Scorpion isn't doing crazy reset setups, sub zero isn't putting you in corner jail, johhny isn't chipping off 15% because you want to sit on the block button. It feels like there's 2/3 zoners and 2/3 other types of characters and everyone just falls into different colors of those play-styles.
And still managed to be the most fun MK has provided in the past 10 years lmao.Some additional cons of MK9:
- Player One Advantage
- The meter drain glitch
- Strange frame data — some characters had pokes that were minus on hit, or zero on hit, stuff like Cage F3 had variable frame data on block
- Inconsistent frame data on block between standing and crouching characters
- The input bug and lack of control over negative edge
- Unblockable resets
- Insane amounts of chip
- Plus armored launchers, safe armor, etc.
In Mortal Kombat: Komplete Edition, what was off about Mileena to you?MK9
Characters I Played: Jade, Kabal, Smoke, Stryker & Sektor
Pro:
And I can go on...
- Best representation of each character on the roster: They looked the way they should have looked, they had the best move-set & so on. It was just right except for maybe Mileena.
- Amazing pace: not too fast & not too slow, there’s the right amount of zoning & rushdown.
- No dumb gimmicks
“Kahns”
MKX
- Player 1 Advantage
- Armour was ridiculous [eg: Sonya]
- Costume issues. [eg: Flesh Pits Mileena & UMK3 Cyrax]
- Meter Drain Glitch
- Disappearing Projectiles.
- Input bug
- Quan Chi, runetrap scumbaggery.
- Sonya Blade, literally has everything going for her & I hate her voice actress too!
- Johnny Cage, braindead fuck.
Characters I Played: Takeda (Lasher), Scorpion (Ninjutsu), Mileena (Piercing) & Triborg (Sektor)
Pros:
“Kahns”:
- Takeda, D’Vorah, Erron Black, Triborg & Cassie were great characters!
- I love the 3 variation system
- Combos were fun
- Intros & personality were great & it was funny!
- Run was (mostly) fantastic
- Predator
- Mileena’s face
- Sonya’s voice actress
MK11
- Armour was broken
- Retarded gimmicks (Too many to list)
- Failed at rekkas twice
- Stanky Leg input
- Dumb guest characters (ie: Jason & Leatherface)
- Run Cancel characters
- Mournful Kitana was a waste
- Johnny Cage
- Interactables
- Possessed Kenshi
- Ermac’s Float input
- Sindel & Rain should have been in the game.
Characters Played: Jade, Skarlet, Kabal & Sonya
Pros:
“Kahns”
- Jade
- Kabal
- RoboCop
- Baraka
- Spawn
- Character interactions
- All the MK95 fan service
- Skarlet MKX Comic skin
- MK9 Scorpion skin
- MK3 Sonya skin
Pretty much everything...
I can go on & on...
- Mechanics - Hop, breakaway, flawless block, fatal blow, getup attacks, automatic meter & just everything new they added that wasn’t in MKX.
- Cosmetics - We don’t need 10 different colours of the same skin some & all the different unnecessary cosmetic bullshit. I don’t like most of the redesigns of returning characters except maybe Kabal, his new mask is badass.
- Ladders - We don’t need 1000 different ladders.
- Variations - Just stupid. I liked the MKX variation system or the MK9 variation system: none.
- Characters - Kollector is basically Watto from Star Wars but can fight, Geras is pretty boring basically humanoid Doomsday with lame powers, Cetrion is actually pretty cool & Kronika is lacklustre. They even made some of the returning characters lame or annoying like Cassie had a great personality in MKX & quick witted but in MK11 she falls flat also fuck Kabal, he’s so annoying...
- Pace - Slower than two turtles fucking.
- Dumb guest characters - (eg: Joker, Terminator & Rambo)
- They didn’t need to change literally everything about each character.
- Killed off Ermac & Kenshi
- Wasted Cyrax & Sektor
- Story was probably the worst out of the 3 & it had story DLC!
But I don't think is 100% impossible to do right. I'm not saying mk9 was right, but the solution shouldn't be "no ublockable resets for anyone ever", it should be "ok how doe we make this work better". Cyrax's took meter (could've stood to take 2 bars for ex bomb though), and if it started on a more awkward setup (rather than very easily routing into ex bomb) I think it'd be fine. Ideally scorp can still do his risky mixups, with maybe only one of them punishable by cryax's worst combo, which requires nearly full meter. THere are ways to balance these things other than just rip them out.MK9's cons are accented heavily by the rest of the game as a whole.
Unblockable resets were cool...until you realized how easily and harshly they could skew matchups, Cyrax and Smoke specifically. They were fun to do, and Smoke's were very difficult to land (especially on stray conversions), but they heavily contributed to MU imbalances. Scorp vs Cyrax was largely skewed against Scorp for the sole reason that the biggest part of his game (unfuzzyable 50/50 loops that were unsafe) made Cyrax's damage so much more pronounced as a bad aspect of the game. Cyrax already gave him issues without the damage. Same deal with Smoke...already hard matchup made even worse because you couldn't guess wrong anymore. Definitely a negative.
eh. Again i think a lot of that is "maybe tweak this or that" but don't just flat out remove it. Johnny pressure/quan traps doing a ton of chip was a great way to make them feel unique, and sure someone like skarlet/kenshi probably didn't need it, but i'm just not for the overreaction we often see from players who think that this stuff can NEVER be done, and it bums me that designers are edging towards that.The chip was absolutely absurd. Very easy to rack up extreme amounts of it while maintaining offense, which was generally very well-designed as is. And there were characters who could chop off a whole combo's worth of damage in unavoidable chip setups alone (Skarlet). Because of the high chip damage, Kenshi's keepaway was even worse to handle than you'd think. I don't think it's as bad as the unblockable stuff, but it's reasonable to argue it was a negative.
To give context though, I see high chip and resets under the same umbrella as "powerful moves". MvC, GG, KI, and MK9 are some of my favorite games just because of how much neat shit you can do in them, and still have a surprisingly balanced game, with most of those letting you pick a large portion of the cast up to anything under the highest levels. Hell I enjoy bison in SFV just because I can lock someone in the corner and grind out their lifebar if they don't want to push buttons, and that feels different in a land of shotos.I'll agree with the powerful moves argument not really being a great choice for a con. Some shit was absolutely silly, but that's kind of what brings a lot of charm to using each of the characters. The bugs and resets really do shine through, though, and the game would have needed a lot of changes to actually be a masterpiece, cuz there's a lot that's actually wrong with the game, even with how fun it is.
To make it concise with no ranting or complaining:In Mortal Kombat: Komplete Edition, what was off about Mileena to you?
Fair enough. I personally think that all three games of the modern trilogy represent her well in terms of general character design, taking into considreing the fact that unlike the original timeline, she's "newborn" here.To make it concise with no ranting or complaining:
I liked Mileena’s MKX Piercing variation moveset more & her Edenian/Tarkatan hybrid face in MKX.
I respect your opinion and I think mkx varistion we’re far super to the swap specials laziness of mk11. But ultimately many people myself included would like a more complete and larger move set for a single character unit. Learning 99*99 matchups was truly daunting at times.Variations in MKX is the biggest pro for me. We essentially got 99 characters! And the fact that one is often clearly superior to the others is a moot point to me. I play the characters I find fun, not the ones who most competitively viable... only a tiny tiny player vase are actually serious competitive players so that shouldn't matter all that much. Also I feel there are actually plenty of characters that have at least 2 solid variations. Quan, Tremor, Triborg, mileena, kitana, kotal, kano etc.
I love the variation system in MKX. It was built with variations in mind, meaning each one seems to have it's own compelte style, and when it came to balancing youncould easily give a variation a little extra something I'd it needed it. For example special forces sonya has a launching b2.
In MK11 it feels like the special moves were made individually with no thought about how they work together. You then have to make your own character with these special moves using their very strict custom load out of three slots, where a lot of moves are 2 slots so can't be paired together, are competitively banned either alone or in combination, and have clashed inputs so they can't be used together. It feels more restrictive than X and each character feels fumbled together. Especially when some moves feel vital to make the character feel complete and feel like they should have been base not custom.
Brink back variations in MK12 with the variations being built in mind, without MRS having to stick to their own restrictions that they made at the start of the game. Customs was a good idea, wasn't allowed in some game modes at the start, the ranked variations felt incomplete and thrown together, and custom isn't much better.
There was very public outcry to at the very least make fatal blows go away on block of miss and they refused to do it even later in the games life. This was a clear sign the company was moving in the wrong direction to me…Since 2012 I started to play MK competitively, investing time and money for travel. In fact, a lot of people did. As US players use to travel across the state, the EU players travel across Europe.
When MK9 started to get recognition, competitive Tekken players started to join the scene. The game from a time perspective looks primitive. The game has its issues, a lot of them, and some were/are considered bugs, that never got fixed. All these bugs have been listed here, so I wont list them again here again. Though as a fun fact, one has been left out: Cyrax had invisible bombs, that worked like his regular bombs, but they were something very rare to see.
Aside from these "issues' we all mentioned with time, the meta was evolving, growing. Tech's were found, one after another. I remember the time when @used4glue came up with the Cyber Subzero X ray trap. The great unlockables, perfect setups by @under the Mayo. Within two years, though the roster had no variation system, had so much content, one would require weeks to master. The "dash-block" movement became a huge part of neutral. Getting into the game, was almost as easy, as it is in MK11, but getting into the competitive level, even with Top tier like Kabal, Sonya, Cyrax required a lot from a player. From an execution standpoint to understanding the mechanics, that required really smart meter management. In fact, the bottom meter played a bigger part, than the life bar. Normals on block like d2 and some poke's were death.
Playing Kabal without heavy execution skills resulted in death as you would end up hitting Nomad Dash on block. Instant air gas blast had to be done really low, to be effective.
Cyrax's resets required strong characters spacing because the net had recovery and it meant death. So many tried - the Dominican brothers, DJT, Krazyie, Mustard. I remember when at EVO, there was the EU vs US challenge. That was the day when Mustard, the European unbeaten Cyrax loyalist decided to apply Cyrax's resets, cause he was against it for a long time. Applying successfully Cyrax's resets was not easy even for those who played him for months.
Shang Tsung had a strong, but tight frame trap, but as frame trap standalone did was not enough to actually win. Something, that WoudCawboy could agree upon.
Cyber Sub, standalone was mid-level but with the proper application of advanced techs he had, he could take out S Tier character
Skarlet, though considered as high, as S Tiers never really made a name for herself due to high execution. Very few managed to nail down her to a competitive level. That is something, that all-time loyalist and Skarlet master mind Eddy might say as well. Hey Eddy @Eddy Wang
The character not only was execution heavy but required players to change styles, and understand her tools set to a really high degree.
At some point, near the end of the cycle, we had the "Toasty Boost" come into play, which also was a big part of the game, even though it was triggered randomly, it could shit the game. For that sole purpose combos with D2 were used. While doing, a player was already buffering the input to take the boost in case Dan would make his appreace.
The game was Dynamic, yet footsies had to be played. Anyone could get in, but taking a win against a skilled player was a challenge as there were no amenities. The bar to be a "strong" player was high.
Then we had MKX, again, most stuff were already mentioned by others. Though not many here had the opportunity and managed to play all two first titles to a competitive level, which required to really know the game to a much high degree. That group of players was able to see through MK11 in the first two weeks - they knew the meta, and character contact will not change - they werent very wrong. That said, I would also like to state for the record, that MK11 in terms of balance, is on top, and that is something that cannot be taken away.
though when I look at the three titles, one next to another, I see that design policy has changed with MK11: the amount amenites played a big part in the "balance" we have, but it also was the death sentence of what NRS managed to create with two previous titles.
I am not against lowering the bar. Crapcom is a good example. SF5 was a joke - I bought the digital edition, and coming from SF4 was hard, I had to slow down my inputs, cause the frame windows were so huge. I dropped the game in the first month, and never look back. I look at the game now, and I would be able to express myself how proud I am of what they manage to do. The game can be played at a "casual" level because the entry bar is low, but you dont have those amenities.
When focused on certain aspects of MK11, like the defensive options, pokes, d2, FB on block, meter auto re-gen, JK with crazy priority, the brain does a flip. During two previous titles, each had issues, but none had such nonsense. Sometimes, this is unbelievable how exploiting these elements can be hard to defend up against. Not to mention, that when you look logically at certain character designs, some moves properties dont make any sense. I could go on, and on, but most of you know the absurds MK11 holds. These issues or design concepts are beyond what we have seen before.
For most people, MK11 is stale, lacks combo creativity but there are deeper concerns within the design department and that is a bigger problem. I still play the game on regular basis, but mostly only offline. Due to these absurds, online is much less fun for me.
I think most characters did feel fleshed out. Each character seemed to have a big enough base set and the variations often seemed extra. Not all the time though.I respect your opinion and I think mkx varistion we’re far super to the swap specials laziness of mk11. But ultimately many people myself included would like a more complete and larger move set for a single character unit. Learning 99*99 matchups was truly daunting at times.
I think one of the most toxic things in am of Nrs history was Jason’s red screen. You can end a meter less combo in plus 55 on knockdown and start it up for free. This idea likely would have been left on the cutting room floor if we had fleshed out characters and if it wasn’t… well god help us.