Strategy - Erron Black Outlaw Vs Marksman?

[14K]

Hey guys. So i have been eyeballing Erron Black Since he first appeared on the Comic book, but after launch something really made me move away from him, mostly the hat thing and the fact that everyone after the fatal 8 and few days post launch was yelling Outlaw was the best variation and the way to go with erron black. But honestly, i hate Outlaw variation, it doesnt fit my playing style at all. So i started playing around with marksman. Mostly because i see a lot of Nightwing in him ( NW main since day 1 for injustice here ) with the projectile cancels and still have a slight advantage on block, good high low mix ups and incredible damage output...

But heres the kicker after skiming a few threads couple youtube vids and my own few hours in the training mode, i started to question what really makes Outlaw that much better over Marksman?!
I mean i dabbled with Outlaw for a bit, did all the combos and yes i felt he is 100% easier to play than Marksman. Marksman feels a lot heavier on execution and a lot more stressfull to pull certain combos, but in al honestly he feels a lot better than Outlaw to me. I feel he has better options and safer ones as well. Can output more damage than outlaw as far as what iv seen around, and has a better ranged game than outlaw. Now im obviously an online player, and might be missing insight on the more high lvl nuances of both variations, but thats why im here to ask you guys. If a tornament player really dedicated himself to perfecting all the cancels/combos/mixups the character is capable of in Marksman would he really still fall short of outperforming someone in Outlaw?

 

[Eddy Wang]

one i know for sure: can't unload against teleport characters

 

[Pakman]

You actually touched upon this possibly without realising it, but the great thing about Erron is his incredible flexibility and versatility in regards to play styles - so just pick a variation that suits how you want to play him.

I've said this a couple of times now, but Erron doesn't actually lose any core tools when he switches variation, he just gains extra in a specific field. Sand grenade, sand trap, sand slide, caltrops, all his 50-50s, his low starters etc are all retained regardless of variation.

It's not really a matter of better or worse variation either, just one that you are most comfortable with. I play Guile in SF, and from day 1 Gunslinger fit like a glove for me personally (granted it took a while to fully get used to it and I even had my doubts about it early on), but there are also many folk comfortably using Outlaw or Marksman respectively.

 

[Peckapowa]

The cancel combos and ability to do that along with better zoning tools make it preety much better in general. Correct. It's possibly universally his best variation. I'm not sure what niches his either variations have, outside of highlymatchup specific stuff.

I feel the same way about summoner quan and grandmaster sub, it's just universally better.

This will happen in this game. You can win playing unsafe in outlaw, but marksman is better because it's safe, has better mixup potential, and has much stronger keepaway especially against non anti zoners.

Now I'm not sure what gunslinger has to offer over marksman in some mus but from what I've seen that's the case. Bits bound to happen.

 

[14K]

The cancel combos and ability to do that along with better zoning tools make it preety much better in general. Correct. It's possibly universally his best variation. I'm not sure what niches his either variations have, outside of highlymatchup specific stuff.

I feel the same way about summoner quan and grandmaster sub, it's just universally better.

This will happen in this game. You can win playing unsafe in outlaw, but marksman is better because it's safe, has better mixup potential, and has much stronger keepaway especially against non anti zoners.

Now I'm not sure what gunslinger has to offer over marksman in some mus but from what I've seen that's the case. Bits bound to happen.

I play Subzero at my highest lvl possible among the characters i play ofc, and i tried both Cryo and Grandmaster variations, and came out to the conclusion that in the end Grandmaster simply has more tools and those tools prove to be in my opinion more usefull... so in this regard i believe that yes we can call ( with what we know now) that grandmaster is his more usefull variation. But @Pakman actually has a good point, he seems overhaul quite self suficient in all his variations, which i think is a fantastic thing really ( play how you want, not how the MUs dictate a variations power lvl is ) the point that has me questioning this and making this thread so we can discuss something like "what variation is better" is because in forsee that the future will bring about a character selection in tornaments based on how safe this character can be while pressuring an opponent. ill bring this example for now as a mere refence to what i mean to say: SonicFox at this moment seems to be the standard of high performance for Erron Black, not to say there aint someone out there outperforming him, but to my knowledge and iv seen all the Major Events, MKX has been in, he seems to be the best around. And out of all the matchs iv seen him play, he complity steamrolled his opponents, i mean rarely did i see him really strungle to find an anwser for a situation. But what i noticed as well is that he can be quite reckless at times, and while it has been working out for him so far and its paying off. i dont think this will last much longer, with ppl find more and more ways to pressure safely and knowing how to block his pressure intensive strings. So heres why i posed the question in the first place, is the nature of Marksman being mostly safe in all his pressure and having more options, in the end will outweight the more relentless but at times not so safe nature of outlaw?

 

[wa_black]

Maybe people like the option to stack the damage over time.

 

[Groove Heaven]

Outlaw has a better njp, a more rewarding armored move, and a pretty useful poke (f22)

Marksman has zoning options, slightly higher damage, but way higher execution

I don't really see the appeal of gunslinger, but I have not gone deep on that variation or seen any high-level play with it. I can see it working out for some MUs

 

[jokey77]

This thread is a good thing!

I'd like to share my point of view. I have concentrated on EB lately and I have yet to decide which variation I'll focus on. I think, you can theorize all day, but it all comes down to these issues:

Outlaw has these advantages:
+ better options in terms of defense (armored combo starter, NJP)
+ practical hit-confirmable combo-extender ...
+ ... leading to simple >30% meterless combos
+ ... and allowing to make easy use of EB's 50/50

EB has pretty decent meterless damage, yet he has no great pokes. Thus it seems wise to spent your meter on defensive options! That's what Outlaw allows you to do better!

So to make Marksman viable, you need to work around these problems.

Issue #1: "no armored combostarter"
I think this problem can't be solved. As Marksman your only armored moves are bf+4 (more damage, lower hurtbox) and dbf+1 (less reach, yet harder to block/counter).

Issue #2: "no natural hitconfirmable combo-extender"
Maybe "Guncancels" might be the answer. With enough training, we might be able to link our b3/f1-starter into a Guncancel and continue with a combostring that either turns out as a continuous combo or as a guaranteed blockstring.
I am thinking of something like "B33, DF1 Run Cancel, 2112, DB2 ..." (credits go to @Captain Oxygen for his post in the Combo-Thread). No idea if 2122 is guaranteed on block after a (perfect/half-decent) Guncancel... Does anyone know? If so, we might work on an equally safe f1,2-Combo and end up with a character that has a (more or less) safe 50/50 with meterless damage similar to his Outlaw variation.

 

[Captain Oxygen]

You can get gun cancels from most things.
B33, F13, 211, 11, standing 3/4, F2 are the easiest ones that come to my head.
But yeah you can get around 33-38% meterless depending on what you do for the gun cancels, I can hitconfirm them just fine.

The best thing about Outlaw is the armored reversal to get through string gaps, and to disrespect your opponent in neutral. The NJP is also great.
I like to just do 21122 which builds a ton of meter, and if i expect the opponent to poke back after blocking the string I pocket sand them

 

[wsj515]

This thread is a good thing!

I'd like to share my point of view. I have concentrated on EB lately and I have yet to decide which variation I'll focus on. I think, you can theorize all day, but it all comes down to these issues:

Outlaw has these advantages:
+ better options in terms of defense (armored combo starter, NJP)
+ practical hit-confirmable combo-extender ...
+ ... leading to simple >30% meterless combos
+ ... and allowing to make easy use of EB's 50/50

EB has pretty decent meterless damage, yet he has no great pokes. Thus it seems wise to spent your meter on defensive options! That's what Outlaw allows you to do better!

So to make Marksman viable, you need to work around these problems.

Issue #1: "no armored combostarter"
I think this problem can't be solved. As Marksman your only armored moves are bf+4 (more damage, lower hurtbox) and dbf+1 (less reach, yet harder to block/counter).

Issue #2: "no natural hitconfirmable combo-extender"
Maybe "Guncancels" might be the answer. With enough training, we might be able to link our b3/f1-starter into a Guncancel and continue with a combostring that either turns out as a continuous combo or as a guaranteed blockstring.
I am thinking of something like "B33, DF1 Run Cancel, 2112, DB2 ..." (credits go to @Captain Oxygen for his post in the Combo-Thread). No idea if 2122 is guaranteed on block after a (perfect/half-decent) Guncancel... Does anyone know? If so, we might work on an equally safe f1,2-Combo and end up with a character that has a (more or less) safe 50/50 with meterless damage similar to his Outlaw variation.

Issue 2 isn't legitimate. Somewhere in the general discussion or combo thread there is a video of someone (sorry whoever this is, I would credit you if I could find the video) using gun cancels to hit confirm into combos. On block he would cancel the run into a block, and the training dummy Kung Lao's reversal spin would be blocked, so its pretty damn safe. I doubt you are guaranteed a blockstring, but you definitely can't really be punished if you cancel into block correctly.

 

[DanableLector]

Issue 2 isn't legitimate. Somewhere in the general discussion or combo thread there is a video of someone (sorry whoever this is, I would credit you if I could find the video) using gun cancels to hit confirm into combos. On block he would cancel the run into a block, and the training dummy Kung Lao's reversal spin would be blocked, so its pretty damn safe. I doubt you are guaranteed a blockstring, but you definitely can't really be punished if you cancel into block correctly.

Pretty much a guarantee. The gun cancel, if done quickly enough will actually combo (f13, gun cancel, 21122 etc).. So if you just barely miss that window the odds of someone interrupting your pressure is pretty slim.

 

[14K]

Iv been hitting EB quite a lot lately, as for online guncancels even in a good connection it will mostly land you safe pressure, as for guncanceling into combos online it will be very rare, managed to do it maybe 3 4 times out of the hours i played... but we are here mostly to talk bout offline, and offline i think guncancels are the way to go...

Yes Outlaw does provide quite a few on the spot solutions for any situation and the reversal is obviously quite nice. the easier to perform combos i mean i dont think that is relevant considering ppl mastered MK9s Kabal, gun canceling shouldnt be to hard for someone with fast hands. @DanableLector is right the frames to connect a gun cancel combo are pretty slim but if you are going for it and you have performed it before you should be fast enouth to catch your opponent trying to reversal and open him up or just straight out block a reversal. Also you can pretty much do f2.3 gun cancel f2.3 guncancel 11swingshot and be at -2 which is more than safe, that is obviously if none of the f2.3 opened your opponent up...

 

[wsj515]

Pretty much a guarantee. The gun cancel, if done quickly enough will actually combo (f13, gun cancel, 21122 etc).. So if you just barely miss that window the odds of someone interrupting your pressure is pretty slim.

its a gap nonetheless, it will be armored or interrupted with a jab in high level play, especially since standing 2 hits high, and the current existence of the block stun/poke OS.

Also you can pretty much do f2.3 gun cancel f2.3 guncancel 11swingshot and be at -2 which is more than safe, that is obviously if none of the f2.3 opened your opponent up...

This will only be safe online, its more of a risk/reward situation as you can mix up what you do after the gun cancel. Its not completely safe to go into a block string, so if people guess that you will guncancel into block string you will get interrupted pretty quick, you could end up eating an armored launcher into full combo punish. Also, canceling into swingshot can also be interrupted, so be mindful of that as well.

 

[14K]

its a gap nonetheless, it will be armored or interrupted with a jab in high level play, especially since standing 2 hits high.




This will only be safe online, its more of a risk/reward situation as you can mix up what you do after the gun cancel. Its not completely safe to go into a block string, so if people guess that you will guncancel into block string you will get interrupted pretty quick, you could end up eating an armored launcher into full combo punish. Also, canceling into swingshot can also be interrupted, so be mindful of that as well.

that depends on character and string you use to cancel, for instance if i do 23 sling it will beat out subzeros Slide even armored

 

[wsj515]

that depends on character and string you use to cancel, for instance if i do 23 sling it will beat out subzeros Slide even armored

That's just not true, the gap is during the startup of swingshot, the startup on swingshot is so long you don't need armor to interrupt it. 23 also isn't a string, I assume you meant something else.

 

[TKB]

Outlaw has a better njp, a more rewarding armored move, and a pretty useful poke (f22)

Marksman has zoning options, slightly higher damage, but way higher execution

I don't really see the appeal of gunslinger, but I have not gone deep on that variation or seen any high-level play with it. I can see it working out for some MUs

You said everything I was going to say. This is completely right. Marksman has a pretty significant jump in damage over outlaw though.

 

[14K]

lol ok so heres the deal i might have been wrong on the armor part, he can slide armor right by it, but im not wrong on the normal slide... if you do 12 swing (not 23 my bad) it will catch it straight up, and i just tested that right now

 

[TKB]

lol ok so heres the deal i might have been wrong on the armor part, he can slide armor right by it, but im not wrong on the normal slide... if you do 12 swing (not 23 my bad) it will catch it straight up, and i just tested that right now

You don't even need armor, just set Erron black to do f13 into swing shot and try poking yourself in between the string and swing shot. It can be interrupted for a full combo no problem.

 

[14K]

You don't even need armor, just set Erron black to do f13 into swing shot and try poking yourself in between the string and swing shot. It can be interrupted for a full combo no problem.

maybe lol, you guys are the experts on him i literally been toying with him for like 3 days LOL

 

[DanableLector]

@wsj515 I am aware its a gap. To assume it WILL be punished for certain I can't agree with. Is it punishable? Sure... But I don't just throw gun cancel out all match nor do any high level guys. It should be used sparingly. Its just part of the risk/reward that is marksmen. I see more of a concern with rifle swing as far as interruptions go. Just my two cents though. I'm far from a pros level of play.

 

[wsj515]

@wsj515 I am aware its a gap. To assume it WILL be punished for certain I can't agree with. Is it punishable? Sure... But I don't just throw gun cancel out all match nor do any high level guys. It should be used sparingly. Its just part of the risk/reward that is marksmen. I see more of a concern with rifle swing as far as interruptions go. Just my two cents though. I'm far from a pros level of play.

My point is, you should be using gun cancels a lot, you just need to respect the gap if the initial string is blocked. You responded to me by saying its pretty much guaranteed, when it isn't guaranteed at all, just like Erron having a low string and an overhead string doesn't guarantee a combo. It's a mix up opportunity with some measure of risk/reward.

And yes, at the highest level of play where both players know the matchup, you can pretty much guarantee that at some point the opponent will guess right and blow Erron up, cause that's just how statistics works. Also, you can assume that any high level player that knows the matchup will take advantage of the block stun OS, so there's that too.

 

[HeroesNZ]

In MUs that where you get completely out-zoned and need to stick to your opponent like glue when you get in, consider picking Outlaw due to EX Sand Toss being a great tool and constant threat when up-close and on wakeup.

Basically every other time, Marksman's most likely better. Crazy corner damage, hit-confirmable meterless 50/50s (even w/out OSs), great corner carry with EX Swing Shot, hella pushback with Rifle Shot on hit, more midscreen damage etc...

The take-home message however, is to go with whatever's your favourite at the end of the day. They're all pretty good - even Gunslinger, for all the shit I give it. My go-to is Marksman because I like the feel of gun cancels, and I like having more projectiles. Also, he reminds me a lot of Nightwing, just like you lol.

 

[DanableLector]

My point is, you should be using gun cancels a lot, you just need to respect the gap if the initial string is blocked. You responded to me by saying its pretty much guaranteed, when it isn't guaranteed at all, just like Erron having a low string and an overhead string doesn't guarantee a combo. It's a mix up opportunity with some measure of risk/reward.

And yes, at the highest level of play where both players know the matchup, you can pretty much guarantee that at some point the opponent will guess right and blow Erron up, cause that's just how statistics works. Also, you can assume that any high level player that knows the matchup will take advantage of the block stun OS, so there's that too.

I responded to the OP NOT you in regards to the gun cancel and it being guaranteed. I Assumed the guy was referring to online play, and yes. Online, good fucking luck interrupting anything. You responded the opposite, implying it will always get blown up. now you're playing semantics saying "you can pretty much guarantee that at some point the opponent will guess right" duh, thanks for the free tip in statistics. Now I'm no pro in statistics... Just a minor in mathematics, but what happens when high level players guess wrong? Erron blows em up up. Look man, I get it, youre a pro and the rest of us are scrubs, But stop condescending, we are on the same team here.

 

[xGunShow]

I personally enjoy using Marksman the most. Here are a couple of matches messing with the gun cancels:

And a bonus clip for lulz:

Erron Black is Awesome

 

[14K]

@xGunShow cool stuff man, thanks for sharing.

Yeah this is really interesting how versetile marksman can be, it feels like the criative freedom of Marksman outweighs the more accessible nature of Outlaw for me. really enjoying the character...