People think She is Easy?

[DrFolmer]

It's a great move, probably one of her best, but you don't see players spamming it and winning matches because of it. It's a tool that's strong in neutral not one that beats neutral. F4 is good because of everything else she has. She might be the best character in the game if you put the effort in, but you do need a pulse to play her

It's not just f4. F2 is an insane normal that is ALSO 0 on block. It's a high, but seriously when the fuck are you neutral ducking Cassie when she has b2 that has almost the same range, and f2 leads to a KB if you try to mess up the stagger read, and leads to a mid with plus frames. It does have a bit of recovery, but the 1+3 part is not too fast either so it's not super obvious. Once you start respecting f4, she can get plus frames off s3 and that just gives her so much leverage since she's +3. And yeah 111 is super fucking good as an auto shimmy and can be made safe with glow kick which also has quite some pushback.

Cassie is not this complex character, she's the simplest yet most effective footsie character in the entire game having acess to plus on block mids, super fast neutral on block mids, some of the best reach on hitconfirmable strings. Is safe on everything she does with hella pushback on her staggers thus having loads of neat little shimmy strats.

There's a reason why everybody is playing Cassie or has a pocket Cassie. It's not the Sonic effect, it's the 'damn this character super easy to pick up and be succesful with' effect. And yes she requires knowledge of fundamental footsies - thing is, her kit creates shimmy opportunities on block there for kinda setting it up for her without the player having to do much. You literally just f4, walk back as 7 frame jabs wont reach her and voila have your free combo. Such skill requirements must say. She takes no risks in her whiff baiting game - something everyone else except Kabal as to do. Kabal is at least punishable on his mixups and wakeups.

 

[Sanjo]

I think she is very strong but not dumb. There are some things that could be changed though. Slight nerf to her f4 : something around -5 maybe. Her FB needs a slight buff. And last, the only real change I think is nécessaire, amp up kick very minus or even punishable. A corner escaping move should not be 0 on block.

 

[deadeyekiwi]

It's not just f4. F2 is an insane normal that is ALSO 0 on block. It's a high, but seriously when the fuck are you neutral ducking Cassie when she has b2 that has almost the same range, and f2 leads to a KB if you try to mess up the stagger read, and leads to a mid with plus frames. It does have a bit of recovery, but the 1+3 part is not too fast either so it's not super obvious. Once you start respecting f4, she can get plus frames off s3 and that just gives her so much leverage since she's +3. And yeah 111 is super fucking good as an auto shimmy and can be made safe with glow kick which also has quite some pushback.

Cassie is not this complex character, she's the simplest yet most effective footsie character in the entire game having acess to plus on block mids, super fast neutral on block mids, some of the best reach on hitconfirmable strings. Is safe on everything she does with hella pushback on her staggers thus having loads of neat little shimmy strats.

There's a reason why everybody is playing Cassie or has a pocket Cassie. It's not the Sonic effect, it's the 'damn this character super easy to pick up and be succesful with' effect. And yes she requires knowledge of fundamental footsies - thing is, her kit creates shimmy opportunities on block there for kinda setting it up for her without the player having to do much. You literally just f4, walk back as 7 frame jabs wont reach her and voila have your free combo. Such skill requirements must say. She takes no risks in her whiff baiting game - something everyone else except Kabal as to do. Kabal is at least punishable on his mixups and wakeups.

If your explanation for why she is simple take three paragraphs to get across your you've already proven that she isn't simple. I agree a lot of her moves need to be toned down but there is one move that completely defines her gameplay. If you switch to Cassie from another character you will have to relearn match ups because footsie oriented characters are inherently more complex other styles of gameplay.
My other most used character is scarlet, I don't think anyone would argue she's better then cassie but she is a far more easy to learn if you already know how to play the game.
Cassie has a ton solid options but her she simply isn't carrying bad players, which to me is the most important trait of easy characters.
I don't think mk11 has a huge problem with easy characters being over powered, but there are other characters that are worse offenders.

 

[Wigy]

If your explanation for why she is simple take three paragraphs to get across your you've already proven that she isn't simple. I agree a lot of her moves need to be toned down but there is one move that completely defines her gameplay. If you switch to Cassie from another character you will have to relearn match ups because footsie oriented characters are inherently more complex other styles of gameplay.
My other most used character is scarlet, I don't think anyone would argue she's better then cassie but she is a far more easy to learn if you already know how to play the game.
Cassie has a ton solid options but her she simply isn't carrying bad players, which to me is the most important trait of easy characters.
I don't think mk11 has a huge problem with easy characters being over powered, but there are other characters that are worse offenders.

I don't think Nrs has ever made characters as braindead as Liu and erron before.

Liu Kang is a better example. Not S tier but holy shit everyone and their gran can have a pocket Liu Kang.

 

[deadeyekiwi]

I think she is very strong but not dumb. There are some things that could be changed though. Slight nerf to her f4 : something around -5 maybe. Her FB needs a slight buff. And last, the only real change I think is nécessaire, amp up kick very minus or even punishable. A corner escaping move should not be 0 on block.

I agree but I would also make b3 not an AA or some over nerf to it. Her AA game would still be solid, and it would bring her more inline with most of the other characters imo.
Her FB is bad, maybe the worst, but I think fbs across the board need some reworking so I don't think they should buff hers specifically.

 

[Sanjo]

Oh, I didn't answer the question. It's not that I think que is simple. The truth is, I think she is BORING. She is the 2nd character I tried (1st one was Raiden) and I got bored sooo quickly. I'm now a Noob Saibot player. I find him more interesting, more challenging.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

mean streak is pretty hard to play optimal. Not mk9 kabal difficult but definitely harder than the rest of the cast. I only mainee the hard execution characters in nrs games and mean streak doesn‘t feel that much easier

Not saying anything about Kabal players, I'm sure they are very talented but I don't feel there are execution heavy characters in MK11. Most of them seem very effective with just a few buttons and little labbing. For me it seems most of the challenges are just learning MU's and character tech.

Even the cancels in this game are miles easier than X where we just press one button or two to cancel and have a delay before pressing buttons off them when X was instant and required a lot more time in practice. I'd say the hardest thing in MK11 is wave dashing on controller without button mapping.

What is hard to do with Kabal for you? If he is execution heavy like you state I might just pick him up until DLC Drop?

 

[xKMMx]

I don't think she's either of those so I picked explain. She's very strong, Top 3. But she isn't "derp" either. She could use the slightest of tone down, but that's it. Her and Kabal are the ideal top tiers for the game imo. Her tools aren't honest, but she isn't braindead either.

Compare that to Geras, Erron, or Liu where they are "I'm optimal after 10 minutes" type of characters, and you can see the difference. Cassie doesn't fit that mold, but she has everything you need to be top tier.

Honestly I tried Cassie but got off her cause I don't like her enough to try and master some of her higher execution combos.
I feel like anyone that can play her legit is a pretty skilled player.

 

[xKMMx]

Not saying anything about Kabal players, I'm sure they are very talented but I don't feel there are execution heavy characters in MK11. Most of them seem very effective with just a few buttons and little labbing. For me it seems most of the challenges are just learning MU's and character tech.

Even the cancels in this game are miles easier than X where we just press one button or two to cancel and have a delay before pressing buttons off them when X was instant and required a lot more time in practice. I'd say the hardest thing in MK11 is wave dashing on controller without button mapping.

What is hard to do with Kabal for you? If he is execution heavy like you state I might just pick him up until DLC Drop?

There are things in this game I have felt are kinda hard execution wise but I'm not a master of execution. I do feel like the cancels for LK are harder than say the cancels I used to pull off seamlessly in MKX with HQT Predator.

 

[DrFolmer]

If your explanation for why she is simple take three paragraphs to get across your you've already proven that she isn't simple

Sorry I go into details. Let me do a tldr

Best buttons in the game, best frames in the game, moves create free shimmy setups thus she doesnt actually have to risk anything.

Using the 'footsie is complex' excuse is not making her stand out cause everyone has to play that except Sonya. Cassie's kit does in many ways do the footsies for her

 

[NothingPersonal]

She seems like MKX Cassie with zoning to me, except the damage. Not busted, but needs some adjustment.

 

[DrFolmer]

Cassie is like what Jin is now in Tekken. The only thing that's hard is the "OMG I have so many sick moves, which one to choose from omg life is very hartz"

 

[deadeyekiwi]

Sorry I go into details. Let me do a tldr

Best buttons in the game, best frames in the game, moves create free shimmy setups thus she doesnt actually have to risk anything.

Using the 'footsie is complex' excuse is not making her stand out cause everyone has to play that except Sonya. Cassie's kit does in many ways do the footsies for her

You still don't get that good =/= easy. Compare her to a character like erron black who people thought was the best day 1, and many still do, because he requires nearly no execution to do what makes him good.
Cassie on the other hand people thought was a solid mid tier until about a month ago. That's because you need an actual understanding of how the game is played to, and the ability to make the right decision in neutral. You have to make a choice about what combo is optimal in a given situation that a lot characters don't have to make. The variation that Sonicfox uses a lot people didn't think was even viable at launch, but now there's a solid debate that it's better than the other.
Best buttons, and best frames don't mean shit if you aren't already a good player, so no, it doesn't make her easy.

 

[DrFolmer]

That's because you need an actual understanding of how the game is played

You cant play any character without basic understanding - that also applies to HeeHaw. It's a bad rationale. Reborn is also based on footsies - does this make Reborn hard to play? fuck no. Scorpion is loaded with shimmy setups due to the pushback nature on his strings. You have to know footsies to play any character in the game - Also Geras, also Cetrion, also Sonya. Everybody needs to understand the game to play it.

Hell Reborn has to manage ressources to keep himself safe. When to teleport cancel is also about making "the right decision in neutral"

No one is saying good = easy.

You have to make a choice about what combo is optimal in a given situation that a lot characters don't have to make

Who doesnt have to do this? Even Erron has better combo routes b222. Reborn has to make decisions as he has different flows depending on situation - you can full combo punish Scorpion if you roll out of 11 into spear as a combo ender. That doesn't change the fact that Reborn is easy.

Best buttons, and best frames don't mean shit if you aren't already a good player, so no, it doesn't make her easy

This literally applies to everyone in the game. You still havent provided any specifics as to why she is more difficult than most of the cast. Kotal and Johnny are somewhat more difficult to play due to them actually having to apply movement and shimmy to set up whiff punishing. Cassie, Scorpion and HeeHaw have strings that automatically set it all up. You cant get punished ever for throwing out a f4 when you're always 0 or more on block and have spacing thus causing 7 frame jab starters to whiff. She can never be considered hard when it is in fact easy to enforce her gameplan

 

[NaCl man]

Why cant she be busted and more difficult to play then other characters lol

 

[Blewdew]

Not saying anything about Kabal players, I'm sure they are very talented but I don't feel there are execution heavy characters in MK11. Most of them seem very effective with just a few buttons and little labbing. For me it seems most of the challenges are just learning MU's and character tech.

Even the cancels in this game are miles easier than X where we just press one button or two to cancel and have a delay before pressing buttons off them when X was instant and required a lot more time in practice. I'd say the hardest thing in MK11 is wave dashing on controller without button mapping.

What is hard to do with Kabal for you? If he is execution heavy like you state I might just pick him up until DLC Drop?

yeah it's a different kind of difficulty. it's not like mk9 or mkx cancel links, his cancels are fairely easy to do it's more on the hiconfirming side since all you're best starters and pressure tools come from single buttons. f4,f3,f2 are all amazing mids that are plus on block and frame trap into a lot of stuff and can be hitconfirmed which needs some time to practice.
also ia buzzsaw consistency +optimal conversations from non ia buzzsaw's can be difficult. conversations in general are hard to learn because they're pretty situational but you can get some good damage out of it. and ia projectiles are weird in this game because of the shorthop mechanic so I only do them with backjump to get the ground low.
he's not as hard as mk9 or mkx brood mother dvorah for example but he's harder to play than the rest of mk11 characters imo.

 

[deadeyekiwi]

You cant play any character without basic understanding - that also applies to HeeHaw. It's a bad rationale. Reborn is also based on footsies - does this make Reborn hard to play? fuck no. Scorpion is loaded with shimmy setups due to the pushback nature on his strings. You have to know footsies to play any character in the game - Also Geras, also Cetrion, also Sonya. Everybody needs to understand the game to play it.

Hell Reborn has to manage ressources to keep himself safe. When to teleport cancel is also about making "the right decision in neutral"

No one is saying good = easy.


Who doesnt have to do this? Even Erron has better combo routes b222. Reborn has to make decisions as he has different flows depending on situation - you can full combo punish Scorpion if you roll out of 11 into spear as a combo ender. That doesn't change the fact that Reborn is easy.


This literally applies to everyone in the game. You still havent provided any specifics as to why she is more difficult than most of the cast. Kotal and Johnny are somewhat more difficult to play due to them actually having to apply movement and shimmy to set up whiff punishing. Cassie, Scorpion and HeeHaw have strings that automatically set it all up. You cant get punished ever for throwing out a f4 when you're always 0 or more on block and have spacing thus causing 7 frame jab starters to whiff. She can never be considered hard when it is in fact easy to enforce her gameplan

I'm not saying she's the hardest character in the game to play, but easy is still a mis-characterization, she's probably about average difficulty. You can't actually believe the pushback from f4 makes the entire character as easy as reborn scorpion. There are reborn scorpions who don't know how to play neutral so they teleport to avoid it. Cassie doesn't have an option like that, not that she needs, but it is the difference between an easy character and a normal one. All the characters you used as an example of an easy character are way more easy than Cassie.
I don't think anyone one would say she's more difficult then kotal but what does that actually prove. Your talking about a character with only bad options in most situations, no character should be like that. Johnny is interesting because I wouldn't call him easy by any means, but he does have similar tools to Cassie. Would better frames make him easy? He still has to make the approach, he still has to space out his moves. By your logic he's hard now, but better pushback would make him as easy as erron.
She doesn't have a real fb, she has only has 1 viable kb, her meterless damage is average, and her throws are average. These things don't make her harder than other characters but they disqualify her from being outright easy. Her performance is only exceptional at the highest level, easy characters are good at every level including new players.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Any character that keeps cranking out plus frames with regularity is busted in this game. Whoever said she's busted bc she limits your other options, not bc of her options nailed it.
Like I've said in another thread, I feel like she's another character playing her own version of the game. And when you play her, it's always her game you play. Possible to win, yes, but you're going to be the one adjusting and reacting the entire match.

 

[Vslayer]

I'm not saying she's the hardest character in the game to play, but easy is still a mis-characterization, she's probably about average difficulty. You can't actually believe the pushback from f4 makes the entire character as easy as reborn scorpion. There are reborn scorpions who don't know how to play neutral so they teleport to avoid it. Cassie doesn't have an option like that, not that she needs, but it is the difference between an easy character and a normal one. All the characters you used as an example of an easy character are way more easy than Cassie.
I don't think anyone one would say she's more difficult then kotal but what does that actually prove. Your talking about a character with only bad options in most situations, no character should be like that. Johnny is interesting because I wouldn't call him easy by any means, but he does have similar tools to Cassie. Would better frames make him easy? He still has to make the approach, he still has to space out his moves. By your logic he's hard now, but better pushback would make him as easy as erron.
She doesn't have a real fb, she has only has 1 viable kb, her meterless damage is average, and her throws are average. These things don't make her harder than other characters but they disqualify her from being outright easy. Her performance is only exceptional at the highest level, easy characters are good at every level including new players.

I've been maining her since day 1, and here is my totally scrubby assessment of Cage 2.0, because I feel a lot of what you said isn't exactly true.

• Combos are tricky, trickier than most characters, BUT she has a lot of options.
• I always get 2 of her KBs in MOST matches, maybe the D2 one if I have them in the corner a lot. B243 is easy to get if they back up a lot, the range will catch a lot of people off guard. Or if you drop a combo and you continue the string it may get them if they don't delay wake-up
• She has a restand that either grants you a full combo or a throw on a bad read from your opponent
• Her FB works fine, the second they press a button you launch that shit and it'll get them. Also, you can do it after F2, which is safe, so you can do it until it hits them.

Prognosis: deadly if you get her combos down, but you can also just zone your opponent and not have to worry about them at all. So, deadly either way.

 

[Edlaw]

Oh, I didn't answer the question. It's not that I think que is simple. The truth is, I think she is BORING. She is the 2nd character I tried (1st one was Raiden) and I got bored sooo quickly. I'm now a Noob Saibot player. I find him more interesting, more challenging.

Try landing these 2 combos and tell me if it ain't challenging enough for you

 

[Sazbak]

If your explanation for why she is simple take three paragraphs to get across your you've already proven that she isn't simple. I agree a lot of her moves need to be toned down but there is one move that completely defines her gameplay. If you switch to Cassie from another character you will have to relearn match ups because footsie oriented characters are inherently more complex other styles of gameplay.
My other most used character is scarlet, I don't think anyone would argue she's better then cassie but she is a far more easy to learn if you already know how to play the game.
Cassie has a ton solid options but her she simply isn't carrying bad players, which to me is the most important trait of easy characters.
I don't think mk11 has a huge problem with easy characters being over powered, but there are other characters that are worse offenders.

What kind of dumb logic is that? I'm not even saying anything about Cassie but your logic about paragraph numbers are absolutely ludicrous.

Edit: Ok I'll say something about Cassie. Whenever I play against her with my Sub(and I play against her a lot) it feels like i have to put 2x the amount of effort into neutral/footsies than her because of my slowass normals.

 

[deadeyekiwi]

I've been maining her since day 1, and here is my totally scrubby assessment of Cage 2.0, because I feel a lot of what you said isn't exactly true.

• Combos are tricky, trickier than most characters, BUT she has a lot of options.
• I always get 2 of her KBs in MOST matches, maybe the D2 one if I have them in the corner a lot. B243 is easy to get if they back up a lot, the range will catch a lot of people off guard. Or if you drop a combo and you continue the string it may get them if they don't delay wake-up
• She has a restand that either grants you a full combo or a throw on a bad read from your opponent
• Her FB works fine, the second they press a button you launch that shit and it'll get them. Also, you can do it after F2, which is safe, so you can do it until it hits them.

Prognosis: deadly if you get her combos down, but you can also just zone your opponent and not have to worry about them at all. So, deadly either way.

I'm not really counting the d2 kb because everyone has it, and most people use it the same with every character. I've hit her b243 at range like you described before but I've also gotten punished hard from going for it. Not the hardest kb but you need to make a pretty good read in my experience.
Her FB isn't as bad as being non-existent like I said before but it isn't they press a button and you throw that shit out. That point less true about her FB then any other character. It is a lot slower then other fbs so you cant whiff punish as many moves with it, and it tends to get beaten more than other fbs.
She is deadly, and a good players can definitely benefit from her kit, but getting to that point isn't easier then a lot of other characters. I don't think that she's a braindead, easy, gimmicky character that plays the game for you.

 

[deadeyekiwi]

What kind of dumb logic is that? I'm not even saying anything about Cassie but your logic about paragraph numbers are absolutely ludicrous.

Edit: Ok I'll say something about Cassie. Whenever I play against her with my Sub(and I play against her a lot) it feels like i have to put 2x the amount of effort into neutral/footsies than her because of my slowass normals.

My point was that his argument that Cassie is simple was to complex to make that true. I could have said that better, because it wasn't actually paragraph count that was the problem. Which variation sub? I can give you tips.

 

[Sanjo]

Try landing these 2 combos and tell me if it ain't challenging enough for you

You see, newbies or weak players find challenge in combos. Combos are not what define a good player, it's a minimum. Anybody can land combos if they practice enough. Plus, more often than not, the hardest combos are not the optimal ones.
And this game is really not execution heavy, at least for me. Back in SF4, I used To main C.Viper and believe me, her combos and instant cancels are WAY harder than any combo in MK11.
The neutral, footsies, spacing, baiting, whiff punishing... this is where you recognize true skill. And this is where I enjoy the game the most. Landing a perfectly planned whiff punish is much more satisfying to me than landing that big combo I've been practicing, mastered and is just a BnB for me now.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I've been maining her since day 1, and here is my totally scrubby assessment of Cage 2.0, because I feel a lot of what you said isn't exactly true.

• Combos are tricky, trickier than most characters, BUT she has a lot of options.
• I always get 2 of her KBs in MOST matches, maybe the D2 one if I have them in the corner a lot. B243 is easy to get if they back up a lot, the range will catch a lot of people off guard. Or if you drop a combo and you continue the string it may get them if they don't delay wake-up
• She has a restand that either grants you a full combo or a throw on a bad read from your opponent
• Her FB works fine, the second they press a button you launch that shit and it'll get them. Also, you can do it after F2, which is safe, so you can do it until it hits them.

Prognosis: deadly if you get her combos down, but you can also just zone your opponent and not have to worry about them at all. So, deadly either way.

This us all true:
She has decent damage from KB's and amped combos. She has great neutral and buttons and has tools for many things but I don't think she is brain dead like many have said. She doesn't give you free wins. Her gameplay success is dependent on your fundamentals like Footsie, Shimmy, Reads and couterplay as well as execution and meter management. I don't think her Fatal Blow is great being like 30f startup and can't really Wiff punish many moves but its good because it can be used off her F41 for 37%.
Her Wakeup U2 is utter garbage for Flawless Blocking and AAing NJK's it either wiffs or puts them out of reach(not worth both bars). Her U+3 is ok but has shorter range than I'd like. Her gameplay is Staggers, Frame Traps and Shimmy setups which do require fundies.
Take into account I'm saying she isn't easy and I'm a Kotal main.
She is definitely top 5 no doubt but she isn't a win button.
I'm starting to really like Yaas Queen a lot and feel it has better pressure having BLB +10 frame traps and better corner damage.
Compare her to Geras who farts out KB's and looping 50/50's or Baraka who has every tool she has but. Doubles or triPplEs her damage and then some.

My point was she isn't the best at anything she does but we all agree she is high tier, her zoning gets beat by Sonya, Geras, Shang, Cetrion and maybe Scarlet(more even) same with damage, pressure and range. She is a well built Jack of all trades master of none And I think that's fine.