Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

[coolwhip]

Because constantly having to relearn stuff out of the blue is *Ding* not fun for a lot of people.

People "re-learn" things far quicker than given credit for. It's always non-NRS players who play multiple games who make a big deal out of "relearning" and I understand it to an extent, since they're playing different games. But please let's stop pretending like every patch means you're basically playing the game for the first time.

It's hilarious hearing guys like Justin Wong complain about "re-learning" when they didn't bother "learning" to begin with. A month into the game he had no idea Raiden had option selects, wasn't doing optimal combos, knew virtually no match-ups, and that was before any patching, save maybe for a damage nerf. And that was when he was streaming MKX virtually 24 hours a day.

 

[coolwhip]

This patch specifically was a good thing. Tanya needed to be normalized, and they did it so quick so everyone has plenty of time to get used to the changes before EVO.

This, in a nutshell. People complaining about this particular patch are doing it on principal because they're against patching in general. Well, most people anyway (I'm sure someone will quote this post and have a different gripe). But this patch was actually pretty great and almost ensures the game looking good for EVO. The nerfs are actually really reasonable as well. There are two weeks still for EVO, and something tells me guys like DJT, Perfect Legend, Foxy and others can figure out what to do with a mere +12 block advantage instead of a +27 block advantage in two weeks. The "re-learning" struggle is real.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

People "re-learn" things far quicker than given credit for. It's always non-NRS players who play multiple games who make a big deal out of "relearning" and I understand it to an extent, since they're playing different games. but please let's stop pretending like every patch means you're basically playing the game for the first time.

It's hilarious hearing guys like Justin Wong complain about "re-learning" when they didn't bother "learning" to begin with. A month into the game he had no idea Raiden had option selects, wasn't doing optimal combos, knew virtually no match-ups, and that was before any patching, save maybe for a damage nerf or two.

I agree but I disagree at the same time.

You're spot on when it comes to Wong. That can't even be disputed, though I honestly believe Justin Wong knows of the OSes, his time is just spent to other games. He knows what they are, did them in Marvel and in USF4 and before and likely even beyond when a new game catches his fancy. I never expected him to last.

However, I play multiple games, and in the case of my characters I never had to re-learn anything, but learn more since Shinnok was always buffed. This last patch only nerfed him ever so slightly I call it more of a fix than a nerf.

But if you're playing D'Vorah and your bug cancels just got adjusted and then again, readjusted... Amazing. I mean, that's if you play any game. You are forced to re-learn those as they were tighter links, then NRS realized making the links tighter does nothing and reverted the change...

https://www.facebook.com/Viscant/posts/879280042148772

I figured I'd post this here too. Viscant argues many points, and plays a game I'd say is way more technical because of how silly it is. But I mean, to us NRS guys this is the norm. But we are not the majority, and that should also be acknowledged.

 

[coolwhip]

You could armor between the string, but you would probably get punished for it. Kung Lao has enough time to block so it's not worth the meter unless you have something really safe (most characters don't).

Most backdashes will still get tagged by it (aside from maybe 2), so that is also not worthwhile.

Way more than two characters could (and still can) backdash out of b321~orbitting hat (but there are ways to blow that up, to be clear). I think the majority can. But you're right, only Cassie Cage could flat out punish it with an armored move. If someone else did it means the Lao players didn't block after inputting the hat (which he should have been doing since the block advantage was so huge you could easily let go when you see your opponent didn't do anything and continue your pressure).

 

[d3v]

From Viscant.
https://www.facebook.com/Viscant/posts/879280042148772

Long gaming related blog post upcoming. If you're not up for that, turn back now.

I'm about 99% sure that Evo will be the last time I play MKX seriously. It's no great loss really, I'm not that good at the game nor do I have a lot of cachet in the NRS community. I don't expect a lot of the serious level players to quit any time soon. There's too much money in the game now and going forward I suspect that NRS will keep pouring money in to keep the game relevant into 2016.

But for me personally I just can't keep up with the (over)patching of the game. Without any sarcasm, when I heard that MKX was patched again this afternoon I took it as a joke. They patched the game literally one week ago, there's no way they would do it again, even if CEO exposed a lot about that current patch. But it's real. They put Tanya down and made some additional minor changes. And hey, if they keep adding little things to Kitana, maybe she'll eventually make a deep tournament run in 2015! Maybe.

It isn't sour grapes. My character (Sonya) is almost surely an upper mid tier character, possibly top tier now. Covert Ops has lost almost nothing since release day. With last week's patch Demolition has gone from just something to style on scrubs with to an actual legitimate character with applications in tournament play. It's only a matter of time before one of the Yomi boys actually sits down and realizes that she has a higher damage potential than CO Sonya and does a little better in the bad matches like vs. Grandmaster Sub. So the overpatching has actually worked in my favor even if I don't like it.

Normally in competitive games you can break them down into a few distinct steps.

1) Learning the basics, understanding what combos into what, what punishes what, etc.

2) Getting a rough approximation of character strength. Character X seems really good, he has a lot of stuff. Character Y seems gimmicky, she has a WHOLE lot of stuff but I'm not sure if it'll work on good players. Character Z is obvious trash, not much of value here.

3) Matchups. This character's tools match up really well with these popular ones. This character is now really important to the overall balance of the game, whether they're top tier themselves or not. This other character has a lot of stuff and a lot of damage but doesn't beat any of the common characters. Even though he has all these tools, he's not that good.

4) Mastery, becoming well versed in multiple tournament characters, understanding most relevant matchups. At this point matching up against individual players is most important. Yeah character A has a bad matchup with character B, but I know that player F jumps waaaay too much and I can beat him consistently.

5) Perfection, self explanatory.

Games that get patched don't always send you back to square one but some of NRS's patches have shown a curious knack for doing just that. At CEO I watched a bunch of dropped combos with Scorpion. His best 1 bar combo was changed, a lot of people--some who got relatively deep into the tournament--were doing the wrong combos fairly often. I saw a metric crapton of Hellfire Scorpion's running face first into armor. I can't fault the players, they had about 48 hours warning, some of them may have already got on the plane before realizing their character was gimped. This is not nearly enough time to make fundamental strategic changes or to get enough casuals to override your muscle memory. Now we're going to see the same thing with Tanya. I'm not sure what her gameplan will look like going forward. I'm not sure NRS cares, quite frankly.

With the overpatching it becomes a whole lot harder to get to the later stages of the game, the ones that are most satisfying to me as a competitive player. Every 2 weeks you get booted down the ladder trying to figure out what's week 1 stuff in other games. What's my optimal punish on this move? What does my damage output look like? Is this an advantage matchup? This kind of stuff is determined relatively early on. Getting to later stages where players try to read each other's tendencies after long periods of careful study? We're not there yet. We fundamentally CANNOT be there yet.

I mean, seriously take a step back and think about this for a second. Do you realize that the game has been fundamentally different at almost every major tournament so far? NWM was won by Summoner Quan. That character is completely different now. I think he's a lot better than some people do; people saying he's a bottom 10 character need to shut up, really. But he's still a fundamentally different character now than he was at NWM. CEO will be remembered as the Tanya tournament. That's gone now. Won't happen at Evo. Canada Cup was won by D'Vorah, a character whose fundamental matchups are not the same at this point. And this has nothing to do with player skill or a player's great intelligence solving tough matchups. The game itself we're playing has changed. Repeatedly! And nobody seems to care!

And what if it wasn't even necessary? What if we would have eventually solved Tanya Kombat X? It seems like Tempest Kung Lao beats her and Grandmaster Sub seems to do somewhat decently. What if there are 5-6 others who fight her well? She wouldn't even need to be nerfed. The competitive balance would advance, players would learn. But it's all hypothetical now. It seems that actually exploring these matchups and conquering roadblocks just isn't a part of the MKX meta.

I don't have the time to keep up with that. I barely have the time to keep up with games like Marvel that are deep into stages 4 and 5 of their lifespan. I just don't have the time or the desire to go back to step 1 every 2 weeks. I don't have the desire to spend hours in training mode and learn new techniques like Scorpion fireball run cancel blockstun traps or Sonya Special Forces block lockdowns when they'll be patched out in 2 weeks time and my hard work will be wasted. It's just not that important to me anymore. And that's a shame. Because I liked MKX. I had fun playing this game even with the awful online and just messing around. I even had some small tournament success with the game. But after Evo I'm done.

I hoped that MKX would be different and that NRS would have learned from their previous mistakes.

I was wrong.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

https://www.facebook.com/Viscant/posts/879280042148772

I would read that if you honestly feel the whole "Adapt or etc..." thing applies. What Viscant just told you is the exact reason why we cannot adapt. We're not given a chance to.

There's still plenty of adapting going on (and plenty left to do). There are a number of characters who have been left very strong, and for whom minor nerfs don't change the overall gameplan.

The developers are still within their right to fix things that are actually issues, though. There's no 'adapting' to fully invincible free 1-frame teleports that grant advantage on block; just like there was no adapting to f23 in 2013 -- it is what it is.

I applaud NRS for jumping on these things rather than letting them kill the game. But next game, maybe they'll actually catch these things in testing and design rather than having to fix obviously broken stuff afterwards.

 

[d3v]

https://www.facebook.com/Viscant/posts/879280042148772

I figured I'd post this here too. Viscant argues many points, and plays a game I'd say is way more technical because of how silly it is. But I mean, to us NRS guys this is the norm. But we are not the majority, and that should also be acknowledged.

The big point that Viscant is arguing is that NRS's patches don't give the game room to grow. Instead of people figuring out that something strong in week 1 actually has counters by the end of the first two months, NRS just patches stuff out and preventing the meta from growing.

The annoying thing really is that it came out in just a week. To quote another fighting game developer (one who actually came from the competitive community).

You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.

 

[THTB]

The annoying thing really is that it came out in just a week. To quote another fighting game developer (one who actually came from the competitive community).

It's very easy to not understand why this patch came about when you aren't aware of how much the last NRS title nearly fell off completely due to how bad EVO grand finals were. They hadn't finished their DLC releases yet when EVO came, so yeah, that was a big deal for them to have to deal with that.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

There's still plenty of adapting going on (and plenty left to do). There are a number of characters who have been left very strong, and for whom minor nerfs don't change the overall gameplan.

The developers are still within their right to fix things that are actually issues, though. There's no 'adapting' to fully invincible free 1-frame teleports that grant advantage on block; just like there was no adapting to f23 in 2013 -- it is what it is.

I applaud NRS for jumping on these things rather than letting them kill the game. But next game, maybe they'll actually catch these things in testing and design rather than having to fix obviously broken stuff afterwards.

See above, to @d3v 's post.

Me and you and everyone on here know how to "adapt" to the patching cycle, but we all know that it's because of a number of things.

1: NRS has a limited amount of time and funds before they must work on their next game.

2: This results in the rapid-fire patches and quick fixes.

3: This effectively eliminates any chance of letting a game establish a meta before the patches.

4: For example, we talk about pre-patch Supes so much, including your post that I quoted. This means, effectively, we have "adapted" to the game not having a meta we like until the last patch

5: How can a community survive theoretically, without the "legs" or "foundation" being set up? I don't think MKX and MK9 are really all that different in terms of us finding stuff out, but maybe that stuff would prove to of been weaker later on instead of it needing a insta-patch?

6: MKX feels rushed in some spots for sure, Shinnok getting as many buffs as he did was only because he was a really awful character and there were murmurs of talk from the testers at scenes that he was the most unfinished. So much for the game going "Gold". Same goes for Kitana!

7. This still gives NRS a bad name. They're already known as "a company that cannot create good netcode." "Look at these constant patches, clearly DLC characters are still too strong in NRS games, just look at Tanya and Batgirl!" When it could be argued Tanya may not of needed her landing frames to be negative. CEO will always exist and we'll point back to this when IGAU2 or MK11 comes out and frown amongst ourselves.

8. The constant whiffing of mids against crouching, blocking opponents across the board that needed to be fixed. This to me is kinda inexcusable.

9. All of these points prove this is not good for the community or overall health of the game, especially when we know the game will die out by next year as NRS usually stops patches and support by October.

10. It will make some members of this community look for other games, or stop people from other scenes or brand new players from coming in. This is the most important note of all, and something that shouldn't be neglected or tossed aside so easily. We have not made it yet compared to the rest of the FGC's communities, ESL is looked and laughed at even by pro players. Maybe it wouldn't of been if it wasn't for the netcode, because ESL sounds amazing on paper. Yes, MK is popular, but not as a competitive fighting game, when only the initial core audience sticks around with it. I'd still argue NRS needs a new way on how to do the following:

DLC, patches, character balance, engine design.

 

[Harlequin969]

I'm just wondering, was there any character that was overwhelmingly nerfed to the point where they weren't viable anymore because of the patches. Or were strong characters just normalized and people had to look for another dominant character? For example KJ stopped being played after normalized despite still being good (as shown by the players), Raiden followed suit followed now by KL and Tanya. D'Vorrah was a very specific case, I only really know of Honey Bee.

So to get back to the beginning, what characters were nerfed to the point that they were so weak they weren't strong anymore versus people not playing them because they were no longer dominant?

 

[juicepouch]

I'm just wondering, was there any character that was overwhelmingly nerfed to the point where they weren't viable anymore because of the patches. Or were strong characters just normalized and people had to look for another dominant character? For example KJ stopped being played after normalized despite still being good (as shown by the players), Raiden followed suit followed now by KL and Tanya. D'Vorrah was a very specific case, I only really know of Honey Bee.

So to get back to the beginning, what characters were nerfed to the point that they were so weak they weren't strong anymore versus people not playing them because they were no longer dominant?

well the obvious answer s scorpion

Went from great to bottom 3 in one patch

 

[d3v]

It's very easy to not understand why this patch came about when you aren't aware of how much the last NRS title nearly fell off completely due to how bad EVO grand finals were. They hadn't finished their DLC releases yet when EVO came, so yeah, that was a big deal for them to have to deal with that.

Of course, it would have been better if the patch wasn't "needed" for reasons like this in the first place.

IMO, the fact that they're so patch happy makes me think that they do get careless with developing stuff.

If maybe they didn't feel the need to keep adding new shit within a 6 month period, or better yet, have a longer term plan (maybe follow SF's example of doing major balance updates every 1 or 2 years) they'd be doing a better job.

 

[Derptile]

I'd rather get free patches than pay $20 for one, and are people really suggesting that they enjoy seeing the game look like shit at majors for months on end rather than getting adjustments that for MKX have been almost 100% reasonable?

Yeah okay.

 

[coolwhip]

I'd rather get free patches than pay $20 for one, and are people really suggesting that they enjoy seeing the game look like shit at majors for months on end rather than getting adjustments that for MKX have been almost 100% reasonable?

Yeah okay.

This.

I really like Ultra David. Per @General M2Dave's criteria, he's a contributor, and he is.

But, after mocking those who defend NRS' patching style on twitter, he actually goes on to claim that the removal of Cyrax's command grab bomb trap is why he quit playing Mortal Kombat 9. I mean, if that's the mind-set and logic we're dealing with, I'd rather take frequent patches any day of the week.

 

[Derptile]

Also IDK what's up with everyone saying the netcode is that bad. Out of the ~800 online matches I've played I don't think I've ever raged at the netcode besides learning how to land Liu's FBRC pressure. You have to understand that all those other FGs that have supposed "godlike" netcode have people that actually care about getting a good online session with WIRED connections, good internet, and most of those games don't have that much data to transmit.

The average online MK player has a wireless connection with a router in a cabinet, maybe 3.00 Mbps upload, and MK requires alot more data than something like Guilty gear. Play with people who have at least a green(3) bar connection and you'll be fine. If I can land 1-2 frame links 80% of the time online then it's not that bad.

Source: A Gears of War player.

 

[Ardul]

Over patching is always good, specially for competitive games. StarCraft is the proof.

 

[The_Tile]

well the obvious answer s scorpion

Went from great to bottom 3 in one patch

 

[M2Dave]

This.

I really like Ultra David. Per @General M2Dave's criteria, he's a contributor, and he is.

But, after mocking those who defend NRS' patching style on twitter, he actually goes on to claim that the removal of Cyrax's command grab bomb trap is why he quit playing Mortal Kombat 9. I mean, if that's the mind-set and logic we're dealing with, I'd rather take frequent patches any day of the week.

To be frank, Ultra David is highly educated in Capcom fighting games but is far less informed in the incessantly changing meta game of NRS fighting games. You almost have to talk to high level players and read TYM on a daily basis to keep up, which I doubt Ultra David does.

As far as the latest patch goes, EVO will feature the biggest Mortal Kombat tournament of all time, arguably with record viewership. NRS cannot risk having another four or five Tanya players in the top 8 doing nothing but teleports and aerial fireballs. The patch has been released to ensure a positive image of the game. This marketing strategy goes beyond any player's personal ambitions or irrelevant opinions about gaming patches.

Also, whoever wins EVO in two weeks will hopefully be forced to do so without block infinite combos or impregnable defense and run away game.

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

For mkx i just want see tant all 50/50 are at least- 7 on block [ where is justice if only half cast is unsafe ? ]. characters with teleports have to wait a little bit after teleport to be able to hit and for tanya, delete air teleport.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I'd rather get free patches than pay $20 for one, and are people really suggesting that they enjoy seeing the game look like shit at majors for months on end rather than getting adjustments that for MKX have been almost 100% reasonable?

Yeah okay.

Just to state: Since 2009 you have never had to pay for just a balance patch in most fighting games. More often than not, it's the inclusion of new modes, story, mechanics in the game, or characters. This is especially true for USF4, GGXRD, Even SFxTK had a free balance patch/update without needing to buy new characters in 2013.

 

[hardguard]

Recently, FF Liu Kang was overpowered for all of 7 or 8 days due to a bug being packaged in the patch. The bug then got fixed in the next patch and now everyone's happy, right?

The problem is that FF Liu Kang documentation is now absolutely fucked and I imagine many other characters, who have presumably been nerfed mildly in recent MKX patches, are in the same boat.

I'm talking about forum posts and youtube videos. After the bug made live, everyone started making "FF Liu Kang NEW 50% COMBOs" posts and making 30-40 minute long youtube videos about a bugged variation.

If anyone needs accurate documentation regarding how to play a certain variation, they'll find a lot of false information on this forum or watch youtube videos just to get extremely frustrated because the information they're trying to learn is completely outdated, thanks to patches. Google is a nightmare for new MKX players or players just trying to learn a new character, because of all the outdated info bloat. And the game hasn't even been out for that long. Imagine this long term, with a few patches each month.

The solution is for NRS to test their patches out (actually: their game) thoroughly before sending them out and to send out as few patches as possible. Patches, for a fighting game, should not be rushed and should not be sent out every week because "lel technology." The public should not be testing out a new meta every week, not be dealing with bugs, and not have to scrap their guides and tutorials because NRS was doing a science experiment on their favorite characters and decided to backtrack in the next patch.

If used right, patches are an amazing tool and the documentation for hotfixed/patched characters and their variations won't need to be heavily compromised as a result. In the long term, what NRS is doing to MKX's game documentation is awful.

You don't develop a fighting game with patches, you polish it.

 

[Derptile]

Too bad he wasn't actually overpowered.

RIP in piece Flame Fist.

 

[Euph0nic]

lol nobody on PC even understands some of these discussions. These are dark times for kombatants.

 

[RyuKazuya]

i really understand your point man but now we have to take a look at nrs´ situtation. Tym alone is filled with threads like " we need buff " or "this needs a nerf or i ll stop playing" " pls patch this " pls patch that". so the community put nrs under huge pressure and they want their game to look great at evo therefore they need to do this. I totally agree to the point where u say that overrushed patches might hurt the game. But we also need to understand that this might be the fault of the impatience mkx community who cry for a buff. I wont say " just adapt or get better" bacause this is also stupid. If a character is bad the char is bad simple as that. Therefore the better char will always be in an advantage.

I understand both sides but we must not forget what situation we put nrs in. These guys try their best for us. Unlike other companys who publish a game and let broken and buggy shit in it nrs trys to help.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

As far as the latest patch goes, EVO will feature the biggest Mortal Kombat tournament of all time, arguably with record viewership. NRS cannot risk having another four or five Tanya players in the top 8 doing nothing but teleports and aerial fireballs. The patch has been released to ensure a positive image of the game. This marketing strategy goes beyond any player's personal ambitions or irrelevant opinions about gaming patches.

This is the crux of the issue, and it's what everyone seems to be missing. We've already seen what "let it rock" brings us at EVO 2013, and now CEO 2015 as well. There is no comparison between some players being annoyed at a patch vs. the entire fighting game world and large media sites like IGN watching as some silly aspect of meta ruins the Top 8 on your game's biggest platform.

We've been there once, and I'm glad we're not going that way again.