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Pay to win in fighting games??

So with all the commotion around loot boxes in FIFA, it got me thinking about how the Ultimate Team mode is often accused of being pay to win. Players who spend the most money often give themselves a better squad and thus having a stronger squad when playing online (making winning slightly easier).

So in the world of fighting games, has pay to win ever existed or do we imagine it becoming more common in the future (eg paying for cosmetics which make your character stronger)?
 
The closest thing to pay to win in fighters was the gem system in SFxTekken which I don't believe even counts still. That, and whatever your perspective may be regarding DLC characters who turn out to be really strong.

It's not something that can ever happen to a fighting game if it wants to be successful, though, as the game would be rejected outright.
When EA tried it with Battlefront it was a colossal failure and they were forced to remove it.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
In MK11 you can't lab with or against fighters you didn't buy, so you can't learn their frame data, how to flawless block them, which part of the kombo is overhead or low etc. So in that sense MK is a bit pay to win
Or you can just watch YT videos, or look at Raptor's Kombat Akademy and the frame data is there. Also MK11 is relatively simple, you can learn on the fly while playing most of the time.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Pay to win requires the money to give you an advantage, paying for a dlc character has never equalled free wins. Realistically, no character has ever equalled free wins because the second they started we banned them.

Nrs frequently puts out top tier dlc, but the delusion that any dlc character has been so stupid it was free wins, I dunno man like... MAYBE inj1 Scorpion, maybe mkx Tanya, but they were all patched with the quickness,there was never a point when one of those characters wasn't matched in bullshit by someone on the disc and more important, there have been just as many shitty dlc on launch as top tier, and many more who started off not great and were never improved or patched.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Pay to win requires the money to give you an advantage, paying for a dlc character has never equalled free wins. Realistically, no character has ever equalled free wins because the second they started we banned them.

Nrs frequently puts out top tier dlc, but the delusion that any dlc character has been so stupid it was free wins, I dunno man like... MAYBE inj1 Scorpion, maybe mkx Tanya, but they were all patched with the quickness,there was never a point when one of those characters wasn't matched in bullshit by someone on the disc and more important, there have been just as many shitty dlc on launch as top tier, and many more who started off not great and were never improved or patched.
I think the argument isn’t that the DLC characters are so good that if you buy them it’s free wins. But rather, if you don’t buy them, you can’t lab the matchups in training mode. Knowing the MU, imo, is more important than how good a character is.
 
It really is a slippery slope with fighting games. Like from a dev stand point you want the DLC to be viable. And often times in NRS games I'd say its a good bet the DLC is gonna be top tier (if not straight up the best character in the game like Alien, tanya, MM, etc) or at least upper mid tier and strongly viable. I think with MK11's simplistic game design this becomes very apparent with every DLC getting the best treatment when it comes to pokes and movement.

And as long as you can't test those characters in practice mode it kinda does stray into Pay2Win territory imo. You don't get free wins, but you get a significant advantage (which lets be honest that is what Pay2Win means).
 

Zviko

Noob
I don't see how fighting games could ever be pay to win. There's no gear with stats or anything like that in ranked/tournaments that would make characters more powerful.

About the DLCs, you can always find guides and frame data online and you can also ask players for friendly sets. Lab or not, the real matchup experience comes from actually playing against a real person, not a dummy.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
In MK11 you can't lab with or against fighters you didn't buy, so you can't learn their frame data, how to flawless block them, which part of the kombo is overhead or low etc. So in that sense MK is a bit pay to win
It's possible to learn most things via watching footage/reading guides, though muscle memory aspects like flawless block would require reps vs it to deal with it. Unless the online training mode doesn't allow the opponent with said DLC to pick DLC characters, you have various ways to learn these characters without ever buying them.
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Pay to win requires the money to give you an advantage, paying for a dlc character has never equalled free wins. Realistically, no character has ever equalled free wins because the second they started we banned them.

Nrs frequently puts out top tier dlc, but the delusion that any dlc character has been so stupid it was free wins, I dunno man like... MAYBE inj1 Scorpion, maybe mkx Tanya, but they were all patched with the quickness,there was never a point when one of those characters wasn't matched in bullshit by someone on the disc and more important, there have been just as many shitty dlc on launch as top tier, and many more who started off not great and were never improved or patched.
Leroy Smith says hello.
 
Outside of DLC, do you ever see cosmetics/accessories influencing a character in online play? For example, a helmet might increase your defence... which you can grind for or pay for with real money.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
I think the argument isn’t that the DLC characters are so good that if you buy them it’s free wins. But rather, if you don’t buy them, you can’t lab the matchups in training mode. Knowing the MU, imo, is more important than how good a character is.
True, but does this really make DLC pay-to-win?

When that term gets used, it typically means the game lets you buy "wins", by purchasing something that grants a significant, indisputable advantage over players who don't buy it. The worst of the P2W games basically force you to buy-in, because the advantage is so great you generally can't win without it. That's definitely not true for most FGs (including MK11). As others have said, you don't have to buy DLC to learn the MU; it just makes learning the MU easier. And you don't even need extensive MU knowledge to win against most opponents, as long as your fundamentals are strong.

Intent is also important. "P2W player" is almost always meant as an insult: someone who buys in-game advantages because either (1) they're too lazy or impatient to grind for them, or (2) they're more interested in winning than playing fairly. Definitely none of that is true for FGs. You can't grind for DLC even if you wanted to. And (other than a few rare exceptions) most DLC aren't broken and unfair; they're just additional characters for the roster.

For the most part, you buy DLC if you want to play with the character or just want to maximize your MU knowledge. If you choose not to buy them, you're opting to live with a (small) disadvantage. That's your choice; it's not a dig on people who do buy the DLC or the game itself. That's a big difference imo, and why I'd never call FGs P2W.
 

big j gleez

Mains: Not Sure Right Now ...
A new character isn't pay to win. Pay to win would be paying money to get stat boosts or make your character better than someone else. Game expansions are not pay to win.

I do get the point that paying for the characters in order to lab them and use them can give someone an advantage, but it really isn't pay to win. It is a game expansion. Pay to win in fighting games would be paying money for stat boosts and moves in Injustice 2 and playing in a tournament with your $1000 character build. That literally goes on in Madden and Fifa. It's disgusting. I believe Street Fighter X Tekken had some sort of pay to win mechanic with gems and the community quickly spoke out against it. I don't know the full details on it as I didn't really play the game, but I am sure someone here might.
 

NaCl man

Welcome to Akihabara
@trufenix Evo Japan he should have been. 7 out of the top 8 were Leroy. Season 2 was well balanced and imo only needed a few tweaks to the top teirs but season 3 has been a bit of a shit show tbh. All the dlc have been top. But yeah I know what you mean they aren't t4 Jin or t5.0 Steve but in this game you would call him and Fak busted.Can't wait to see what season 4 brings.