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Nerf/buffs and what's really needed

ando1184

Warrior
@ scorpion responses: flame aura shouldn't hit you when it's no longer visibly on screen. That is my argument and the move is practically a meterless armored move.

@ shinnok responses: I think if block breaker was less of a consequence then all these chip traps can stay but at the moment it's not. I mentioned the f22 because it's part of the loop and is what keeps you jailed after db2 MB. The real issue is the advantage from db2 MB, it's an eternity and all you can do is stay there and take the chip (35% by the way, w/ 3 bars). Since this game doesn't assist the defending player he can easily close out a match if the opponent still has around 30%. Who wants to die blocking when they could have been still in the game with good reads and mixups? So I firmly believe either fix breaker system or fix amount of chip/meter gained from certain characters. They just did this fix to raidens lightening attacks, the chip got reduced but he still gains 1/3 a bar from them.

@erron black comments: he still has standing 1, 11, 11b3, jump in 3, jump in 4, d1, d3, d4, f12, 21 and 211 for tic throw setups. The nerfs I suggested will straight up normalize the character. He doesn't need more grapple scenarios than some of the more grapple-esc characters in this game. Especially since he does good damage, controls pace of the match with caltrops, keeps his 50/50's, and has great footsie tools. Please stop downplaying, it won't kill him or his other variations.

@ SZ responses: I just see parry get stuffed too often and it's happened too often to me as well. It's supposed to be useful on reads and footsies like you said @Braindead but even with proper reads it fails a lot of times. This is my argument on that and why I think it should operate better as a parry. Seriously, do you think killer frost in injustice had worse tools than SZ does in this game and that's justification as to why her parry was so good? SZ parry should operate like that imo in the sense that when inputted on a read, it properly parrys.
 
Updated OP with liu kang nerf
Lol, are you going around searching for nerfs? Let the character breathe for at least a week before you run around looking for things to nerf.

@ scorpion responses: flame aura shouldn't hit you when it's no longer visibly on screen. That is my argument and the move is practically a meterless armored move.
So then lower the startup frames since sometimes my flame aura is clearly on the screen yet my opponent still gets right threw it. Also, there is nothing "armored" about it.
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
All my chars keep getting nerfed, I might just wait till all patching is done. Cause so far even the bnbs feel more difficult I have no idea why.

All my Jins damage is gone, my ice clone game gone, my laos damage gone etc. I'm tired of the crying getting the best of TYM and forcing NRs to do unnecessary nerfs.
 

ando1184

Warrior
Lol, are you going around searching for nerfs? Let the character breathe for at least a week before you run around looking for things to nerf.


So then lower the startup frames since sometimes my flame aura is clearly on the screen yet my opponent still gets right threw it. Also, there is nothing "armored" about it.
No I'm not looking for nerfs, I have a pocket liu kang that I play for fun, but I also do my research. This current buff shot him up the tier list, and I have an eye for broken mechanics. Idk bout you but I want a balanced fighting game. Also, I said flame aura is "practically" like an armored move not that it was. It functions like one on a defensive side, but having that move hit when it's entirely gone from view is rediculous. Only kenjutsu kenshi has the luxury of invisible moves, and it makes sense for him aesthetically.
 
No I'm not looking for nerfs, I have a pocket liu kang that I play for fun, but I also do my research. This current buff shot him up the tier list, and I have an eye for broken mechanics. Idk bout you but I want a balanced fighting game. Also, I said flame aura is "practically" like an armored move not that it was. It functions like one on a defensive side, but having that move hit when it's entirely gone from view is rediculous. Only kenjutsu kenshi has the luxury of invisible moves, and it makes sense for him aesthetically.
Lol, "an eye for broken mechanics". Of course Liu builds meter faster because he is the master of block strings in this game; it's his shtick. Also, flame aura is nothing like an armor move no matter how many times you say it. The startup is very long and if I try to use it anywhere near like an armored move I'd get blown up.

Do more research please.
 

Vilén

too smart to play MKX
Fair note for this post: I am 13 beers in before 8 PM on a Thursday.

Jesus Christ people aren't gonna stop with Thunder God Raiden until Raiden has three mediocre variations instead of just one good one.

F1 is a high, reduced chip damage on strings, now the OP has him losing meter gain? Holy shit Thunder God is going to boil down to the variation you choose because the FX are visually satisfying. The whole variation will be about LRCs which is stupid and not enough. How 'bout after these last two patch cycles we start asking for Raiden's utterly meaningless Displacer version to get it's fix instead. LRCs + the meter gain and -adjusted- chip damage is FINE, quit being a pussy. I hate to sound like grandpa but I mashed fifteen buttons in the snow against worse shit than thunder god Raiden some years ago so I hope you grow hair on your balls soon too.

Side note to the OP, all Unbreakable Sub-zero needs to be your new nightmare is for the Grandmaster/Cyromancer db1 to be a universal move. If that happens, few months down the line it's like "Grandmaster who?" I understand NRS was going for 'balance' and trying to be 'conservative' when dolling out the variation tools but all that did in this situation was to create a "JUST FUCKING JUMP AT ME ALL YOU WANT LOL" contract from Unbreakable.

There's another speech sitting in the pit of my stomach that isn't right to unleash now. I don't even fully understand what it is yet... but it grows.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Unbreakable parry is fine. A 6f combo starter should have insane recovery. And you can use ex Aura to take more risks with the parry.
Parry doesn't scale bad at all. You can easily get 25% off a parry with a combo that carries the opponent half way through the stage which means you can easily corner them. Having damage higher than that is pretty much crazy off a 6f (or 3f EX) parry.

The only "problem" with unbreakable is that he needs the player to be on point with his footsies and spacing to help him with his anti-airing and trip guarding. But that doesn't mean at all that parry should anti-air like most people want it to. I'd take being able to parry low pokes over parrying jump attacks any day.
By "easily 25%" I take it you are talking about execution, because it feels like 25% is the absolute most you can get off the parry that I know of. As far as the 73 frame window being necessary for the punish window, it's not. Sonya's parry has 4 frame start up and is -36 on block, and it converts for 44% for a meter. Does her parry look OP to you? Because its not at all.

The problem with having a -73 window on a whiffed Ice parry is that it means you are completely an utterly fully combo punishable off it. You might get 25% off a hit, but your opponent is likely getting 40% or more off your whiff.

You mention using EX-Aura to take more risks, that's exactly how I used to play Unbreakable. The problem is, that meter that you are pumping into your aura, is much better saved just to Breaker your opponent on a whiffed parry. For example, lets say you whiffed two Parrys in a row, and both times you were fortunate enough to have EX-Aura up (something you don't need to worrry about with Breaker), and your opponent punishes both times for a cool 30%. 60% total, scaled to 40% thanks to the measures you used earlier. However, if you used that same amount of meter to breaker once, you only take 30%. The amount of health saved only scales in your favor the higher the punishes get.


At best, this leaves us with an EX-Aura that will be HIGHLY situational in the rare times that its a better use of meter than breaker, except unlike Breaker you can't just choose to use it for a situation, you pretty much have to pump meter into it consistently all game to be using it like this.
At worst, one could argue it's possibly the least useful EX-Special in the game.

The one redeeming feature is the standard Aura, which is almost what you could call "fundamentally flawed" in a game against so many true 50/50's, where it will work half the time. Unbreakable has his match ups where he is OK, against anyone without a true 50/50 that Chipless block immediately becomes much better, but as far as a variation goes in general it is absolutely no trade off for a clone, for a safer armored wake up that also AA's, the 2 high damage projectiles, the set ups, the footsies and the corner jail / damage that GM gives you. Hell it isn't even coming close to comparing with the slow-armour overhead that walks through most wake ups / neutrals and converts for like 35% because of the high damage ender, that you get from Cryo.


I know you like Unbreakable, but looking at it with an honest eye, it's probably bottom 3 in the game as far as useful variations go. At first glance it's ok, looking a little deeper it's trash at everything except looking the coolest (which it definitely nails)
 
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Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
By "easily 25%" I take it you are talking about execution, because it feels like 25% is the absolute most you can get off the parry that I know of. As far as the 73 frame window being necessary for the punish window, it's not. Sonya's parry has 4 frame start up and is -36 on block, and it converts for 44% for a meter. Does her parry look OP to you? Because its not at all.

The problem with having a -73 window on a whiffed Ice parry is that it means you are completely an utterly fully combo punishable off it. You might get 25% off a hit, but your opponent is likely getting 40% or more off your whiff.

You mention using EX-Aura to take more risks, that's exactly how I used to play Unbreakable. The problem is, that meter that you are pumping into your aura, is much better saved just to Breaker your opponent on a whiffed parry. For example, lets say you whiffed two Parrys in a row, and both times you were fortunate enough to have EX-Aura up (something you don't need to worrry about with Breaker), and your opponent punishes both times for a cool 30%. 60% total, scaled to 40% thanks to the measures you used earlier. However, if you used that same amount of meter to breaker once, you only take 30%. The amount of health saved only scales in your favor the higher the punishes get, and


At best, this leaves us with an EX-Aura that will be HIGHLY situational in the rare times that its a better use of meter than breaker, except unlike Breaker you can't just choose to use it for a situation, you pretty much have to pump meter into it consistently all game to be using it like this.
At worst, one could argue it's possibly the least useful EX-Special in the game.

The one redeeming feature is the standard Aura, which is almost what you could call "fundamentally flawed" in a game against so many true 50/50's, where it will work half the time. Unbreakable has his match ups where he is OK, against anyone without a true 50/50 that Chipless block immediately becomes much better, but as far as a variation goes in general it is absolutely no trade off for a clone, for a safer armored wake up that also AA's, the 2 high damage projectiles, the set ups, the footsies and the corner jail / damage that GM gives you. Hell it isn't even coming close to comparing with the slow-armour overhead that walks through most wake ups / neutrals and converts for like 35% because of the high damage ender, that you get from Cryo.


I know you like Unbreakable, but looking at it with an honest eye, it's probably bottom 3 in the game as far as useful variations go. At first glance it's ok, looking a little deeper it's trash at everything except looking the coolest (which it definitely nails)
Sonya's parry has half the recovery because it doesn't parry lows. Seems fair.

One shouldn't keep going for EX Ice Aura. You should be smart when using it. I disagree that it's better to always save your meter for a breaker because combos don't build a lot of meter and it's not that easy to break combos as you make it sound. Especially when you have only one bar.

If you have only one bar and use it for EX Aura, it's like you broke a 40% combo with one bar when the counter hit ~25%.

Completely disagree that EX Aura is in the least useful special category, and completely disagree that Unbreakable is bottom 3 variation.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Sonya's parry has half the recovery because it doesn't parry lows. Seems fair.
It also does 20% more damage, hell it does almost 10% more than your most damage WALL combo, which makes it an actual useful trade off for the risk that it runs, which is also much less than a whiffed Ice parry. There is a different between mispredicting a parry and getting D4'd, or mispredicting a parry and sitting there for 73 frames, which is often the difference between the two.

One shouldn't keep going for EX Ice Aura. You should be smart when using it. I disagree that it's better to always save your meter for a breaker because combos don't build a lot of meter and it's not that easy to break combos as you make it sound. Especially when you have only one bar.
This seems like pretty bad logic to me. "Only have the EX Aura up when you plan to get hit!" That's not how this game works, and it's not something you can predict. If you ARE lucky enough to only get hit whenever you decide to meter it, well then either you got extremely lucky with your decision making in when to EX, or you just outplayed the shit out of your opponent anyway and it was just a worse use of meter than say, Ex-ing a Hammer in Cryo.



If you have only one bar and use it for EX Aura, it's like you broke a 40% combo with one bar when the counter hit ~25%. Completely disagree that EX Aura is in the least useful special category, and completely disagree that Unbreakable is bottom 3 variation.
Ok now, does that to you sound significantly better than Breaker, which every single character has access to? Hell to me it sounds worse, for many reasons, especially considering breaker can be done at the drop of a dime completely unlike ex-Aura, and completely stops their tempo with a standing reset. This is the problem to me, at very best, it's DEBATABLY better and only situational. It's even easier to argue that it's much worse than Breaker. However, it's extremely hard to argue that it's worth trading off an actual useful variation, for one with a tool that is comparable in power level to Breaker and can be used instead of it, because Breaker is a tool available to EVERYONE.

I don't think Unbreakable SZ is a bottom 3 character, his normals and base character are too good for that to be the case. In terms of usefulness offered by variations however, I think Unbreakable is a bottom 3 variation for what it gives you. Even more so when you look at the amazing things you trade off to take it.
 

ando1184

Warrior
Lol, "an eye for broken mechanics". Of course Liu builds meter faster because he is the master of block strings in this game; it's his shtick. Also, flame aura is nothing like an armor move no matter how many times you say it. The startup is very long and if I try to use it anywhere near like an armored move I'd get blown up.

Do more research please.
Look, you clearly speak as though you want imbalance in a fighting game. So let's agree to disagree because I know what I've researched and I'm gonna stand by it. You seem like you're gonna stand by your remarks too because you're afraid your characters might get "normalized" so let it be at that.
 

cambros22

Stand Back I'm a Doctor!!!!!!
So much Bitching. So little searching for alternatives. Seems the trend people follow on TYM. Its disappointing to constantly hear people complaining about tech, setups, moves etc.. that they don't even understand the application for. ask questions about things you dont understand. get a large consensus on whether something is broken or not. Then say can this be fixed.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Look, you clearly speak as though you want imbalance in a fighting game. So let's agree to disagree because I know what I've researched and I'm gonna stand by it. You seem like you're gonna stand by your remarks too because you're afraid your characters might get "normalized" so let it be at that.
Nah dude, @Ares_Supreme got a point. I was with you up till you posted the LK changes. Don't get me wrong, the changes you mentioned seem sensible at first glance all things considered and you aren't asking for a massive nerf, and I won't argue that it's wrong. However, there is a difference between wanting to change things that have been in the game since day one on all platforms, and changing things that have been in the game for one day, on one platform. The reason I won't argue that it's wrong is because I don't know, and neither do you. We have no idea what this will do for Liu Kang, so let's just let it ride for a little bit longer, and you might have a case. Flame Fist is still probably only on the level of Dragon Fire now, it's not even a clean cut best variation, and it's not like DF Lui Kang is making waves in any competitive scene. It's ok for for characters to have things they do remarkably better than other characters, it's not as though LK doesn't do a lot of things remarkably worse than a lot of characters to make up for it.
 
Look, you clearly speak as though you want imbalance in a fighting game. So let's agree to disagree because I know what I've researched and I'm gonna stand by it. You seem like you're gonna stand by your remarks too because you're afraid your characters might get "normalized" so let it be at that.
Someone disagreeing with you doesn't make them wrong. You clearly have issues with opposition and constructive discussion. Also, my characters are constantly getting normalized. Guess what? I don't cry about it at all; I deal with. Hellfire Scorpion is my main. Do some research before throwing out bogus claims. I literally just picked up Flame Fist Liu as I had already been playing Dragon's Fire which is still my second main.

You can't just suggest nerfs and expect everyone to accept them as the word of God. Get over your ego and get a grip.

So sick of everyone standing on a pedestal around here.