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Strategy Project Trigon - testing normal, special and combo string safety

S

Sami

Noob
Today starts 5 days of solid testing which aims to fully document the properties of every single one of Raven's moves and strings, including block-strings, hit-strings, gaps (including which characters can escape and which ones treat them as frame-traps), recovery, ducking, character stances/traits which screw over combos, etc. It will NOT cover damage and gravity scaling, nor will it cover counter-pokes and wiff-punishes. It's very much a defensive guide on what you can get away with when using Raven. If I'm not completely mentally broken after doing this I might look into doing a punishment guide, but not now. Definitely not now :).

I will be dumping the data in this thread sporadically over the next 5 days (and will then format it into a super-fancy post which will hopefully be stickied), but while I'm doing so I need to ask for a bit of help. Not with the testing itself, but with the properties of other characters.

Still being fairly new to the game, I'm not 100% up on all the tricks that the various characters can do to avoid being hit. On my list of specific things to test are:

Aquaman's fish-oiled body
Cat Woman's low stance
Doomsday's fixed hit-stun trait
Flash's low stance
Grundy's super-move armour

If you know of any other characters which have ways of avoiding hits (or messing up the results of being hit) please post in here so I can be sure to test them all. No need to worry about parries as I've got a list of those already.

This will take a while to do, as I am literally brute-focing most of the tests (testing everything vs everyone) until I'm able to work out the exact frame gaps between moves and extrapolate the rest. Don't start bitching that X combo into Y special hasn't been covered yet until the end of the 5 days!
 
S

Sami

Noob
lol how could I forget that? I'm really not looking forward to the headache of testing that one.

4 of the cast done yesterday and then realised I forgot to test things like partially ducking strings/etc so need to go back and do those. I'm close to hating Injustice already :D
 
S

Sami

Noob
that feeling when all of your testing is rendered invalid due to a couple of stupid mistakes. Back to square one...

In good news, it seems neutral 3 (two-hit) is actually neutral on block. Frame data is wrong (multi-hit move), but testing jump times in a Raven mirror match after Z is blocked indicates that it's either neutral or at most +1/-1.
 
S

Sami

Noob
np :). Still going strong, got side-tracked by work and actually playing the game. Will be resuming this weekend.
 
zaf

zaf

professor
Jer and I have gone through the cast to find gaps that can be parried with batman and KF.
The only gap that I believe raven has is in her 223 string. The gap is between the 2nd 2 and the 3.
 
kabelfritz

kabelfritz

Noob
zaf said:
Jer and I have gone through the cast to find gaps that can be parried with batman and KF.
The only gap that I believe raven has is in her 223 string. The gap is between the 2nd 2 and the 3.
Click to expand...
a buddy of mine accidently dashed out of it but couldnt do it again. probably a 1-frame gap or something.
 
zaf

zaf

professor
kabelfritz said:
a buddy of mine accidently dashed out of it but couldnt do it again. probably a 1-frame gap or something.
Click to expand...
yea makes sense that you can dash out, you have invincibility frames on the back dash.

and yea batman can parry that string in between the 2 and 3, but i cant seem to get it down with joker. so it might be a 1frame gap.
 
kabelfritz

kabelfritz

Noob
zaf said:
yea makes sense that you can dash out, you have invincibility frames on the back dash.

and yea batman can parry that string in between the 2 and 3, but i cant seem to get it down with joker. so it might be a 1frame gap.
Click to expand...
i dont think it would even have needed invincibility, the range covered by the dash was big enough to not get hit.

grundy and bane should be able to get in between too with their armor.
 
zaf

zaf

professor
kabelfritz said:
i dont think it would even have needed invincibility, the range covered by the dash was big enough to not get hit.

grundy and bane should be able to get in between too with their armor.
Click to expand...
yup you can armor it, and i think most chars can with f3/b3 MB
 
Euphoric

Euphoric

MKX
zaf said:
yea makes sense that you can dash out, you have invincibility frames on the back dash.

and yea batman can parry that string in between the 2 and 3, but i cant seem to get it down with joker. so it might be a 1frame gap.
Click to expand...
You can interrupt her 11F2 after her 11.
 
Euphoric

Euphoric

MKX
zaf said:
cool didnt know, although i did test all her strings. maybe some slipped by, doing this at 5am and not sleeping for days lolol
Click to expand...
I tested with AI, her 11B2 doesn't appear to have a gap but, her 11F2 does, you can interrupt her during early animation of the F2, still a tight window, IMO.

Also just good to know you can interrupt all her 11 strings if crouching after 1. The 1 whiffs on all characters crouching since it's a high even on big bodies.

And yes to the other guy, 22 (Back Dash Window) 3 is backdashable but not pokable (6f D+1) from what I tested.

Just my observations.
 
S

Sami

Noob
Can confirm it's not 6f pokable. I've no idea if back-dash animation time is the same for all characters (obviously the movement speed differs).

HOWEVER

I have been testing and it seems you get a sort of option-select on this. If you input 223~special (any) and they back-dash out of the 3, the special move won't come out. Specials only cancel if the attack before them hits or is blocked. Backdash counts as neither, hence the special move won't come out. Just hold block (d or b doesn't matter which) after the input for the special, and she will just go straight into block if 3 is dashed out of.

Of course, the downside is that if they don't back-dash and just block the whole string then the special comes out which will usually leave you very unsafe (especially if using normal stance specials).

If they mistime the back-dash then they eat the 3 and special.

THIS ALSO MEANS

Opponent might attempt to dash out of 223 to get out of pressure and make some space. 22~db2 or df2 has no gap, so if they go for a back-dash expecting 223~special and you do 22~special, they will be caught. However, if they block the whole thing then you will be punished.

This guessing game is much safer for Raven using demon stance lol.
 
S

Sami

Noob
Kiko said:
Great topic #iSupport
Click to expand...
Cheers. I've got half the cast done so far, but I'm anguishing over how to format it in an easy way (will probably be per-move). My plan of dumping info character by character as I did them turned out to be a terrible idea as it would mean duplicating sooooooo much.

Basically, this is a sort-of apology for the lack of updates, but also a notice that I am still working on this :)
 
P

Peccavi

Noob
Superman can super in the middle of 223, but mix in some 22 strings and he's unlikely to risk all his meter on it.

Edit: Oh, Duh, everybody can super in the middle, since supers are armored.
 
Kiko

Kiko

Face it, you're done.
Um so I was trying to do some testing myself and this list would end up being MASSIVE. :confused:
 
Mr. Mileena

Mr. Mileena

Noob
In terms of block advantage, she is safe on EVERYTHING she has other than her special moves (Soul Crush, Singularity in both demon and regular mode, projectiles, and her reflect + teleport)

All her normals, strings, pokes, etc. are safe on block.
 
S

Sami

Noob
Main thing I'm testing are gaps in combos, either in the main string string or between string and special to see what can be punished. Most of the cast are unable to punish, but there are a few that can. In addition, due to push-back on block some of the string that end in a special are much harder to punish than usual due to the opponent being out of range of their quick attacks.

Also, as for all of her strings being safe on block, parry and most supers blows up the gap in 223. So that's not quite true ;)

edit: also on the testing list are cancelling the string on hit into trait (and whether it's safe or not), which of course varies on the string juggles, knocks down (normal or hard), etc.
 
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