Official Killer Frost Apology Thread

[M2Dave]

@General M2Dave what do you think about Martian vs Bane after watching me and Franco play a long set offline? I was saying it was 5-5 for so many months but I'm starting finally lean towards Martian

He could barely win any games.

I have always said that Martian Manhunter is a "Kabal-esque" character who has no bad match ups and makes Injustice a boring game at the highest level of play.

 

[Rickyraws]

45% meterless, backgroundbounceless, trait less, Venom debuff less is low damage?

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

45% meterless, backgroundbounceless, trait less, Venom debuff less is low damage?

The problem is, reasonably she's only getting 30-35% off of the things she will normally hit. Less if you plan on going into Vortex.

For example in MK9, Jade actually had good damage, but the starters were only really off of jump ins or big punishes, so she was considered a very low damage character, because she didn't really get combos off of the normals she would normally hit.

 

[Laos_boy]

But neither ending in a Vortex right?

The 39% is a vortex ender. The 41% is a max damage meterless that ends in iceberg

 

[Rickyraws]

The problem is, reasonably she's only getting 30-35% off of the things she will normally hit. Less if you plan on going into Vortex.

For example in MK9, Jade actually had good damage, but the starters were only really off of jump ins or big punishes, so she was considered a very low damage character, because she didn't really get combos off of the normals she would normally hit.

Ah gotcha. That makes sense.

From a slide or a f3 though, unless I dropped the combo early with b2 for a quick stand set up, I usually never got anything less than 38%. I considered that healthy damage given how it's obtained from a 50/50 and ends in a vortex. I also found myself with so many opportunities for good damage without meter in certain match ups simply because a jump back J2 or a well timed dash in j2 will whiff punish wake ups like Lantern's lift, Joker's flower etc. thus taking almost half health for free (meter wise) I would then use my meter for mbf3, an excellent anti air. This is admittedly many months ago back when I played, and there are admittedly tactics not all Frosts employ.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Can @General M2Dave and @@MylesWright_ have a debate on who got nerfed more deathstroke or killerfrost.....i want this streamed. ill subscribe to payperview and everything.

Theres no need. Scorps got nerfed the most in this game.

 

[WakeUp DP]

So I found out on TYM how to see threads from people I block

Have people tag u in them otherwise they don't show up and honestly that's a good thing they don't show

Try it people - I avg 1-2 people added a week

Thx @The BOSS

You're cool.

 

[WakeUp DP]

No, I agree this time. This place has fallen off.

I blame the new Inj kids. Back in the MK9 era sure there was drama but never this dumb.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I demand an apology for when I said no KF player would consistently get the grab reset down, and everyone told me it was easy.

Now how many months later and nobody has it down.



Why does everyone blow Myles up? He's totally right about Killer Frost.

Let's look at her weaknesses:

• Zero air control, which is super important in Injustice
  
• Low damage compared to most characters
• Very possibly reactable Vortex (19 frames is very possibly reactable.)
• Zero good footsies tools
• Zero good pressure tools
• No way to get in on characters if she is at a life defecit
• Can't zone against almost all the top tiers (Superman, Martian, Aquaman, maybe Zod?)
• Tied for 4th WORST Forward Dash in the game at 21 frames (Fastest forward dash is 13 frames) (thanks @Laos_boy )
• Terrible jump normals, none are even fast enough to hit off of an instant air dash.
• Low range on everything except for slide, even B3/F3
• Requires meter to go into her vortex

Honestly I can't even list her as having any true strengths aside from her MB Parry (which is admittedly very strong in some matchups) and Iceberg being a relatively good anti zoning tool.

I don't understand why people think she's so good. She lacks so many basic tools for common situations...

Also where are the KF placings? Literally the only post patch KF placing I can think of was Civil War, and that wasn't purely KF right?

So is anyone going to contest any of these points aside from damage? Or can we all finally accept that KF is pretty bad now?

 

[Vak Phoenix]

So is anyone going to contest any of these points aside from damage? Or can we all finally accept that KF is pretty bad now?

No shes not bad. Right outside of top 10.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

No shes not bad. Right outside of top 10.

Which of those points that I made were wrong though?

 

[Laos_boy]

Your points are correct. Aside from damage.
Which you said. I believe she is dangerous with meter due to mb f3 any knock down becomes a guess. But she has to Knock them down first.

Its funny I think CW is worse than killer frost but son paper Catwoman is the far better character.

I do think killer frost is better than. scorpion cyborg CW Grundy arrow hawkgirl Ares joker Harley and is tied with zatanna just because of the vortex with out that both her and zatanna would be low

So is anyone going to contest any of these points aside from damage? Or can we all finally accept that KF is pretty bad now?

 

[astronout]

Okay, did Astronout use her for like one game in that tournament? I think that may have confused me.

a much closer set than i remember.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Which of those points that I made were wrong though?

Yeah but look, a lot of characters require meter correct? Raven for example. Killer Frosts air control sucks, but her anti airs are amazing. You have to consider the fact that she is not a rushdown character nor a zoner. She is all about mind games and defense.
Her zoning is pretty decent, and her daggers are 2 hit and 11% or 10% which is perfect if you read that someone is jumping back to bait the slide. Her j3 crosses up pretty well and is super + on block so she gets a free b1-slide or f3 after a blocked j3.
Her trait is very handy too, 11b2 is a perfect combo ender to setup for trait charge. You may charge it 99% of it and then just backdash.
Her d2 is very fast with a good enough range.
Her d1 is +2 on block.
Her u3 cannot be parries or armored, lets just say i slid and you blocked and tried to mb b3 or f3 or even throw or parry me if i did u3 i win in that situation.
Her b1 and standing 2 has a good range to punish anyone dashing in on you.
Her f2, f2-1, f2-3, b2, b2-3, u3, f3 are throw immune.
As @Rickyraws said her mbf3 kills you if you jump at her. But you require meter for that, which is no problem because as a good frost player you should be zoning or doing meterless hard knockdown and quickstand vortexes or even corner f-1-1-3 vortexes. You have to play and main the character at first to think if shes bad or no. And stop judging online performances. Which is actually another point i wanted to make. She is not a online character, if you miss one thing with her you are screwed. She is very timing based unlike Raven who can do numerous things after mb lift and has time to take shit come back and opponent will be still bouncing up.
Myles you need to shut up eventually and stop stirring up shit. If you tried as hard as @xKhaoTik and dedicated your time like a lot of us did, you wouldnt be saying that.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Myles you need to shut up eventually and stop stirring up shit. If you tried as hard as @xKhaoTik and dedicated your time like a lot of us did, you wouldnt be saying that.

What dedication? There has never been a moment where I've read something written by a Killer Frost player and not thought they must have been playing a completely different game.
You guys can almost be forgiven for your listings of 7-3 (potential 8-2) match-ups early on against characters like Bane but when I see late 2014 discussion about how Killer Frost goes 5-5 with Superman because she can slide punish air lasers at max height I know I was the only person ever playing the character

 

[Akromaniac27]

Omg just practice your combos. It's a world of difference when you don't have to open up the opponent 20 fucking times because you can't land a very much practical optimized combo that can drop that number down to 6 and it doesn't even have to be a good day

 

[Eddy Wang]

Miles Wright reminds of Completely jaded, talking about jade and buffs for her everytime even when NRS stopped patching the game.

 

[Akromaniac27]

a much closer set than i remember.

This upset me -____- I just saw 2 bars get used up for the same damage that one meterless combo could do, and even more if you wanted to spend a bar for a vortex

 

[astronout]

This upset me -____- I just saw 2 bars get used up for the same damage that one meterless combo could do, and even more if you wanted to spend a bar for a vortex

unfortunately, this footage occured way before i mastered her revamped bnb's. i was still quite new to killa frost

 

[Akromaniac27]

unfortunately, this footage occured way before i mastered her revamped bnb's. i was still quite new to killa frost

Thank god you've put the effort into learning them though. It mind boggles me when people do the same day 1, basic online combo, OFFLINE to this day. Like honestly, what can one possibly hope to gain out of that?

 

[Vak Phoenix]

What dedication? There has never been a moment where I've read something written by a Killer Frost player and not thought they must have been playing a completely different game.
You guys can almost be forgiven for your listings of 7-3 (potential 8-2) match-ups early on against characters like Bane but when I see late 2014 discussion about how Killer Frost goes 5-5 with Superman because she can slide punish air lasers at max height I know I was the only person ever playing the character

U have got to be kidding me? You want me to go over the mu? Parry/tripgruard air laser/d2/hkd. Now go back to party city where you belong.

 

[Sultan]

@EGP Wonder_Chef

• Zero air control, which is super important in Injustice: How do you mean?... she has an air-dash, and she has awesome anti-air options. I'm assuming you mean her aerial movement is trash. If so, true, she's one of the weakest characters when she leaves the ground. Avoiding interactables is total bullshit with her.

• Low damage compared to most characters: False, for reasons already explained.

• Very possibly reactable Vortex (19 frames is very possibly reactable.): False, she has borderline invisible, unreactable cross-up 50/50 options post freeze.

• Zero good footsies tools: False. She has few, but not zero. Slide, MB.F3 and d2 are all very strong options.

• Zero good pressure tools: False. She has a few... 111~trait cancel, f.dash is plus on block, guaranteeing pressure and frame traps. d1 creates frame trap scenarios as well. Post-freeze she has multi-layered 50/50's that lead into frame-traps.

• No way to get in on characters if she is at a life deficit: True, this is one of her critical weaknesses

• Can't zone against almost all the top tiers (Superman, Martian, Aquaman, maybe Zod?): True, but I disagree with Aquaman, if anything it's the other way around... and Zod's tricky, but she can annoy him somewhat from afar, but yeah, he's not someone she should be chucking daggers at.

• Tied for 4th WORST Forward Dash in the game at 21 frames (Fastest forward dash is 13 frames) (thanks @@Laos_boy ): True, her dash is terribad.

• Terrible jump normals, none are even fast enough to hit off of an instant air dash.: True again, her air normals are mostly trash. j3 has good priority, albeit slower than I'd like.

• Low range on everything except for slide, even B3/F3: True, she has dino arms.

• Requires meter to go into her vortex: True, but she has a vortex in the first place, which is something most the cast would give an arm and a leg to obtain. Her needing meter is only really comparable to one character in the game, Batgirl, so I don't see this as a strong example of a weakness, just a meaningless point.

I'd argue your last point doesn't count, so I'm just going to throw it out. Of your 10 viable points, I'll give you 6/10, assuming I interpreted your first point correctly. You forgot arguably her worst weakness on her checklist though: interactables. I'd argue no character was more boned by interactables than Frost.

I took this character very seriously for a very long period of time, and I discovered and fleshed out a lot of what she's capable of in training mode, and I went out of my way to play as many top players as I could online and off. I feel confident in saying that I have one of, if not the most, complete understandings of this character. With all that said, my argument's always been simple: she is not a bad character by any means, and she's not a top tier character. Not even high. Upper middle tier? Yes. Middle at worst. In my own personal tier list, she's literally just outside of the top 10, sitting at number 11. She's a strong, useful character, but I wouldn't suggest picking her up unless you want to push her to her limits, and even then it would be smart to have a pocket Deathstroke or Flash to deal with her bad match-ups. When pushed to her limits she can end matches off of a single hard-read or parry/anti-air. All it takes is one touch and she can build top tier momentum that Bane and Flash would blush at. Her other limitation is a steep execution barrier that's painfully unforgiving online, so good luck finding an offline Frost to prove what she's capable of.

As for mastering her reset, I'd say I did. I hit it 70% of the time offline, and if I fail I've layered it with an option select that allows me to just go for a 50/50 when I mess it up, so no harm no foul when I drop it. Just saying.

 

[MagicMan357]

Low guns are still good????? Lmfao

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

I have no apologies for Killer Frost. She is the worst designed fighting game player I have ever played against. She deserves to never come back in any game, ever.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

Lol, Dave is such a character deluxe. Every once in a while he takes a break from his usual insanity to form a really well thought out point and I'm like:

YOU are never like that. You don't look that good.