Question - Spectral My issues with Spectral

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Hello everyone I'm new to Ermac. Because of REO's videos I picked Spectral for 2 weeks, only Spectral. He looked pretty good in the first place but when I share my issues with my friends I got rekt a lot more

REO proves that all of F4, B3, F21, B12, 22 cancelled into flight has a 5f gap or smaller, thus can't be counter poked by 6f pokes, and B2 ~ flight has no gap. It's true. Let's talk about F4 and B3 because they're the most important part of Spectral mixup. In REO's video he only shows F4/B3 xx flight on block, he can instantly does 234 the first frame after Ermac goes in the air so the gap between F4/B3 and flight 234 is small. However, if your opponents get hit by F4/B3 (which happens a lot because they're unfuzzyable mixup) Spectral has to fly forward a bit to convert into combo. My first issue is I can't hit confirm F4/B3 to choose whether I should fly forward or not. If I fly forward the gap becomes bigger and I can be poked/anti air. If I want to keep the gap less than 5f I have to do air 234 real quick without flying foward, but if they got hit by F4/B3 my air normals will whiff. In both cases I'm talking risk. My question is: Is it possible to hit confirm this? Or you have to fly forward everytime you do F4/B3 fly?

The second issue: midscreen flight 234 into d3 has a gap so if anyone armors through this I can't block. 234 into air DB2 has no gap but on block, some characters get pushed back further and my air DB2 whiffs. How to deal with this? How to stay safe after we use flight on block?

And the 3rd big issue is: I watched the video about B12 ~ flight tech to deal with all armors move in the game. But F4/B3 has different cancel advantage from B12 so the timing is different, I tried but change of success is extremely low. So what we should do with F4/B3 ~ flight to deal with armors move? Is Spectral's 50/50 really as safe as what people keep talking about?

Derptile post a tier list and he put Ermac in S tier. Reason: because Spectral has safe 50/50 and good flight pressure/mixup so he's better than MoS. After 2 weeks of losing with Spectral I don't agree. I would like to hear your opinions about Spectral vs MoS as well
EDIT: I edited to make my questions more specific

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

MOS has easier damage, meterless vortex options and the threat of Soul Ball to keep people from recklessly whiffing moves or jumping.

Spectral has safer mixups, close to the same level of meterless damage mid screen, high damage in the corner and better mobility. I've found everything can be hit confirmed into flight. F4 has a significant amount of hit stun so it's easy to float forward into combo.

For other specifics I'd leave that to @Nausea

 

[Nausea]

- F4/B3 into SA should give you enough time to decide what you are going to do to be honest. If the F4/B3 is blocked you are confirming into SA anyway to be safe and after that, its all about reads. If you are able to make the read that the opponent is going to armor, stuff them back or fly through them/away from them depending which characters armor you have to deal with. Spectral can stuff armors on read with out breaking a sweat leading to a nice combo. If a F4/B3 connects, there is plenty of hit stun so you can make the read to fly forward and continue the combo but if you feel you have mis-read the situation, just fly up and away from the opponent and learn what he/she would prefer to do next and capitalize accordingly. There is some conditioning involved of course.

- Don't always confrim 234 is the simplest answer. If you see them getting pushed a lil farther than you would prefer, stop the string at 2 or 3 and into his D3/DB2 or fly away, or on hit, throw out the DB4 and continue the string. The 4 has the most whiffing issues due to spacing but cut it short at 3 if you feel to far away and carry on as normal. Always remember your EX DB4 and EX DB2 have armor so if you think they are coming through the gap, apply one of those moves in accordance to what you think is appropriate. Keep an eye on your opponents meter at all times. If they can't armor through, its 100% safe, insane pressure which helps you condition your opponent for when he does have meter.

- This will just take about 10 mins in the lab to get used to the different cancel advantages. B12 SA is easier to link than F4/B3 SA but after a while, you don't feel it at all. B3 to deal with armor moves is as simple as flying backwards to deal with armor. If you think its coming, B3, SA and hold back. (This will obviously depend on what move is coming, but, for example, you can easily b3 fly away from KL EX Spin.) F4 on the other hand leaves you too close to simply fly away, instead, use your EX moves (DB4/DB2) to stuff armors. Again, this is only on a read and be cautious as EX DB4 is hella unsafe lol. Or, if you are feeling bold, hold forward and you can clip through armor moves and make them whiff, which you can then punish accordingly with DB4 or fly back in and start a SA string.

Here is a video of a Kotal Kahn trying to armor through the gap in the corner. This can be applied mid-screen but with an EXDB4 instead to continue the combo!

I hope that helps and makes sense. I'm trying to proof read it but I'm a bit swamped with work right now! It be a lot easier if I could do a vocal guide as words are sometimes lost on me lol. But yeah, the best thing to do is hit the lab, set the opponent to his/her best armored reversal and see what you can come up with!

Stay Lifted

 

[Orangutan]

Here is a video of a Kotal Kahn trying to armor through the gap in the corner. This can be applied mid-screen but with an EXDB4 instead to continue the combo!

Gav my war god still has PTSD from our practice sets at hypespotting.

 

[Nausea]

Gav my war god still has PTSD from our practice sets at hypespotting.

lmfao! I'll send him some flowers! Get your arse back down on Tuesdays!

 

[Derptile]

EDIT: Actually slight edit, if you're lucky to have a character that can function like a Swiss pocket knife and have multiple useful variations that might cover an occasional bad MU then that's taken into consideration a bit. Not in the sense like Kung Jin's Ancestral is dogshit so he drops a tier, I mean like how Ferra Torr or Quan Chi can change up depending on the MU. It should better explain some placements on here, I don't really see anything changing since every character has a best/goto variation anyways.

From the Tier list thread OP.

It applies to Ermac as well.

 

[Orangutan]

@Nausea Ill be back this week bbs xx

 

[Nausea]

@Nausea Ill be back this week bbs xx

Fucking glorious <3

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

lol that's too much read to make for me. I guess I have to work harder. Seems like a lot of stuffs about Spectral have to be adjusted based on matchups and opponents' tool

 

[stamatis]

@Paradoxxx

 

[Scott The Scot]

lol that's too much read to make for me. I guess I have to work harder. Seems like a lot of stuffs about Spectral have to be adjusted based on matchups and opponents' tool

That's a problem with the player then... Spectral has an answer for everything, it's up to the player to make the read.

 

[Geoffmeister]

REO proves that all of F4, B3, F21, B12, 22 cancelled into flight has a 5f gap or smaller, thus can't be counter poked by 6f pokes, and B2 ~ flight has no gap. It's true. Let's talk about F4 and B3 because they're the most important part of Spectral mixup. In REO's video he only shows F4/B3 xx flight on block, he can instantly does 234 the first frame after Ermac goes in the air so the gap between F4/B3 and flight 234 is small. However, if your opponents get hit by F4/B3 (which happens a lot because they're unfuzzyable mixup) Spectral has to fly forward a bit to convert into combo. My first issue is I can't hit confirm F4/B3 to choose whether I should fly forward or not. If I fly forward the gap becomes bigger and I can be poked/anti air. If I want to keep the gap less than 5f I have to do air 234 real quick without flying foward, but if they got hit by F4/B3 my air normals will whiff. In both cases I'm talking risk. My question is: Is it possible to hit confirm this? Or you have to fly forward everytime you do F4/B3 fly?

The second issue: midscreen flight 234 into d3 has a gap so if anyone armors through this I can't block. 234 into air DB2 has no gap but on block, some characters get pushed back further and my air DB2 whiffs. How to deal with this? How to stay safe after we use flight on block?

And the 3rd big issue is: I watched the video about B12 ~ flight tech to deal with all armors move in the game. But F4/B3 has different cancel advantage from B12 so the timing is different, I tried but change of success is extremely low. So what we should do with F4/B3 ~ flight to deal with armors move? Is Spectral's 50/50 really as safe as what people keep talking about?

Derptile post a tier list and he put Ermac in S tier. Reason: because Spectral has safe 50/50 and good flight pressure/mixup so he's better than MoS. After 2 weeks of losing with Spectral I don't agree. I would like to hear your opinions about Spectral vs MoS as well
EDIT: I edited to make my questions more specific

- the gap can be challenged, but it's ill-advised to use 234 after pressure-Levitate 34 is faster and enough to hitconfirm the teleport
- there are gaps after every hit of Levitate so you're putting yourself at risk anyway, you have to mix up attacking in Levitate with (not attacking at all and) moving (crosslevitating) or armor to deal with other characters' armor, there are definitely options but some are more (or too) risky
- might be the video I posted awhile back, afaik F4 has close to the same advantage as b12 so those armor dodges still work (need to be aware of positioning though), but b3 has even more advantage on block, getting used to this and hitconfirming the alternate combo on hit is a must
- I disagree as well on a fundamental level, offensively that's S-tier quality but realistically Spectral won't be able to perform it. I asked Nausea for his take on the matter but he thinks it doesn't merit a discussion and I'm a downplayer for bringing it up. Truth is, not even Sonicfox would use Spectral unless perhaps in a regional EU Xbox tournament. (and some of us know he plays Ermac quite well, he dropped him for good reasons)
- Derptile clarified that having multiple viable variations to deal with specific MU's will result in the character placing higher in tier lists, while it's HIS tier-list and he's free to do what he want with it, I think it would be more appropriate that as long as you can't switch variations mid-round this logic shouldn't apply

For me - and it will remain so until a future patch - Spectral is (potentially) A+, Mystic/MoS both at A
Reason is, I believe MKX is a game where offense is enough to win you the game, while Spectral DOES possess the best (or rather safest) offense out of the 3 variations, he lacks the space control and threat it takes for him to apply it (something Mystic/MoS can condition people into respecting). I've only found him to slightly take the edge over Mystic/MoS in about 3-5 MU's (doesn't mean the MU becomes positive for him) and going by that, he can't be classed (much) higher than the other variations, his neutral weakness still stands and is being addressed directly the moment you select him.

For anyone agreeing with Nausea/Derptile, I'll copy/paste the list of what I think truly makes MKX characters great and what it is that Spectral is specifically lacking, this includes but is not limited to:
- gapless pressure
- plus after pressure/mixups (while retaining damage potential, not exclusive to the corner)
- safe mixups (with damage potential, no gaps)
- reaching advancing mids (we're not counting f4, because it gets low-profiled)
- space control
- punish capability
- oki

Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong, and why Spectral is in fact dealing with all MU's as good as Johnny Cage, Mileena, Takeda, Cassie (actually make it about 70% of the roster).

*sigh* This is what I try to avoid on TYM and the Internet in general. I never claimed to be the longest (or best lelz) Spectral main. You were as polite as you can be when you're dishing out books and calling someone out but the most polite thing to have done would to be to maybe private mail me and maybe ask instead of a book and not convolute another thread with back and forth retorts that end up just getting messy. Ermac lacks tools but who dosen't? There is no clear cut number 1 character in this game and a random tier list that I agree with is not going to be cause for me to sit and debate with someone on a Saturday night over the character I play and why I think he's so good and like the fact he is considered a high tier. Why do you think I can't give you a straightforward answer to his fundamental problems? Is it because I play on XB1 I must be so bad? I have been playing the character since day 1 also, but I forgot, I was playing with my eyes closed the whole time.... Seriously though, reverse psychology bullshit won't work on me. Its not that I can't or won't give you an answer its that it just dosen't merit a debate right now. Pure and simple.

If you want to have a general discussion of Ermacs fundamental issues, take it to the Ermac forums and I'll catch you over there tomorrow

(This is probably the better place to continue discussing this.)
I wasn't using reversed psychology. And again, I'm addressing the character, stop taking this personal.
And I didn't say you claimed to be the best, being an active member on TYM known to play Spectral is enough to have some amount of influence, you're putting yourself in a position saying he's S-tier without really having the experience/results to back it up, that's why I'm trying to find out just how credible your opinion is or for those agreeing with it. Sure, I may seem like a dickhead for doing that but this is a discussion board for MKX, not the how-to-not-step-on-peoples-toes-while-bringing-up-a-fair-argument board.

That's a problem with the player then... Spectral has an answer for everything, it's up to the player to make the read.

Same can be said about any character having to make the read...
He doesn't have all the answers, but he's capable of executing those reads in situations most wouldn't be able to, doesn't mean he's not putting his meter and life on the line doing so, which is something a true S-tier character doesn't have to worry about.


Last thing to note: I don't want Spectral to be S-tier, I think he's fine the way he is, he needs this neutral weakness, but let's stop ignoring it's there and say he's S-tier because
a) it's embarassing to see Ermac players say he's S-tier, and then never seeing him get S-tier results
b) you're undermining yourself and other Ermac mains by saying he's S-tier, while a great fundamental weakness is stopping him from getting said results, while that's exactly the thing that should motivate Ermac mains to keep playing him and getting better results.. Because it's not the character that's amazing, if you're getting results with him, it's because you're a good player.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I'm not arguing with you when you're wrong about many things and clearly downplaying. Think what you want about Ermac. Results have got nothing to do with how good a character is and never has.

 

[Geoffmeister]

I'm not arguing with you when you're wrong about many things and clearly downplaying. Think what you want about Ermac. Results have got nothing to do with how good a character is and never has.

Fuck it, perfect logic 10/10 Ermac is S-tier and everyone playing him is just bad at the game (and everyone playing against him is top dog) the points I listed why I think he absolute can not be S-tier have been perfectly invalidated. I apologize on behalf of the Ermac community and next time an online platform for sharing information requests constructive criticism stemming from experience I will think twice (!) about spewing foul nonsense. I'm just a massive downplayer who isn't on the edge of abandoning a completely 100% fair competitive fighting game (even though I've been pushing for balance since release which you can check out yourself in my posting history).
On to the top, Spectral, two of the most established tournament players in the biggest competitive scene in the world think you got it in you, pull out your hair when you lose cause you broken af !

edit: reading this back it's a bit unnecessarily rude, my opinion on Spectral (/Ermac) won't change but I can understand - from a certain perspective - that people consider him S-tier. I don't think TYM/any FGC should be a place for animosity except friendly banter (which doesn't apply here) and there are better ways to get my point across so I apologize (for real this time)

 

[Scott The Scot]

Fuck it, perfect logic 10/10 Ermac is S-tier and everyone playing him is just bad at the game (and everyone playing against him is top dog) the points I listed why I think he absolute can not be S-tier have been perfectly invalidated. I apologize on behalf of the Ermac community and next time an online platform for sharing information requests constructive criticism stemming from experience I will think twice (!) about spewing foul nonsense. I'm just a massive downplayer who isn't on the edge of abandoning a completely 100% fair competitive fighting game (even though I've been pushing for balance since release which you can check out yourself in my posting history).
On to the top, Spectral, two of the most established tournament players in the biggest competitive scene in the world think you got it in you, pull out your hair when you lose cause you broken af !

I just said I disagree with you and don't want to argue with you. No need to be a dick. Move on.

 

[Prinz]

Level up bro. Derptile is god.

 

[Nausea]

I asked Nausea for his take on the matter but he thinks it doesn't merit a discussion and I'm a downplayer for bringing it up.

It didn't merit a discussion last night over the grounds you wanted it is all man. I just hate debates and walls of text.

(This is probably the better place to continue discussing this.)
I wasn't using reversed psychology. And again, I'm addressing the character, stop taking this personal.
And I didn't say you claimed to be the best, being an active member on TYM known to play Spectral is enough to have some amount of influence, you're putting yourself in a position saying he's S-tier without really having the experience/results to back it up, that's why I'm trying to find out just how credible your opinion is or for those agreeing with it. Sure, I may seem like a dickhead for doing that but this is a discussion board for MKX, not the how-to-not-step-on-peoples-toes-while-bringing-up-a-fair-argument board.

It felt like it. Just because I chose not to get into a long and winded debate over something so minuscule doesn't mean I can't or won't explain myself in due time. Let people decide for themselves instead of forcing opinions down their throat. You have your opinion, I have mine, at least on that I'm sure we can agree. You are addressing me regarding the character so lets not pretend my "lack of results" and other personal shots at me are, well, not personal. I can take it because you don't matter to me unless I face you in a tournament but your opinions on Ermac are your own and I respect that. I never once said Spectral was S tier. I think Ermac across the board is an S tier character and Spectral as a variation defiantly places Top 10 imo. (emphasis on imo.) You weren't a dickhead, you are a generic "debate with me right now and try to prove me wrong if you don't you cant get rekt head." You bring up fair points but again, it just feels like downplay.

a) it's embarassing to see Ermac players say he's S-tier, and then never seeing him get S-tier results
b) you're undermining yourself and other Ermac mains by saying he's S-tier, while a great fundamental weakness is stopping him from getting said results, while that's exactly the thing that should motivate Ermac mains to keep playing him and getting better results.. Because it's not the character that's amazing, if you're getting results with him, it's because you're a good player.

Embarrassing? You might be taking this a little too personal.

And no I am not. My opinion should not undermine anyone unless its taken personally. I might be wrong, but that is whats glorious about opinions.
I bare you no ill will and wish you all the best for your future endeavors. Good players will find a way to win, regardless of a tier system.

 

[Prinz]

Tbh, Spectral got exaclty what he needed in the patch - hover to be executable. This variation was good from the beginning except the hover input. Also, if he had an aerial dash, he'd be a little better

 

[Nausea]

Tbh, Spectral got exaclty what he needed in the patch - hover to be executable. This variation was good from the beginning except the hover input. Also, if he had an aerial dash, he'd be a little better

Or an air block

 

[Prinz]

Or an air block

For fuck's sake, dude

 

[Nausea]

For fuck's sake, dude

 

[Parasurama]

I am also looking Ermac Spectral, any guides? how long does the ascension strings take, are you vulnerable to anti air if it is blocked? are you plus on block after you cancel? if you cant block in the air, is the only safety- evasion? armor? and faster strikes?

 

[B. Shazzy]

did that nasuea guy only get 45% 1 bar corner combo? pathetic looks like im the best spectral

 

[Nausea]

did that nasuea guy only get 45% 1 bar corner combo? pathetic looks like im the best spectral

Bitch, please. 51% meterless.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

I also notice that B3~ flight can only link to air 3 mid screen, I'm afraid of doing air 34 because it's very hard for the 4 to hit, so after B3 my only safe option is pretty much B3 ~ flight air 3 D3 for a nice 20%, I don't want to yolo air 3 teleport lol