Online Tournaments Abroad Have Begun to Ban Jacqui

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Unfortunately I don't agree with you on that boxy, I like the footsies and nuetral aspect of the game too much and prefer to be able to focus on things like flawless block, gaps, punishes, frame traps, rather than 50/50 guess games.

That's facts. I don't want the 50/50 machine back, either. I just think that everyone should have the means to be as insane as Jacqui is, in their own way.
Example: Dark Sabbath was pretty much second class compared to Seeing Double because of how impractical it was to cash out the big damage compared to being able to back up all your moves with Shadow Slide. But NOW, the threat of B2 armor break provides the mindgame of making the opponent second-guess everything they do with their defensive bar, and the amount of damage he can get is both practical and massive compared to before. And you have the superior Spirit Ball, and the random variable of Sickle Teleport, which is another move that can force a Breakaway.
If everyone had the relief I've got knowing my main can play the same game as Jacqui in his own way, it would make for way better morale and a much more diverse metagame. I think we'll get there before the year is over.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Anyway, back to the subject at hand.
The longer this argument goes on, the more I realize it'd be better to bump everyone up to Jacqui's level of crazy rather than knock her down.
She wouldn't seem nearly as oppressive if everyone else could be oppressive, too. And we have plenty of new patch builds that have yet to stretch their legs, my main included.

They tried that in MKX, with kind of catastrophic results balance-wise. The truth is that you can't control crazy -- when you start trying to make everyone nuts, some characters are just gonna end up being far more broken than the rest. And it's hard to predict how people will use all those tools.

So MKX didn't really find its footing until MKXL where they dialed the nonsense down and moved toward a more reasonable and consistent core of gameplay.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

They tried that in MKX, with kind of catastrophic results balance-wise. The truth is that you can't control crazy -- when you start trying to make everyone nuts, some characters are just gonna end up being far more broken than the rest. And it's hard to predict how people will use all those tools.

So MKX didn't really find its footing until MKXL where they dialed the nonsense down and moved toward a more reasonable and consistent core of gameplay.

That's also facts. "You can't control crazy" is a good line.
That year between the switch to GGPO and MKXL when stuff started making sense was the best of times.

 

[SonBearku]

MK9: We didnt ban Kabal, Cyrax, Sonya, Kenshi.
MKX: We didnt ban vanilla Raiden, pre-patch Tanya, Alien, LK, JC and HQT Predator.

But yeah, lets ban Jacqui.

SMFH with this community man. Some people really need to check on their definition of broken.

Be careful. Cherny told me nobody cares abou mk9 cyrax and kabal.

 

[Genickus]

Hi. I'm organize Fatality Online Tournament (Tournament without Jacqui) with
ShizzyZzZzZz. I would like to comment situation with ban Jacqui. It's easier than it looks. Tournament was sponsored by ShizzyZzZzZz, who give prize pool $278 (it is lot for Russian online fighting tournaments)

The only requirement is ban Jacqui. ShizzyZzZzZz just doesn't like to watch Jacqui's gameplay and he don’t like that every TOP8 of my tournaments contained multiple Jacquis. This tournament not positioned as a serious eSports event. It does not carry racial or any other subtext

It's just a tournament without Jackie. That all. Why so serious? Thanks for video: Reo, Tom Brady, Rooflemonger, True Under Dawg and others. And Thanks for discussion

Twitter: twitter.com/genickus/status/1270476194408955905

 

[dribirut]

They tried that in MKX, with kind of catastrophic results balance-wise. The truth is that you can't control crazy -- when you start trying to make everyone nuts, some characters are just gonna end up being far more broken than the rest. And it's hard to predict how people will use all those tools.

So MKX didn't really find its footing until MKXL where they dialed the nonsense down and moved toward a more reasonable and consistent core of gameplay.

You can't compare Jacqui level op/wackiness to mkx characters. Mkx characters are still lightyears ahead in terms of broke. I would compare her more to mk11 beta level brokenness. Although not absolutely everyone agrees, I think the general consensus is that this game could definitely use a boost and most people would prefer to have characters buffed instead of characters nerfed.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

You can't compare Jacqui level op/wackiness to mkx characters. Mkx characters are still lightyears ahead in terms of broke. I would compare her more to mk11 beta level brokenness. Although not absolutely everyone agrees, I think the general consensus is that this game could definitely use a boost and most people would prefer to have characters buffed instead of characters nerfed.

Definitely -- MKX is a more extreme example in terms of how bad the top tiers were.. But I'm just pointing out that the concept of balancing towards the top tier almost never works. Balancing toward the middle ends up being the only thing that really results in a balanced game, because when you try to balance towards the top, some characters always end up inadvertently becoming too dominant.

It becomes like chasing your tail, and you never really get anywhere.

 

[Eji1700]

The truth is that you can't control crazy

I mean i get what you're going for but really? GG, KI, MvC at the very least would be strong arguments that there's absolutely ways to handle it. And in most cases its by having good core systems.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I mean i get what you're going for but really? GG, KI, MvC at the very least would be strong arguments that there's absolutely ways to handle it. And in most cases its by having good core systems.

I definitely wouldn't hold up games like MvC as an example of 'balance'. Like, yeah people put up with it because the game was cartoony/wacky and it was fun to watch people get hit by broken stuff, but both MvC2 and 3 are ridiculously unbalanced games.

NRS already tired that 'everything is broken' route and people cried bloody murder.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Many players using all three variations, most notably Sooneo who uses V2 Jacqui, have consistently placed top 8 in Mr. Aquaman's online tournament series. I am not sure if anyone has ever won, but such criterion is invalid in my opinion because Cyrax, for example, did not win a tournament until the end of Mortal Kombat 9's lifespan although he had always been broken, as you already know.

You didn’t think 100% combos were balanced? How DARE you discredit DJT

 

[Eji1700]

I definitely wouldn't hold up games like MvC as an example of 'balance'. Like, yeah people put up with it because the game was cartoony/wacky and it was fun to watch people get hit by broken stuff, but both MvC2 and 3 are ridiculously unbalanced games.

NRS already tired that 'everything is broken' route and people cried bloody murder.

MvC2/3 had more representation in top 8 than many MK games, including 9/X/11. 2 got rough towards the very of it's life, but 3(and Umvc3) had especially good meta's after the initial ironing out. And people "put up" with having a lot of viable characters because it's fun to have a bunch of powerful options and helps make characters feel unique. Doing it right means that if you're willing to put in the work even "low tier" picks can make a showing because almost everyone has real options.

For the record-

MvC2 had at around11 Top 8 characters over its life and at anything less than EVO main stage style level I'd argue there's at least 5 more viable picks. This is by far the "least" balanced of these examples as a lot of the top8's were stacked with the same teams (MSS usually) but even then it allowed a ton of creativity and unique play.

MvC3/UMvC3 has more than I care to count, often in one tournament. Off the top of my head-

Phoenix
Dante
Storm
Wesker
Taskmaster
Morrigan
She Hulk
Wolverine
Akuma
Magneto
Dormammu
MODOK
Zero
Doom
Vergil
Firebrand
Super Skrull
Sentinel
Strange
Spencer

annnd i'm positive i'm missing a few. Further damn near every EVO top 8 had diverse teams, often with people maining more than one team, and often with no two teams being the same. The initial phoenix meta for MvC3 was a problem, but it was way more open than most games ever get after that.

So yeah i don't know what your experience with those games is or what you standard of balance is, but if you're telling me that MvC2, and especially 3, are just something people "put up with" you are out of your mind.

They are wonderful examples of learning from games like MvC2/GG to make generic frameworks that can allow for crazy/wacky/"broken" bullshit. NRS seemed to understand this when they made MK9 (breaker being the bullshit safety valve) and with a little more aggressive balaance (no reason characters like Noob should have literally had their gimmicks just not work, and just a few tweaks to the top like making kabal a little more meter hungry) was damn close to being amazing.

 

[M2Dave]

MK9: We didnt ban Kabal, Cyrax, Sonya, Kenshi.
MKX: We didnt ban vanilla Raiden, pre-patch Tanya, Alien, LK, JC and HQT Predator.

But yeah, lets ban Jacqui.

SMFH with this community man. Some people really need to check on their definition of broken.

I agree with you, but the opposing side is arguing that previous NRS games have varying levels of "broken" which are unrelated to Mortal Kombat 11's toned down "power levels."

Anyway, I am surprised to see that a good chunk of people voted "yes".

How has Cherny brainwashed so many people? LOL.

 

[Tom Brady]

Someone told me Tom had another meltdown on Twitch a couple of hours ago. LOL. Allegedly, he lost a series to Jacqui player and threatened to quit playing the game unless she was normalized in the next patch.

So the usual Tom drama, I guess.

Edit:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270923087618465797

There was no meltdown, I didnt even play any Jacqui. This was a joke between Jueks and myself. Amidst all the "ban Jacqui" movements, Jueks says no one is getting her nerfed. As a JOKE I said I'd make it my lifes goal to get her nerfed to the ground. Immediately after, Jueks and I joked a bit more and it was obvious to everyone watching that we were joking. However, someone makes a clip and put they story they want to it. Then, it comes news on TYM as "someone told me hence it is fact".

No surprise, just the 99999999th time I'm blown up here for something that is completely false. I also never once said she needs to be banned, ever. Yet, TYM makes me one of the faces of the ban Jacqui movement. This site stays blowing up the easiest target which is always me because people can do or say anything they want about me and it's acceptable even when its false..

 

[Tom Brady]

MvC2/3 had more representation in top 8 than many MK games, including 9/X/11. 2 got rough towards the very of it's life, but 3(and Umvc3) had especially good meta's after the initial ironing out. And people "put up" with having a lot of viable characters because it's fun to have a bunch of powerful options and helps make characters feel unique. Doing it right means that if you're willing to put in the work even "low tier" picks can make a showing because almost everyone has real options.

For the record-

MvC2 had at around11 Top 8 characters over its life and at anything less than EVO main stage style level I'd argue there's at least 5 more viable picks. This is by far the "least" balanced of these examples as a lot of the top8's were stacked with the same teams (MSS usually) but even then it allowed a ton of creativity and unique play.

MvC3/UMvC3 has more than I care to count, often in one tournament. Off the top of my head-

Phoenix
Dante
Storm
Wesker
Taskmaster
Morrigan
She Hulk
Wolverine
Akuma
Magneto
Dormammu
MODOK
Zero
Doom
Vergil
Firebrand
Super Skrull
Sentinel
Strange
Spencer

annnd i'm positive i'm missing a few. Further damn near every EVO top 8 had diverse teams, often with people maining more than one team, and often with no two teams being the same. The initial phoenix meta for MvC3 was a problem, but it was way more open than most games ever get after that.

So yeah i don't know what your experience with those games is or what you standard of balance is, but if you're telling me that MvC2, and especially 3, are just something people "put up with" you are out of your mind.

They are wonderful examples of learning from games like MvC2/GG to make generic frameworks that can allow for crazy/wacky/"broken" bullshit. NRS seemed to understand this when they made MK9 (breaker being the bullshit safety valve) and with a little more aggressive balaance (no reason characters like Noob should have literally had their gimmicks just not work, and just a few tweaks to the top like making kabal a little more meter hungry) was damn close to being amazing.

He wasn't there so he's probably looking at from the outside looking in nearly 20 years after. Most (not all) here dismisses it as nothing at that time counts. Just bad games that no one liked but they tolerated. Things not counting is a very common thing here and the official saying of TYM and the community is literally "That does not count".

 

[CrimsonShadow]

He wasn't there so he's probably looking at from the outside looking in nearly 20 years after. Most (not all) here dismisses it as nothing at that time counts. Just bad games that no one liked but they tolerated. Things not counting is a very common thing here and the official saying of TYM and the community is literally "That does not count".

Tom, you can't be serious that people would accept Marvel 2 balance in an NRS game in 2020. You and I both know that's ridiculous.

And you would be one of the primary people complaining about how unfair it was, on every other stream and video.

This is not 20 years ago and standards have changed.

 

[Tom Brady]

There was no meltdown, I didnt even play any Jacqui. This was a joke between Jueks and myself. Amidst all the "ban Jacqui" movements, Jueks says no one is getting her nerfed. As a JOKE I said I'd make it my lifes goal to get her nerfed to the ground. Immediately after, Jueks and I joked a bit more and it was obvious to everyone watching that we were joking. However, someone makes a clip and put they story they want to it. Then, it comes news on TYM as "someone told me hence it is fact".

No surprise, just the 99999999th time I'm blown up here for something that is completely false. I also never once said she needs to be banned, ever. Yet, TYM makes me one of the faces of the ban Jacqui movement. This site stays blowing up the easiest target which is always me because you and do or say anything you want to or about me and it's acceptable even when its fa.

Tom, you can't be serious that people would accept Marvel 2 balance in an NRS game in 2020. You and I both know that's ridiculous.

And you would be one of the primary people complaining about how unfair it was, on every other stream and video.

This is not 20 years ago and standards have changed.

I played many games then and didn't care about balance or complain about it because I played all characters in games and abused everything to win which is why I did win in MANY games. 43 year old me is not 16-32 year old me. Now i'm an old man who is on the side of I just play 1 or 2 characters so I care about balance lol. Back then because I played everyone and abused the broke stuff I would call out complainers. Basically what I am saying is that I am a hypocrite now in my old years and am finally on the other side of it lol.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Banning Jacqui is dumb. Yes she's broken (overpowered) but not mechanically broken. If we allowed Summoner Quan Chi and his hard to block vortex that was basically a touch of death in tournament then Jacqui should be allowed 100%. I mean they even had to implement a rule to prevent overheads and low to connect at the exact same frame because Quan Chi could do that. I'm not talking about MK9 because I started to play it in the last few months before MKX was released so I'm not really sure of what I'm talking about about the crazy stuff the top tiers had.

Some bans were legit in MKX like Kitana's infinite in Mournful, Lao's and Ermac's ability to summon a bar of meter out of Paolo's realm... I mean considering NRS' history of mechanically broken characters, banning a character that is not mechanically broken is unfair and... Well, where do we draw the line ? It's not a good precedent to have. Because there are no established rules that says what is overpowered and what's not.

I was talking about legit bans above, but the characters were breaking established rules of the game : Combo infinite ? Banned. Glitched meter refiling ? Banned. But Jacqui does not break any of those rules, she's just overpowered, and it is not a reason to ban someone. We can't just ban a match up because we don't like it, that's not how it works.

The balance in MK11 is honestly quite good, especially after what we had in MKX, there are still dumb things in the game but there are no characters that just break the rules (even if Fujin was with his infinite but I think it got patched).
I know Jacqui is a pain in the ass to fight against but it is nowhere as painful as facing a top tier in MKX, especially in the pre MKXL patches.

 

[Metzos]

I agree with you, but the opposing side is arguing that previous NRS games have varying levels of "broken" which are unrelated to Mortal Kombat 11's toned down "power levels."

Anyway, I am surprised to see that a good chunk of people voted "yes".

How has Cherny brainwashed so many people? LOL.

Yeah thats why i said that people should really check on their definition of broken.

If you create videos all the time saying "the game has that issue, this character is broken, that character is garbage etc" then you start influencing people around that concept. Its not that hard. People hear streamers alot more than people who actually know what they are talking about.

Unfortunately, most of the NRS community is easily manipulated around those things. We ve seen it numerous times.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Yeah thats why i said that people should really check on their definition of broken.

If you create videos all the time saying "the game has that issue, this character is broken, that character is garbage etc" then you start influencing people around that concept. Its not that hard. People hear streamers alot more than people who actually know what they are talking about.

Unfortunately, most of the NRS community is easily manipulated around those things. We ve seen it numerous times.

Facts. I liked it way better before the Twitch influencer days when you actually had to go out and earn having your opinion taken seriously. The double-edged sword of progress, I suppose.

I wish they'd put MK9 up on PSN/Live so people could experience what broken REALLY looks like. I still have pangs of guilt from being a Cyrax main, and I barely had a clue what I was doing then.

 

[Tom Brady]

Jacqui doesn't break the system, the system breaks itself. Rather than asking for a ban, ppl should ask for the system to be looked at.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Jacqui doesn't break the system, the system breaks itself. Rather than asking for a ban, ppl should ask for the system to be looked at.

I think people need to reexamine what "broken" means

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Jacqui doesn't break the system, the system breaks itself. Rather than asking for a ban, ppl should ask for the system to be looked at.

Okay, that's it. I've had it.

1. People on this forum, me being one of the loudest among them, have been asking for the Breakaway system as a whole to be looked at and revamped literally since the game came out, not only because of the advantage it provides to characters like Upgraded Jacqui, who gets almost all her big damage on the ground, but because of the PAINFULLY inconsistent problems with the inputs/dropping out when you're not trying to and not dropping when you are. But I'm not famous or sponsored by Twitch, so who cares what my non-clique ass has to say. I've only been trying to draw attention to how counterintuitive the Breakaway system is since it's conception.
2. I don't know how this debate went from Tekken Master and ArnKratos being the guys who set this entire debate in motion, somehow turned into YOU being made the face of banning Jacqui, but here we are. Another important issue turned into Brady whining about being persecuted while the two guys who started this debate are literally on the other side of the world. Cool.
3. I would bet my PS4, my bass guitar, and every pair of pants that I own that you wouldn't have the slightest problem with this if Sub-Zero had a decent armor break.

You want to be mad about people on TYM calling you out? Be mad at me. I implore you. Because over YEARS of listening to you go on and on and fucking on, through rant and rave and uninstallation and reinstallation and scandal after outburst after scandal, about how these people and those people are out to get you and discredit your good name? Guess what? The ONLY ONE who's ever been out to get you, IS ME! And the only one doing anything to discredit you or your name IS YOU.

Also, way to once again go out of your way to try and act like I don't fucking exist, while simultaneously hijacking ANOTHER important subject of discussion and making it a pulpit to preach from while having nothing to contribute to the debate outside of scatterbrained saltiness that you struck out in the armor break lottery.

Everyone, I am genuinely sorry for whatever explosion of this thread this outburst causes. I really am. I honestly hope there's no explosion at all and this just blows by in the wind without a word.
I tried REAL hard to hold my tounge, but it really, REALLY needs to be said, and it's been a LONG time coming. I don't want the rub or the attaboy, and I'm not saying it for the luls or the clicks or the attention. I'm saying it as someone who wants the MK/NRS community to one day have a reputation worth taking more seriously, because it's a home to me and also my 11-year old, who is an avid Mileena player and is one day going to be part of the machine like I am, and as someone who REALLY doesn't appreciate being treated like a fucking ghost by someone they once had the utmost respect and admiration for even when they were at their worst, but has to come here them go on for twelve minutes at a time taking shots at people who aren't paying attention anymore.

You aren't a goddamn martyr or a prophet, you aren't telling us anything we didn't already know, and I am TIRED TO DEATH of this cyclical "everyone's out to get me" paranoid whining, and the little "Certain people...y'know what, nevermind" digs. If you're going to be a professional, BE A PROFESSIONAL AND GET THE HELL OVER YOURSELF.

NOW YOU CAN GO BACK TO IGNORING ME.
I wish you all the best in life.
#DontBanJacqui

 

[Trustful_Whale]

the only one doing anything to discredit you or your name IS YOU.

The accuracy of this statement scored a krushing blow.

 

[623HS]

I mean i get what you're going for but really? GG, KI, MvC at the very least would be strong arguments that there's absolutely ways to handle it. And in most cases its by having good core systems.

Even if gg universal mechanics allow for lots of broken stuff and we still ended up with one of the most balanced fg in +r, the game would be pretty broken if everyone was on the level of top tiers lmao. Imagine if everyone has zappa low profile run, 1-10f invul 11f backdash, fullscreen endless pressure and mixup, sometimes 4f massive reversal, unblockable setup, kinda-infinite, and infinite blockstring etc. (though he beats only one character 7-3 despite all of those).

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

The accuracy of this statement scored a krushing blow.

<3 much obliged, Whale of Trust.

I wish I wasn't terrible with frame data math so I could figure out a sane way to adjust her normals. In her defense, her variations are all pretty unique and cool, and I don't think they're the source of what makes her a mess; it's the Fuck Neutrality oppressive strength of her base moveset. There's no sane reason for her to have so many options before you even take into account what variation she's using. Plus, Upgraded is a pain in the ass to play right, and First Round KO is unique as hell and I respect it. Leave her builds alone, don't charge meter for KO cancels, but they have to stop letting this complete disregard for neutrality fly and get the base set in check.

On the bright side, I finally go back to post-pandemic work Monday, which means I'll be able to get my new pad and upgrade (Ha, Jacqui humor) our internet so I can be hardwired again, because the only modem we have is on the opposite side of the apartment, and the FIRST thing I'm doing is buddying up with middle-of-the-pack-like-me Jacqui players so I can figure out if Dark Sabbath VS Upgraded is as close to even in reality as I think it is in my head. I have been out of the loop for a long time, but now I'm back in, and I am here to get bodied and throw Spirit Balls until I hate myself for not being able to let this game go. Any of you who actually play Jacqui like your life depends on it, I am your friend now, and as much as this character makes me question the fabric of NRS' reality, I don't want to see her get Exodia Obliterated, either. If Noob was the unjustly OP subject of this debate, I sure as fuck wouldn't want him to be rendered obsolete.