General/Other - Fisticuffs One year of Speedbag: The future of Fisticuffs Cage

[ismael4790]

So here we are, one year has passed since mkx was launched. Throughout this year, the number of Fisticuffs Cage players has been decreasing. Now, the variation is almost abandoned, easily being bottom 5 in the game. I don't blame those who abandoned. Nobody likes to lose or to be forced to play at 200% to win or get even. If you are a competitive player, picking Fisticuffs is just a stupid decision, that's a fact. Loyalty does not pay off.

Many people ask me why I still play him. Obviously it's not because it puts me in a good situation, almost every matchup in the game is a struggle. The reason is I think Fisticuffs is the variation that better keeps the true spirit of mk9 Cage. His game relies on staggers and chip damage, no cancels, no strange mimics (all respect to SD XD). Just get in the opponent's face and pressure with your "fantastic" tools. Speedbag, in some sense, was a substitute of mk9 Cage's f3. Or it was until it was nerfed.

Last month Fisticuffs got some changes, but sadly they didn't solve at all the core of his problems.
Without more changes, Fisticuffs future will be the same as its present: bleak.

I encourage all Cage players, or even non Cage players (that know the variation to some extent if possible) to give their ideas to improve the variation for summer patch, which could be the final mkx patch. The last chance for Fisticuffs Cage. Here are my suggestions.

• When you see Flame Fist Liu Kang, or Cutthroat Kano, you can't help to ask why Fisticuffs Fistbump move, BF1, is so bad. It has 40 frames of recovery, and it doesn't even have an EX version. All strings canceled into it are minus on block or even punishable, except 4~BF1, the safest, which forces you to block anyway unless you want to try luck with armor. Those variations I mentioned have great uses of their bumps, for example, extending combos or giving them + frames on block to work with. Fisticuffs needs this. Imagine not having to commit to nutpunch after 113, or be forced to do 113~exforceball to be safe. Things like 113~exBF1,run 113~nutpunch being a combo would help a lot this variation.

• Fistbump damage increase. Right now, while enabled, fistbump only increases damage from speedbag. Why not from other punch attacks too? It works like this in FF Liu Kang.

• Speedbag random whiffing issues should be solved. There are no words to explain the frustration when the opponent gets a poke where he/she shouldn't be able to get it. More details and complete analysis of these whiffing issues here: http://testyourmight.com/threads/speedbag-on-block-is-inconsistent.58608/

• Speedbag frames. Best scenario would be simply prepatch (9 startup, 0 on block for even hits and -3 on block for odd hits). But if for some reason this seems too much (even when almost all characters got pokes buffed through this year) just make it 9 startup, -3 (or -2) on block for odd hits, and -1 for even ones. Different frames on block for even and odd hits allowed the player to mess up with the opponent reactions, so that should definitely come back.

• New string allowing to hit confirm f3 into combo. Right now, his options are f34 (12%), spending a bar with f3~exforceball, or f3~nutpunch/exnutpunch, not hitconfirmable and full punishable on block.

I could suggest other things, like b2 being cancelable into specials again (this was a collateral nerf from stunt double), or BF1 being 2in1 cancelable, or even having a new string with a low (some characters have one variation with 50/50s, Cage has none. His weakest variation could be the candidate to get them) but in my opinion the points above are all the variation needs to start being viable. He would be mid tier if these changes happened.

Discuss, and keep speedbag going!

@Mikemetroid @YOMI DJT @Frosted 57 @IrishMantis @LeftOverShark @Asodimazze @YOMI REO @RyuKazuya @C88 Zombieekiler @Wigy @kelevra @coconutshrimp and any player that wants to give ideas.

 

[Lokheit]

I think Fisticuffs should've worked like FF Liu Kang being able to use the buff mid combo (or at least like HT Jaquie when it comes to the damage part), empowering overal fist damage and also fireballs (plus nutpunch... I mean, that's a punch attack... in the nuts...).

Liu Kang has a pressure RC variation as well as a "mid combo fist empowering buff" variation so you would think Johnny could work in a similar way with his main tools.

 

[Toodrunk2combo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but fist bump buffs more than speedbag. I know it changes his throw to a more damaging one, and I believe it gives his flip kick and maybe one other move a slight increase in damage.

 

[Tweedy]

Fisticuffs, or even variationless Cage, is in the top half of the cast. Please stop.

Edit: What the character gains is without a doubt bottom 5, however, it's still Johnny Cage.

 

[coconutshrimp]

Honestly I think you have all the necessary buffs for Fisticuffs, but as you said the chances of Fisticuffs getting buffs are slim to none and even less so with the witch hunt on Johnny.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

I think doing string xx EX Fist Bump should make it plus on block enough to jail into some strings and it should combo if a string is combo'd into ex fist bump. This is coming from a non fisticuffs player. I doubt they will buff him since i've heard this game will not be patched except for hotfixes. I feel bad for someone like you who's sticked to fisticuffs who never got his buffs.

Tl;dr
Buff normal and MB fistbump recovery.

 

[ismael4790]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but fist bump buffs more than speedbag. I know it changes his throw to a more damaging one, and I believe it gives his flip kick and maybe one other move a slight increase in damage.

Flipkick does the same damage with Fistbump enabled. Throw becomes the red mode throw, yes, which is cool. But you know, tech window has been increased.
Also general chip damage has been reduced in the game, which has toned down fistbump chip increase.
So it seems Fisticuffs can't get buffs without getting nerfs xD

Honestly I think you have all the necessary buffs for Fisticuffs, but as you said the chances of Fisticuffs getting buffs are slim to none and even less so with the witch hunt on Johnny.

Actually, I think as A-List is probably going to be nerfed, and Stunt Double slightly nerfed (to remove the htb), Fisticuffs might have the chance to get something in compensation.

I think doing string xx EX Fist Bump should make it plus on block enough to jail into some strings and it should combo if a string is combo'd into ex fist bump. This is coming from a non fisticuffs player. I doubt they will buff him since i've heard this game will not be except for hotfixes. I feel bad for someone like you who's sticked to fisticuffs who never got his buffs.

That's exactly how I think it should work, totally agree.

Fisticuffs, or even variationless Cage, is in the top half of the cast. Please stop.

Edit: What the character gains is without a doubt bottom 5, however, it's still Johnny Cage.

Dont let the name "Johnny Cage" deceive you. Fisticuffs does not take any advantage from many of Cage good tools. F3 is totally wasted in this variation. 113 is also pretty bad.

 

[REO]

I don't think Fisticuffs is that bad. Yeah, it can seem bad if you compare it to broken A-List or Stunt Double, but it's definitely not garbage.

I think it's around mid tier. It's a really solid variation in the right hands and at the perfect balance every character should be aimed for, IMO.

 

[ismael4790]

I don't think Fisticuffs is that bad. Yeah, it can seem bad if you compare it to broken A-List or Stunt Double, but it's definitely not garbage.

I think it's around mid tier. It's a really solid variation in the right hands and at the perfect balance every character should be aimed for, IMO.

I would like to think the same, but it's hard when even his distinctive move has blatant design flaws, and other characters of similar nature do the work much better than him. Maybe being too honest is the same than being bad.

I want to see those right hands in action, nobody is more anxious to see him work than me xD

 

[Eldriken]

I don't think Fisticuffs is that bad. Yeah, it can seem bad if you compare it to broken A-List or Stunt Double, but it's definitely not garbage.

I think it's around mid tier. It's a really solid variation in the right hands and at the perfect balance every character should be aimed for, IMO.

Agreed.

 

[Addhad]

Fisticuffs lives trust me

 

[GAV]

Bring back Pre-Patch Fisticuffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dennycascade]

Make fisticuffs forceballs a mid at all points in the arc and make fistbump cancelable into specials. This would help him out greatly and still be very balanced because he has no safe specials without spending meter. So in the neutral he could do fistbump into forceball and start his zoning with mid projectiles, forcing the opponent to block and take some chip before they can get in on him, which would give him quite a legit keepaway game. Then up close he could do certain strings on block into fistbump 2in1 canceled into EX forceball for a safe chip buff and pressure leaving him at +4, at the cost of meter of course. He'd also have much easier hit confirms with things like f3 fistbump into EX nutpunch. That and the fixes to his speed bag whiff problems would make him such a legit variation to be feared. He still wouldn't be on A-list's level but at least on par with Stunt Double and easily a viable choice. Johnny would finally have three variations

 

[16 Bit]

 

[Eldriken]

It would have been funnier if it was Fistifcuffs beating the dead horse.

 

[ismael4790]

Thanks for the confirmation!

 

[Tundra81]

Bring back Pre-Patch Fisticuffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love this song!! Stuck in my head the rest of the night.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Imo he's not bad as much as he is outclassed and redundant compared to Johnny Cage's other two variations. Even if it was pre patch status it would still be likely his worst variation. Definitely not bottom 5 but the changes in the OP are actually pretty fair if anyone actually bothered to read them.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Speedbag does not need to be sped up. It would be one of the most ridiculous stagger strings that most characters couldn't do anything about. Lots of back-dashes are mediocre at best so they have to rely on armor. Speedbag already shreds most armor moves so making it even faster and safer would mean a pseudo-block infinite if he gets you in the corner.

 

[ismael4790]

Imo he's not bad as much as he is outclassed and redundant compared to Johnny Cage's other two variations. Even if it was pre patch status it would still be likely his worst variation. Definitely not bottom 5 but the changes in the OP are actually pretty fair if anyone actually bothered to read them.

Thanks man. I knew before posting that many people wouldn't even take 1 minute to read them. This thread is for all the rest xD

Speedbag does not need to be sped up. It would be one of the most ridiculous stagger strings that most characters couldn't do anything about. Lots of back-dashes are mediocre at best so they have to rely on armor. Speedbag already shreds most armor moves so making it even faster and safer would mean a pseudo-block infinite if he gets you in the corner.

With the general buffing pokes have received, this would actually not happen. The Quan Chi or Takeda situation vs Fisticuffs would not be at all as bad as it was, for example.
Only characters with 9 frame pokes as Tremor could have problems, but those pokes need to get better anyway.

 

[REO]

Imo he's not bad as much as he is outclassed and redundant compared to Johnny Cage's other two variations. Even if it was pre patch status it would still be likely his worst variation. Definitely not bottom 5 but the changes in the OP are actually pretty fair if anyone actually bothered to read them.

Pre-normalized Fisticuffs was more broken than pre-patch Kobu Jutsu. It was literally a pseudo block infinite on more than half the cast and extremely overpowering. Trying to guess out was almost equivalent to tossing and calling a dice roll out, and if you rolled wrong, you got full combo'd and reset back into the same situation. It was 99x worse in the corner.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Pre-normalized Fisticuffs was more broken than pre-patch Kobu Jutsu. It was literally a pseudo block infinite on more than half the cast and extremely overpowering. Trying to guess out was almost equivalent to tossing and calling a dice roll out, and if you rolled wrong, you got full combo'd and reset back into the same situation. It was 99x worse in the corner.

Exactly my point.

 

[ismael4790]

Pre-normalized Fisticuffs was more broken than pre-patch Kobu Jutsu. It was literally a pseudo block infinite on more than half the cast and extremely overpowering. Trying to guess out was almost equivalent to tossing and calling a dice roll out, and if you rolled wrong, you got full combo'd and reset back into the same situation. It was 99x worse in the corner.

Many characters had way worse pokes back then.
Classfying the characters attending to their fastest poke in the current state of the game, we see this (correct me if I made any mistake):

6: bo, ermac, goro, jason, kotal, leatherface, mileena, quan chi, scorpion, shinnok, kitana
7: alien, cassie, erron, ferra, jacqui, jax, johnny, kano, kenshi, kung jin, predator, raiden, reptile, sonya, takeda, tanya
8: dvorah, kung lao
9: liu kang, sub-zero, tremor.

Only 5 characters could have some problems escaping a, for example, 9 frame startup (and -3 on block odd hits, -1 on block even hits ) speedbag stagger now.
Buff 1 frame on one poke to those 6 chars, and the move would give 0 problems.
Also, speedbag is not as Mileena's b12, where she has scary options after, she can go for a low or an overhead, and pushes the enemy to an unconfortable range when blocked, that has to be respected. Cage faster moves after a speedbag stagger that lead to combo would be b1 (9f), standing 1 (9f) , standing 2 (9f), and he stays in poke range. When one sees speedbag stop, just has to poke (or backdash).

Honestly I catch a lot of people that don't know the matchup with the speedbag. But people that plays me frequently has adapted perfectly to the move and I think with that frame change I propose it would be a fair move.

Apart from this, my main concern about the variation is the wasted potential fn fistbump and nonexistent exversion.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Pre-normalized Fisticuffs was more broken than pre-patch Kobu Jutsu. It was literally a pseudo block infinite on more than half the cast and extremely overpowering. Trying to guess out was almost equivalent to tossing and calling a dice roll out, and if you rolled wrong, you got full combo'd and reset back into the same situation. It was 99x worse in the corner.

Hmm guess I missed that lol

 

[The Highlander]

Many characters had way worse pokes back then.
Classfying the characters attending to their fastest poke in the current state of the game, we see this (correct me if I made any mistake):

6: bo, ermac, goro, jason, kotal, leatherface, mileena, quan chi, scorpion, shinnok
7: alien, cassie, erron, ferra, jacqui, jax, johnny, kano, kenshi, kung jin, predator, raiden, reptile, sonya, takeda, tanya
8: dvorah, kitana, kung lao
9: liu kang, sub-zero, tremor.

Only 6 characters could have some problems escaping a, for example, 9 frame startup (and -3 on block odd hits, -1 on block even hits ) speedbag stagger now.
Buff 1 frame on one poke to those 6 chars, and the move would give 0 problems.
Also, speedbag is not as Mileena's b12, where she has scary options after, she can go for a low or an overhead, and pushes the enemy to an unconfortable range when blocked, that has to be respected. Cage faster moves after a speedbag stagger that lead to combo would be b1 (9f), standing 1 (9f) , standing 2 (9f), and he stays in poke range. When one sees speedbag stop, just has to poke (or backdash).

Honestly I catch a lot of people that don't know the matchup with the speedbag. But people that plays me frequently has adapted perfectly to the move and I think with that frame change I propose it would be a fair move.

Apart from this, my main concern about the variation is the wasted potential fn fistbump and nonexistent exversion.

Just because a character has a 1 frame gap to escape doesn't make it 'no problem'.
You have a character that has one mid tier variation and two potentially top five variations... Asking for buffs is a slap in the face to characters that barely have one viable variation.