Question - Unbreakable Possible adjustment for Unbreakable?

[MadeOfMetal]

Lets start with out of the 3 variants for sub zero, i love this one the most.


Unbreakable has parry.
an OH and many lows.

Great mixups for one bar with EX aura.

but one thing i would like changed is his Normal Aura recovery.

if we could get at least 5-8 frames shaved off of that then we could not easily but more consistently get Aura combos to work in a tournament setting.

his normals don't have as much advantage as others.

basically his B12 is the best one to use with 20 on hit.

from this you can Aura and follow up with either 242 or F33 into a metered slid for combo.

the problem here is he only has about 2 frames to input the 2 strings after Aura is casted.

if aura recovery was reduced then he would have at least 10-7 frames to input it. and it would by no means make him safe on any string.

the only way it works is with moves that are plus 15 or more on hit.

currently and with what im suggesting is he will still not be able to continue combo while they block.

if its done by a small margin like 5-8 frames then he will have 3-4 strings to use, and none of them are mixups.

imo this would make Unbreakable so much more viable and fun for many to use.
and what i have purposed is fair and in no way gives him broke tools.

since normal Aura is like 30 something Frames of recovery we are talking:

making it 25 recovery or 22 recovery while EX Aura stays 15 recovery.

I know what people fear when they here Aura recovery reduced!

Will he be able to use it on every end of string and make them safe? the answer is no!

to use it in middle of combo he would have to get you on hit like he does now.

So what i am purposing we change is Frozen Aura recovery from:
31 Recovery to 23 Recovery or 26 Recovery

EX should remain the same at: 15 Recovery

Note even when using EX Ice Aura it is very hard with many strings to link them.

im not asking for that, just a little wiggle room with the super hard link that normal aura is now.

Aura Combos

5/10 consistency




Tell Me what you think below.

 

[Baconlord]

Is this like the 8th unbreakable buff thread

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Is this like the 8th unbreakable buff thread

yet no one suggested this change, and since when has it become wrong to ask for a character to get adjustments?

ive seen many threads asking for unreasonable tier changing Buffs, but thats not what this is.
this is a fair request that will change no tier placement.

not asking for a string to be safe or a link to be safe.

just a little less recovery on a move that is used in a combo, to make the 2 frame links easier.

that surly isn't worth putting down this thread is it now?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Sub-Zero isn't properly equipped for the neutral without the ice clone in my honest opinion.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Sub-Zero isn't properly equipped for the neutral without the ice clone in my honest opinion.

i think the ice clone is gawd awful and fails on many matchups,

and where it fails, Unbreakable prevails in my opinion.

i have a Parry
Damage boost on Shatter While aura is active
Take no Chip while Frozen aura is Active
Reduced taken damage while EX Ice Aura is active (this also effects how much Meter your opponent builds) since it scales off % of damage taken.

so if i block everything they get no meter. if i have EX aura active they get half as much meter or close to.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Let the damn parry build meter and faster recovery! >.<

 

[Colest]

Sub-Zero isn't properly equipped for the neutral without the ice clone in my honest opinion.

This is the correct statement. Sub Zero is in a spot balance wise where if they touch his normals then GM gets too good because his neutral game stops being his weakness but the other variations suffer from his ass-tastic frame data.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

i think the ice clone is gawd awful and fails on many matchups,

and where it fails, Unbreakable prevails in my opinion.

i have a Parry
Damage boost on Shatter While aura is active
Take no Chip while Frozen aura is Active
Reduced taken damage while EX Ice Aura is active (this also effects how much Meter your opponent builds) since it scales off % of damage taken.
so if i block everything they get no meter. if i have EX aura active they get half as much meter or close to.

The ice clone is and isn't gawd awful. In some matchups it is devastating, in some it is non existent. Cryo is better than unbreakable in the trouble matchups, even then he still gets raped.

 

[Somea2V]

Is this like the 8th unbreakable buff thread

Maybe it is. It's also related to Subzero on a subforum devoted to him. So I don't see how it matters how many buff threads there are for the sake of discussion given they're in the right place and you never have to see them if you keep your nose out of forums that don't matter to you.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

@PrimBloodGhost

 

[Jaku2011]

Is this like the 8th unbreakable buff thread

He needs more buff threads.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Nah. Make his slide safe on block when aura is active AND fully invincible on wakeup. Bring the nightmare of Killer Frost back again

 

[boba_buster]

He needs more buff threads.

No his buff threads just need buffs

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that unbreakable has a clear cut winning matchup. I used to think he beat slasher and unstoppable Jason, but no way now.

 

[GAV]

I have an idea to move NRS games forward. I think Unbreakable would be the ideal variation to try it out on first. Tell me what you think...

Crush Counters!!!

No need to watch the whole thing. A few seconds will give you a visual.

The key to making this work is to give the characters JUST ONE. They can either crush lows, mids, highs, or overheads. I'll leave it to the Sub Zero players to choose the one that best fits Unbreakable's existing moveset.

Keep in mind, I have no power. Its just a suggestion, but its a good one that will move the brand forward.

Any character who would have more than one would have to be limited in offense in order to achieve balance.

If you think, characters already have counters - you would be right - but these would be different. One, those counters are moves. These are different from moves.

One, their input would be different. Two, they would be immediate. In other words, if you had a low crush - you could sit on high block and crush most lows on reaction. Likewise with an overhead crush. Highs and mids would be lesser buffs to any character, but would still create pause in their opponents before sticking out their favorite high or mid poke. Now, you could still get faked out or thrown, but it would be a nice tool - a way to take back the initiative with a nice read. Also, think of the hype stealing momentum back creates at tourneys. Now, give the pros tools to make it happen more often. It means more hype!!!

Now, how to implement it into the control scheme???

R-Stick tap for lows and overhead crushes and two punches for high crush and two kicks for low crush would be adequate, but I'm thinking that the guys at NRS could find tons of creative ways to implement this concept into their games.

Remember the rule, not everyone needs to have everything everyone else has. Some characters are great without it, so they don't need it. In my mind, this is a tool for balancing. Its also a tool for learning. Having your crush counter switched as you change characters gives you more to learn, more to think about - and further extends the matchups into each characters' move-sets - making you take into account whether your favorite attacks can be crush countered or not in any character matchup.

 

[ando1184]

Lets start with out of the 3 variants for sub zero, i love this one the most.


Unbreakable has parry.
an OH and many lows.

Great mixups for one bar with EX aura.

but one thing i would like changed is his Normal Aura recovery.

if we could get at least 5-8 frames shaved off of that then we could not easily but more consistently get Aura combos to work in a tournament setting.

his normals don't have as much advantage as others.

basically his B12 is the best one to use with 20 on hit.

from this you can Aura and follow up with either 242 or F33 into a metered slid for combo.

the problem here is he only has about 2 frames to input the 2 strings after Aura is casted.

if aura recovery was reduced then he would have at least 10-7 frames to input it. and it would by no means make him safe on any string.

the only way it works is with moves that are plus 15 or more on hit.

currently and with what im suggesting is he will still not be able to continue combo while they block.

if its done by a small margin like 5-8 frames then he will have 3-4 strings to use, and none of them are mixups.

imo this would make Unbreakable so much more viable and fun for many to use.
and what i have purposed is fair and in no way gives him broke tools.

since normal Aura is like 30 something Frames of recovery we are talking:

making it 25 recovery or 22 recovery while EX Aura stays 15 recovery.

I know what people fear when they here Aura recovery reduced!

Will he be able to use it on every end of string and make them safe? the answer is no!

to use it in middle of combo he would have to get you on hit like he does now.





Aura Combos

5/10 consistency




Tell Me what you think below.

Why are you wanting another improvement to his offensive options? I'm sorry but I don't think that will really help him escape from possibly being worst variation in the game at this point. He still has bad frames and horrendous meter building capabilities. His defensive options are what really need help in unbreakable.

 

[Nausea]

The parry should reflect projectiles at double the speed and an EX Parry absorbs projectiles and gives Subby a slight damage boost.

Hopefully he receives some sort of help as should a few others that sit where Unbreakable is sitting. (Hat Trick, Ancestral, Necromancer etc.)

 

[dennycascade]

Won't this make f4 ice aura like +10 at the cost of no resources?

 

[Eddy Wang]

I still ask myself today why NRS hasn't given some of MK Mythologies special moves on Sub, if they don't want to put Frost in the game with a different move set, it wouldn't hurt to have that style of play in the fighting franchise.

i mean that sub had
air freeze
diagonal freeze
freeze on contact
polar blast
ground freeze

putting aside, slide, power slide, ice clone

any of those special moves, specially the polar blast one and the freeze on contact would help sub much more in the neutral.

 

[Goat-City]

My 2 cents on what Unbreakable should get, pasted and edited from another thread -

The main things Unbreakable's parry should get are 10-15 fewer recovery frames on the parry and 20-25 fewer on the EX parry, parry building meter and having 3 start up frames on the normal version, and a small nerf in the parry losing its backwards hit box so it doesn't work on teleports unless on reaction after the auto side switch.

For the aura, he needs the aura to build meter by blocking and to build extra meter while being hit, and he needs reduced regular damage intake on the normal aura as well, not just the EX version. EX aura should simply be a pressure tool and it should maybe get a hit of armor, MAYBE. The normal aura should also be about 3 frames faster so we can link b12 ice aura into instant jump punch on hit to combo. Ice aura lastly needs less damage scaling in combos.

Additional buffs that aren't necessarily needed or important would be parry working on jump attacks, parry being holdable similar to Assassin Kitana's parry, the EX parry starting up in 1 frame, more safe aura cancels (with either 24, 12, or 123,) slightly more damage on the aura enhanced ice burst, and/or the normal slide removing the aura on hit. However, I think he'd be good enough without these.

And universal Sub Zero changes that should be made are 112 being -6 or less on block with increased push back, 114 being -8 on block, b33d4 having the same minus frames and push back as b4, s11 being a good stagger with 20 fewer recovery frames, s24 being a better stagger with 5 fewer recovery frames, a 7 frame d1 and 8 frame d3, b2 doing 2% less damage and becoming slightly more minus on block ideally, and also b12 doing 2% less damage. These are in the context of my Grandmaster and Cryo change ideas but they're not relevant to this thread.

 

[boba_buster]

My 2 cents on what Unbreakable should get, pasted and edited from another thread -

The main things Unbreakable's parry should get are 10-15 fewer recovery frames on the parry and 20-25 fewer on the EX parry, parry building meter and having 3 start up frames on the normal version, and a small nerf in the parry losing its backwards hit box so it doesn't work on teleports unless on reaction after the auto side switch.

For the aura, he needs the aura to build meter by blocking and to build extra meter while being hit, and he needs reduced regular damage intake on the normal aura as well, not just the EX version. EX aura should simply be a pressure tool and it should maybe get a hit of armor, MAYBE. The normal aura should also be about 3 frames faster so we can link b12 ice aura into instant jump punch on hit to combo. Ice aura lastly needs less damage scaling in combos.

Additional buffs that aren't necessarily needed or important would be parry working on jump attacks, parry being holdable similar to Assassin Kitana's parry, the EX parry starting up in 1 frame, more safe aura cancels (with either 24, 12, or 123,) slightly more damage on the aura enhanced ice burst, and/or the normal slide removing the aura on hit. However, I think he'd be good enough without these.

And universal Sub Zero changes that should be made are 112 being -6 or less on block with increased push back, 114 being -8 on block, b33d4 having the same minus frames and push back as b4, s11 being a good stagger with 20 fewer recovery frames, s24 being a better stagger with 5 fewer recovery frames, a 7 frame d1 and 8 frame d3, b2 doing 2% less damage and becoming slightly more minus on block ideally, and also b12 doing 2% less damage. These are in the context of my Grandmaster and Cryo change ideas but they're not relevant to this thread.

None of these are good ideas.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

1. Parry recovers instantly vs projectiles
2. Parry stops jump ins. Seems dumb at first, but it would open a mind game for opponents to empty jump for a free punish.
3. Some new strings with gaps to open parry opportunities. Don't fuck with already existing strings.
4. Aura builds Sub-Zero meter while blocking
5. EX aura negates opponents building meter.

P.S.- none of this will ever happen. NRS doesn't understand this variation. Rather than fix fundamental problems with UB, they think it's better to give him a new launcher that scales horribly, when he has no meter building capability as is.

 

[ando1184]

None of these are good ideas.

Well not necessarily bad ideas either. The parts about parry are kinda helpful but not parrying behind him "is" a bad idea. Parry should work like all other parries in the game. As for aura, those would be fine but only if it's one or the other. Having all of that together might get the nerf brigade on us . Then again, BG Kotal has similar stuff and then some, so maybe not?