On Pig, REO, Tom Brady, and Tier Lists

[CrimsonShadow]

From the entire discussion about tiers, there are several points we can take away, if we're being realistic:

1) REO - People will never agree

I think this hits the nail on the head. Different players have different ways of using characters, and each fighting style or set of tech changes the matchups vs. other characters. We're watching characters continue to evolve before our eyes with every tournament, and there are lesser-played characters that still haven't reached their full potential.

2) Pig of the Hut - Tiers don't matter anyway

I'd put it like this: matchups do matter; and so to a certain extent, tiers also matter in a *general sense*. It's simple math that the more unfavorable matchups someone has against commonly-played characters, the harder it is for your to put together the streak of matches required to come out on top in a tournament situation.

Put another way: a Kano player isn't likely to win a tournament even if he's equally skilled as the other players.

However with that said.. It's far from an exact science, and it doesn't matter nearly as much as people would claim. The fact that certain players have almost single-handedly moved specific characters up the tier lists is proof enough of that.

3) Tom Brady - We should all be able to agree on something

I applaud Tom for trying to find a consensus, and for moving to base the tiers on actual matchup math rather than random speculation. But, the math for a lot of matchups is pretty inexact, and will continue to change as the game gets played. When people aren't sure of a matchup, they just say "5-5" or "maybe X", which tells you that we're not at the point where we can claim to have a comprehensive set of data on matchups in this game.

Especially once Skarlet, Kenshi, Jade, Rain, and Freddy, are brought into the mix, we simply don't have enough tournament-level data to authoritatively state what their matchups are against every single character.

So why force it?

Lets all agree that this is a fuzzy science, and a moving target. And that having some god-tier-list doesn't really improve our community; but rather it's the discoveries and discussions that re-evaluate or CHANGE matchups that are the most productive.

Thoughts?

 

[TomlulsBrady]

Pig is so full of shit when he says "tiers don't matter". The man has like 4 backups just to cover different MUs obviously he factors in tier list, and characters. Its completely hypocritical when he says he only values the player and not the character.

 

[Seapeople]

So why force it?

Lets all agree that this is a fuzzy science, and a moving target. And that having some god-tier-list doesn't really improve our community; but rather it's the discoveries and discussions that re-evaluate or CHANGE matchups that are the most productive.

We do have a god-tier-list that everyone can agree on...it's Kabal

 

[Death]

Whoever says the character doesnt matter and its all the player is lying and delusional. At the highest possible level it all comes down to the character. Characters matter and people need to stop kidding themselves. You think the best players in the world would be winning tournaments if they dropped their main and mained sheeva or some shit character. No they wouldnt. MU charts and tier lists matter but at this point every1 is too butthurt and downplays their mains cuz they want credit rather than the character. All these factors is the reason why well never see a set in stone tier list.

 

[Enenra]

Tom Brady's tier list is immaculate, I applaud what he is doing.

 

[TotteryManx]

Characters people play do matter because some lack tools. Baraka vs. Kenshi is a horrible match up for raka. Kenshi has all the tools to keep him at bay. EX blade charge? GTFO.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

Like I said on the show.


One of Two things.

1. If you want to play to win, pick up up a good character.

2. If you play to have fun like me, play who you want.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Everyone wants to pick up jax for reo's kabal

Yea u guys have fun w that cause u aren't CD Jr

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

Whoever says the character doesnt matter and its all the player is lying and delusional. At the highest possible level it all comes down to the character. Characters matter and people need to stop kidding themselves. You think the best players in the world would be winning tournaments if they dropped their main and mained sheeva or some shit character. No they wouldnt. MU charts and tier lists matter but at this point every1 is too butthurt and downplays their mains cuz they want credit rather than the character. All these factors is the reason why well never see a set in stone tier list.

We're in agreement here. This "80% player 20% character" bullshit is just that. Bullshit.
While the player behind the control is still important of course, some characters can and will take a player further than they might get otherwise.

 

[Tim Static]

Everyone wants to pick up jax for reo's kabal

Yea u guys have fun w that cause u aren't CD Jr

DING!

We're in agreement here. This "80% player 20% character" bullshit is just that. Bullshit.
While the player behind the control is still important of course, some characters can and will take a player further than they might get otherwise.

You've still missed it by a longshot. See above.

 

[TheTetraSpirit]

You might not beat everyone, but if nothing else, I bet you'd fair better.
Like I said, the player is still important, but the character will also play a huge role.

 

[B W1zZ]

Matchups are good as a general reference but in my opinion when two players play against each other the matchup itself is more dependent on the players and how they adapt to one another. For example Sonya Raiden is generally considered a 6-4 but i know if I play against my opponent properly that could easily turn into a 5-5. A lot of this is based on peoples own personal experiences against players that play one way whereas another player of that character might play a completely different style that changes the matchup. There's way too much downplaying characters and the whole"X character beats Y character" or "this character sucks" mentality etc.

In short treat tier lists/matchup charts as a general reference and not the end all be all of the game itself, in my opinion. Half the time people think they have authority to say "oh this character sucks" or are able to accurately judge exactly what number a character is tier wise, most notably the top 10-15 area. I just think all of these arguments over tier placements and matchup numbers are getting kind of old.

Whoever says the character doesnt matter and its all the player is lying and delusional. At the highest possible level it all comes down to the character. Characters matter and people need to stop kidding themselves. You think the best players in the world would be winning tournaments if they dropped their main and mained sheeva or some shit character. No they wouldnt. MU charts and tier lists matter but at this point every1 is too butthurt and downplays their mains cuz they want credit rather than the character. All these factors is the reason why well never see a set in stone tier list.

The character does matter to an extent, but factoring in "highest level of play", in many matchups, has a lot to do with the players behind those characters. Also I don't think anyone should really be using the term "highest level" since, although there are many high level players, I doubt anyone has played at the absolute highest possible level at this point....some just play at a higher level than others.

 

[AJ_Sidhu]

Pig is so full of shit when he says "tiers don't matter". The man has like 4 backups just to cover different MUs obviously he factors in tier list, and characters. Its completely hypocritical when he says he only values the player and not the character.

I've also noticed Pig really likes to stress "player" skill level, how tier lists are irrelevant, and how people should "just play".

With that mentality and his supposed skill level, it is a bit hypocritical to go from CSZ and Mileena to Kenshi, Kabal, and Jax.

Just a bit

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I've also noticed Pig really likes to stress "player" skill level, how tier lists are irrelevant, and how people should "just play".

With that mentality and his supposed skill level, it is a bit hypocritical to go from CSZ and Mileena to Kenshi, Kabal, and Jax.

Just a bit

I play the game to play the game

I play most of all cast

and never value your opinion of me

 

[AC1984]

MK9 looks like rock paper scissors to me :-S

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Matchups are good as a general reference but in my opinion when two players play against each other the matchup itself is more dependent on the players and how they adapt to one another. For example Sonya Raiden is generally considered a 6-4 but i know if I play against my opponent properly that could easily turn into a 5-5. A lot of this is based on peoples own personal experiences against players that play one way whereas another player of that character might play a completely different style that changes the matchup. There's way too much downplaying characters and the whole"X character beats Y character" or "this character sucks" mentality etc.

In short treat tier lists/matchup charts as a general reference and not the end all be all of the game itself, in my opinion. Half the time people think they have authority to say "oh this character sucks" or are able to accurately judge exactly what number a character is tier wise, most notably the top 10-15 area. I just think all of these arguments over tier placements and matchup numbers are getting kind of old.



The character does matter to an extent, but factoring in "highest level of play", in many matchups, has a lot to do with the players behind those characters. Also I don't think anyone should really be using the term "highest level" since, although there are many high level players, I doubt anyone has played at the absolute highest possible level at this point....some just play at a higher level than others.

THis

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

MK9 looks like rock paper scissors to me :-S

You main kabal

 

[AC1984]

I know :-(

 

[WayoftheFist]

I play the game to play the game

I play most of all cast

and never value your opinion of me

Plus it's not like you didn't pull out CSZ against REO's Kabal in a Grand Finals match.

 

[AJ_Sidhu]

I play the game to play the game

I play most of all cast

and never value your opinion of me

Good for you.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

Pig is so full of shit when he says "tiers don't matter". The man has like 4 backups just to cover different MUs obviously he factors in tier list, and characters. Its completely hypocritical when he says he only values the player and not the character.

Pig of the Hut saying tier lists don't matter has nothing to do with having characters for specific matchups. All a tier list does is describe how people think a certain character fairs against the rest of the characters, and uses this 'value' to compare each character. A characters ranking on a tier list doesn't change the matchup. Say I had 2 A rank characters, and the match up was 7:3 against my character. If the community suddenly decides my character is S tier, it doesn't change that 7:3 matchup.

Point is, the list itself doesn't matter, but knowing your matchups does. Having 3 or 4 characters to take care of certain match ups doesn't mean you consider the tier list at all. It means you know which matches are made easier by switching characters/strategies. All this stress over a formal tier list is pointless in my opinion. Learning match ups for your character is more important than wasting time trying to justify why X character should be where on the list.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

And what I just said doesn't reflect Pig's opinions in any way. I don't know what his opinions are. It's just what I had to say on the matter.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Pig of the Hut saying tier lists don't matter has nothing to do with having characters for specific matchups. All a tier list does is describe how people think a certain character fairs against the rest of the characters, and uses this 'value' to compare each character. A characters ranking on a tier list doesn't change the matchup. Say I had 2 A rank characters, and the match up was 7:3 against my character. If the community suddenly decides my character is S tier, it doesn't change that 7:3 matchup.

Point is, the list itself doesn't matter, but knowing your matchups does. Having 3 or 4 characters to take care of certain match ups doesn't mean you consider the tier list at all. It means you know which matches are made easier by switching characters/strategies. All this stress over a formal tier list is pointless in my opinion. Learning match ups for your character is more important than wasting time trying to justify why X character should be where on the list.

yea man we think alike

 

[Espio]

At this point in the game, I would just like for people to play the game and learn the match ups, that's how we're going to level up and figure out this situation better. I created a new match up chart for Stryker and then deleted it immediately because I feel like Stryker needs to be played and matches need to be grinded out for him more and many others before even thinking of his tier position.

My focus has been on learning matches, if I can make a 4-6 feel like a 5-5 I'm all for pushing my character(s) to new heights.

I am never done learning with my mains.

I don't think I play Stryker or Jade at the highest level possible and I'm not ashamed to admit that....I have much to learn and we all do I think. We need to keep putting in work and figuring things out.


Just play the game, live and learn and above all things have fun with it. You can play to win and still have fun with the game, I do.

Less focus on characters sucking and more focus on leveling up.

 

[Big Pampering]

to some people tier list dont matter because they use like 3 characters or more, so that way you never play anything less than a 5-5 matchup, thats why people dont think it matters. but if you were to like play 1 or 2 characters it would definitely matter. for example: if you play subzero and smoke, youre going to have a very hard time if you meet a good kung lao player. things like that will hardly happen if you play characters like kabal, kenshi or sonya. so for mkplayers like pig it doesnt matter what the tier placements are really because he plays the game by using multiple characters. I see it like this at the highest possible level, if you want to win a tourney, you either need to play a character of at least A tier or higher, or you can play lower tiers but youre gonna need to play like 3 characters.