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Match-up Discussion My stupid Black Adam MU chart

Error

Error

DF2+R2
MajinBerserker said:
How often do you play a Shazam? His oki is excellent- I am not debating that. But once you get used to the post-knock down game I feel your opinion will shift back to BA's favor.
I play a frisky, yolo, unpredictable Shazam in St. Louis (for over a year now) and his knock down set ups got me good at first, but once I saw them multiple times I was able to adjust and time my wake-up lightning cages or back dashes properly. This dude's good and throws out crazy shit on me all the time b/c he expects me to lightning cage on wake up all of the time, so I had to make the adjustment.
On knockdown, the Shazam is probably going to try a meaty grab set up, safe jump set up, cross up set up, teleport set up, etc. Just play against it for a bit and I think you'll feel it's still BA's game. Obviously wake up cage is good against these set ups once you can time it right and blow up his attempts (sometimes it just becomes a meaty cage b/c you expire the "wake up" time and make it a raw punish, same with a back dash). Palpatine hands also works well in a lot of situations. And this is all IF Shazam can even get the knock down on you. Super high risk-high reward for Shazam. Shazam's damage is better, in trait, BUT he has to have the meter for a MB grab and have trait active for any sort of "oh shit, I'm dead" damage. W/out trait, I feel the damage difference is negligible. Adam's meterless damage is also levels above Shazam's.

Sacrifice 2-3% damage and end all of BA's combos with b23u1, or another full-screener, until you have the kill combo. Full screen what is Shazam going to do?
Properly timed Black Magic and Low Lightnings stop the teleports and lightning bolts. If he's getting too close, trait up to scare him a little and get that free damage.
Click to expand...
Not as often as I used to, but I also played Shazam myself for a while. I just don't see how Adam's mediocre zoning is going to keep Shazam out, he just has to walk/dash/jump in until he's in his B2 range, which reaches farther than our B2. The main issue with the knockdown game is that we're taking all the huge risks, if he makes the right read we're getting anywhere from 38-50% damage depending on his meter and stage interactables. A jump in will beat jazz hands, back dash, and sometimes cage, MBF3 instead of HM will also change how we get up as well. Shazam's also shouldn't be afraid to attempt a B2 or an HM just because we have trait up unless they're in the danger zone health wise.

Sure Adam's meterless damage is better, but Shazam has actual mix-ups that allow him to constantly get damage.

Sure Black Adam can play lame in this match, but it's not effective to the point where Shazam loses. Superman can keep Shazam out a lot more effectively as and even that is only a 4-6 for Shazam.
 
Braindead

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
I think the Nightwing MU is 6-4 for BA. His jumps are a real problem for NW. In Escrima he doesn't have anything going on for him and the fact that Flip Kick doesn't cross up is stupid. Also it's really difficult for NW to punish divekicks in Escrima.

Nightwing has to depend on Staff Stance, but then Low Lightning and Black Magic become decent zoning tools. Also Black Adam can keep jumping around and there's not much Nightwing can do about it.

It's not unwinnable for Nightwing but the NW player has to work a lot more to win. So 6-4 sounds about right.
 
MLDoom

MLDoom

All these prices and I'm still free
I think the Lobo MU is 5-5, I don't see how BA has any extreme advantage over Lobo. Lobo can counterzone with shells loaded to keep Black Adam second guessing his projectile throws. Standing 3 knocks BA completely out of his foot dive. Lobo can punish whiff lightning cage on wake up in a variety of ways and finally Lobo's damage is nuts. I really think this matchup is 5-5 or maybe even 5.5 in Lobo's favor. Oh and MB hook charge blows up footdive a lot. I really have to disagree that Lobo loses.
 
Syknis

Syknis

King of the Kiddie Pool
Aqua out footsies adam. After MB dive kick adam has limited guaranteed options that won't open up a patient aqua. People talk about "oh, all I need is for him to do one bad FTD and I'm in!!" well Aqua doesn't have to give you anything. He could just sit there. The only way an adam will win is if he frustrates the aqua but to do this he has to be the one taking the risks @usbigboy
 
usbigboy

usbigboy

You weren't on frame bro
Syknis said:
Aqua out footsies adam. After MB dive kick adam has limited guaranteed options that won't open up a patient aqua. People talk about "oh, all I need is for him to do one bad FTD and I'm in!!" well Aqua doesn't have to give you anything. He could just sit there. The only way an adam will win is if he frustrates the aqua but to do this he has to be the one taking the risks @usbigboy
Click to expand...
What this brown kid said here.
 
MajinBerserker

MajinBerserker

My power equals yours!
Error said:
Not as often as I used to, but I also played Shazam myself for a while. I just don't see how Adam's mediocre zoning is going to keep Shazam out, he just has to walk/dash/jump in until he's in his B2 range, which reaches farther than our B2. The main issue with the knockdown game is that we're taking all the huge risks, if he makes the right read we're getting anywhere from 38-50% damage depending on his meter and stage interactables. A jump in will beat jazz hands, back dash, and sometimes cage, MBF3 instead of HM will also change how we get up as well. Shazam's also shouldn't be afraid to attempt a B2 or an HM just because we have trait up unless they're in the danger zone health wise.

Sure Adam's meterless damage is better, but Shazam has actual mix-ups that allow him to constantly get damage.

Sure Black Adam can play lame in this match, but it's not effective to the point where Shazam loses. Superman can keep Shazam out a lot more effectively as and even that is only a 4-6 for Shazam.
Click to expand...
Good points, I fully accept the reasoning.
 
EGP Wonder_Chef

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Error said:
Not as often as I used to, but I also played Shazam myself for a while. I just don't see how Adam's mediocre zoning is going to keep Shazam out, he just has to walk/dash/jump in until he's in his B2 range, which reaches farther than our B2. The main issue with the knockdown game is that we're taking all the huge risks, if he makes the right read we're getting anywhere from 38-50% damage depending on his meter and stage interactables. A jump in will beat jazz hands, back dash, and sometimes cage, MBF3 instead of HM will also change how we get up as well. Shazam's also shouldn't be afraid to attempt a B2 or an HM just because we have trait up unless they're in the danger zone health wise.

Sure Adam's meterless damage is better, but Shazam has actual mix-ups that allow him to constantly get damage.

Sure Black Adam can play lame in this match, but it's not effective to the point where Shazam loses. Superman can keep Shazam out a lot more effectively as and even that is only a 4-6 for Shazam.
Click to expand...
I think Supes is worse than 4-6 for Shazam.


I do think Shazam might beat Bladam though. There are definitely stages though where Bladam wins. Drone stages in particular I think he can effectively zone Shazam...

Depending on the stage it can go from like 4-6 to 6-4
 
Error

Error

DF2+R2
EGP Wonder_Chef said:
I think Supes is worse than 4-6 for Shazam.


I do think Shazam might beat Bladam though. There are definitely stages though where Bladam wins. Drone stages in particular I think he can effectively zone Shazam...

Depending on the stage it can go from like 4-6 to 6-4
Click to expand...
I think just landing on a stage with a bounce is a huge victory for Adam, and especially huge for Shazam, they benefit so much from them. As much as I downplay this character however, I don't see this as a losing MU.
 
ryublaze

ryublaze

Noob
BA vs. DS could be even or 6-4 DS favor (i personally think DS wins). Deathstroke has an answer to everything. MB high guns punish black magic, jump back air guns punish lightning strike, if BA jumps looking for low guns he gets punished by MB high guns. DS can also just jump back a lot and punish dive kicks with jump 3. DS jump 1 is really good in this MU because of BA's floaty jump making it easy to react to and it beats out dive kick clean. Machine gun also isn't a bad option to throw out because if he reads it and dive kicks you can just MB it to knock him out of the air.

Post F3 guessing game is also in DS favor because it's difficult for BA to punish if he guesses right. DS can just do b22 sword spin and he can't punish it if BA backdashes. DS's B1u2 i believe can only be punished with instant air divekick or lightning hands up close, but it's really hard last time I tried. And if DS does a jump 3 BA can't d2 him.
 
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Clark L.

Clark L.

F1 ftw.
MajinBerserker said:
How often do you play a Shazam? His oki is excellent- I am not debating that. But once you get used to the post-knock down game I feel your opinion will shift back to BA's favor.
I play a frisky, yolo, unpredictable Shazam in St. Louis (for over a year now) and his knock down set ups got me good at first, but once I saw them multiple times I was able to adjust and time my wake-up lightning cages or back dashes properly. This dude's good and throws out crazy shit on me all the time b/c he expects me to lightning cage on wake up all of the time, so I had to make the adjustment.
On knockdown, the Shazam is probably going to try a meaty grab set up, safe jump set up, cross up set up, teleport set up, etc. Just play against it for a bit and I think you'll feel it's still BA's game. Obviously wake up cage is good against these set ups once you can time it right and blow up his attempts (sometimes it just becomes a meaty cage b/c you expire the "wake up" time and make it a raw punish, same with a back dash). Palpatine hands also works well in a lot of situations. And this is all IF Shazam can even get the knock down on you. Super high risk-high reward for Shazam. Shazam's damage is better, in trait, BUT he has to have the meter for a MB grab and have trait active for any sort of "oh shit, I'm dead" damage. W/out trait, I feel the damage difference is negligible. Adam's meterless damage is also levels above Shazam's.

Sacrifice 2-3% damage and end all of BA's combos with b23u1, or another full-screener, until you have the kill combo. Full screen what is Shazam going to do?
Properly timed Black Magic and Low Lightnings stop the teleports and lightning bolts. If he's getting too close, trait up to scare him a little and get that free damage.
Click to expand...
"Frisky, yolo shazam" lol I like that, and in regards to aquaman, I agree with what syknis said
 
Clark L.

Clark L.

F1 ftw.
MLDoom said:
I think the Lobo MU is 5-5, I don't see how BA has any extreme advantage over Lobo. Lobo can counterzone with shells loaded to keep Black Adam second guessing his projectile throws. Standing 3 knocks BA completely out of his foot dive. Lobo can punish whiff lightning cage on wake up in a variety of ways and finally Lobo's damage is nuts. I really think this matchup is 5-5 or maybe even 5.5 in Lobo's favor. Oh and MB hook charge blows up footdive a lot. I really have to disagree that Lobo loses.
Click to expand...
Honestly I don't have the best answer for this one. When I was playing Yoakss the other day, It just felt like he had to work harder than I did. Maybe it's just because his strings are kind of not that hard to react to(low/overhead). And adam can turtle you out a bit.
 
Clark L.

Clark L.

F1 ftw.
EGP Wonder_Chef said:
I think Supes is worse than 4-6 for Shazam.


I do think Shazam might beat Bladam though. There are definitely stages though where Bladam wins. Drone stages in particular I think he can effectively zone Shazam...

Depending on the stage it can go from like 4-6 to 6-4
Click to expand...
This is similar to lobo in the sense that I feel like the Shazam player has to make every read and play out of his mind, where as ba can still play his game and not work as hard
 
Clark L.

Clark L.

F1 ftw.
Braindead said:
I think the Nightwing MU is 6-4 for BA. His jumps are a real problem for NW. In Escrima he doesn't have anything going on for him and the fact that Flip Kick doesn't cross up is stupid. Also it's really difficult for NW to punish divekicks in Escrima.

Nightwing has to depend on Staff Stance, but then Low Lightning and Black Magic become decent zoning tools. Also Black Adam can keep jumping around and there's not much Nightwing can do about it.

It's not unwinnable for Nightwing but the NW player has to work a lot more to win. So 6-4 sounds about right.
Click to expand...
@EMPR_MURK
 
Clark L.

Clark L.

F1 ftw.
EMPR_MURK said:
Everything he said is true. This mu could really go either way but adam has a slight advantage
Click to expand...
I agree you have to stay in staff stance but ground pound is faster than black magic or low lightning, and if I dive kick (mb) you can just b1 (I beleive) if I try to back dash

Edit: if I'm wrong, show me what to do;/
 
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E

EMPR_MURK

Warrior
Clark Luthor said:
I agree you have to stay in staff stance but ground pound is faster than black magic or low lightning, and if I dive kick (mb) you can just b1 (I beleive) if I try to back dash

Edit: if I'm wrong, show me what to do;/
Click to expand...
If u mb divekick, I have to respect it unless u do what most adam players do and thats dash up like a fool or jump at me but besides that, I must respect it.
 
MajinBerserker

MajinBerserker

My power equals yours!
Clark Luthor said:
This is similar to lobo in the sense that I feel like the Shazam player has to make every read and play out of his mind, where as ba can still play his game and not work as hard
Click to expand...
I agree with this, on both accounts. The Lobo and Shazam must play better, overall, to get the W. BA can be a little lazy and still have the advantage, I feel.
If the BA knows the match perfectly and is on point, definitely a W for him.
BA can still play the jump back game, to an extent, thus causing the Lobo and Shazam to have to start dashing in and taking some risks to get close. Sure, Lobo has MB gun to combat this, but- if only one shell hits he doesn't get that full damage, used meter and put BA FULL SCREEN again, thanks. Shazam's b2 is great for jump back, but it's range is limited.
 
MajinBerserker

MajinBerserker

My power equals yours!
@Error
I've heard you've played RedRaptor a time, or two. What are your thoughts on the DS match-up?
I can imagine it's a nightmare to deal with online (that's where you play Raptor, correct?) but I still feel you can get the proper match-up experience. It's a lot easier offline, but still very difficult.
 
bishbash

bishbash

Magic as easy as 1 2 standing3
If you think he goes even with Zatanna you're not spamming divekick enough. She has nothing to challenge and can't even punish the 'unsafe' version (at least I've been unsuccessful in doing so) she can't even toss a ring safely in that MU. It must be up close with her great normal where she makes this even :rolleyes:
 
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