"Must I Remind You Of My Superiority" -- Lex Luthor General Discussion Thread

[miloPKL]

buff i want to see:

crouch cancel the trait startup with d,d, leaving lex armored in crouch state, so lex doesnt just get 125% damage and no trait because he was hit by a stray bullet while dash cancelling

 

[uhfutzafooken]

So a discussion in the combo thread lead to an interesting discovery involving stage bounce interactables. Any stage bounce is a hard knockdown, and you have enough time while the opponent is flying back into the foreground to put down a close gravity mine. They will have to block low as they get up or wakeup attack to escape the mine. They CANNOT backdash since the mine actually gets placed slightly behind the spot where they hit the ground.

This means they have to wakeup attack or deal with a nearly unblockable combo starter with F2 in conjunction with the mine. With trait up it's even better since single hit wakeups can be completely ignored. I'm going to do some more testing after work but I'm putting it out to the lex community to see if we can flesh out anything else with this setup, I think it could be a very powerful tool.

 

[rev0lver]

The interactable into mine setup is really good. With trait up that's almost a guaranteed reset against a lot of chars.

So I found something out tonight that some of you might have noticed but didn't look into as much. Maybe it was posted before but I'm not sure. Sometimes when you trade mb vacuum, like d1~yolo vacuum and they mistime their counterpoke slightly, they'll still be stuck in the stun as if the mb vacuum hit, but the mb animation doesn't come out. So when this happens and you don't get knocked down you can still full combo them. HOWEVER, the vacuum doesn't spend any meter and you can do another mb vacuum in the combo. So you can get a 22~mb vacuum or a 22~interactable and get a glitched meterless combo.

 

[ShadowBeatz]

Sometimes when you trade mb vacuum, like d1~yolo vacuum and they mistime their counterpoke slightly, they'll still be stuck in the stun as if the mb vacuum hit, but the mb animation doesn't come out. So when this happens and you don't get knocked down you can still full combo them. HOWEVER, the vacuum doesn't spend any meter and you can do another mb vacuum in the combo. So you can get a 22~mb vacuum or a 22~interactable and get a glitched meterless combo.

I didn't know you could recover in time to combo them. Huh. The more you know

 

[uhfutzafooken]

The interactable into mine setup is really good. With trait up that's almost a guaranteed reset against a lot of chars.

So I found something out tonight that some of you might have noticed but didn't look into as much. Maybe it was posted before but I'm not sure. Sometimes when you trade mb vacuum, like d1~yolo vacuum and they mistime their counterpoke slightly, they'll still be stuck in the stun as if the mb vacuum hit, but the mb animation doesn't come out. So when this happens and you don't get knocked down you can still full combo them. HOWEVER, the vacuum doesn't spend any meter and you can do another mb vacuum in the combo. So you can get a 22~mb vacuum or a 22~interactable and get a glitched meterless combo.

If only there was a way to trait up mid-combo...

That's an interesting little quirk I should implement D1xxvacuum into my game more. I usually use D1 to interrupt pressure and then use the hitstun to go for a 50/50, but canceling it into vacuum is a faster punish and it's not any less safe. It's probably difficult to test but how much is the gravity affected for the rest of the combo after the second vacuum?

 

[rev0lver]

If only there was a way to trait up mid-combo...

That's an interesting little quirk I should implement D1xxvacuum into my game more. I usually use D1 to interrupt pressure and then use the hitstun to go for a 50/50, but canceling it into vacuum is a faster punish and it's not any less safe. It's probably difficult to test but how much is the gravity affected for the rest of the combo after the second vacuum?

not at all from what i can tell since they're still grounded.

 

[uhfutzafooken]

Thoughts on the buffs that we're just announced?

In reality they're more like fixes than buffs but I'm glad they're happening. Lance blast could be a much more legitimate zoning tool rather than a nuisance with better damage. Probe sounds like it will be more real of a threat, although I can't recall many circumstances where it didn't stun the opponent if it hit so I'm not sure I understand that one. Super hitting through aquamans shield is whatever. Again, just a fix and really how often does anyone use lexs super?

 

[Tony at Home]

Thoughts on the buffs that we're just announced?

In reality they're more like fixes than buffs but I'm glad they're happening. Lance blast could be a much more legitimate zoning tool rather than a nuisance with better damage. Probe sounds like it will be more real of a threat, although I can't recall many circumstances where it didn't stun the opponent if it hit so I'm not sure I understand that one. Super hitting through aquamans shield is whatever. Again, just a fix and really how often does anyone use lexs super?

So REO had a theory of what the probe buff meant, and I think if he is right, it is actually a pretty substantial buff.

His theory was that "always triggered a reaction" meant it always does hit-stun, even if it was mid combo. Right now, if a probe hits an enemy while you are toe-stomping them with the b13, it will simply add the damage in from the probe, but use the hit-stun from the b13. If it always did hitstun, it would use the probe's "on-hit" frame advantage, even you where in the middle of another move. It would basically grant a free extra-mixup.

Though, I haven't done explicit enough testing to say for sure that as of now, a probe hitting mid-combo will use the string's hit stun and not the probe's, but I'm pretty sure this is the case. I will attempt to test that today, but not sure exactly how to do so....

 

[Galactic Geek]

So REO had a theory of what the probe buff meant, and I think if he is right, it is actually a pretty substantial buff.

His theory was that "always triggered a reaction" meant it always does hit-stun, even if it was mid combo. Right now, if a probe hits an enemy while you are toe-stomping them with the b13, it will simply add the damage in from the probe, but use the hit-stun from the b13. If it always did hitstun, it would use the probe's "on-hit" frame advantage, even you where in the middle of another move. It would basically grant a free extra-mixup.

Though, I haven't done explicit enough testing to say for sure that as of now, a probe hitting mid-combo will use the string's hit stun and not the probe's, but I'm pretty sure this is the case. I will attempt to test that today, but not sure exactly how to do so....

That's an interesting theory, but what would be the point or advantage of it? If they're already in mid-combo, wouldn't they already technically be stunned? I could understand how this would work at the end of a combo fro resets, but IMO, this theory is otherwise useless.

 

[uhfutzafooken]

That's an interesting theory, but what would be the point or advantage of it? If they're already in mid-combo, wouldn't they already technically be stunned? I could understand how this would work at the end of a combo fro resets, but IMO, this theory is otherwise useless.

Well it would basically work as a mini reset. If you catch them with a B13 and then they get hit by the probe, if it indeed works like this theory, the hitstun from the probe could allow you to start a new unscaled combo with B13/F2. I imagine it would work the same for B2; the probe would combo off of B2 and then you could start a new combo from a 50/50. I don't think it could work at the END of combos since idk how you could get the probes out and firing when you're already mid-combo.

If this is going to be the case I wonder how the hitstun will affect airborne characters. If you bop them with a F2 will the probe juggle them enough for followups into vacuum, or will MB vacuum be the only thing you could combo into at that point? Same question with D2 antiair; could it work like sinestros trait where you can juggle them into a B3?

It's a cool theory I wish NRS could just be straight with us so the community wouldn't have to play these guessing games, but it could definitely be a nice buff. I'm not sure it would change how the probes are used, you would still use them for pressure and to keep your offense safe, but they would have a pretty decent added bonus.

 

[Tony at Home]

Another part of the buff that could be huge is the lance blast damage.

They say regular lance blast does "more damage"
....and they say charged lance blast does "MUCH more damage"

Right now, Lex can end a corner-combo with a trait-up setup to pretty much get a guaranteed extra 50/50 and keep applying pressure.

However, even level 1 shields can lead into a 50/50 that either connects for a full corner combo, OR you can cancel it into a lance blast.

Against certain downed-enemies in the corner, with shields (even if it is just level 1) a full-charged lance blast is 100 % guaranteed. Right now that's not very useful, because a full charged lance blast only does 10% damage, but what if it does around 18% after the buff, maybe even 20%??

Here's a scenario I tried using the Flash as a practice dummy, and tested on all wakeups with and without a tech roll, also tested to make sure it couldn't be jumped out of:

End a setup combo with a level 1 trait-cancel, and get a free 50/50. If that follow up is something like an f2, and it connects, causing a knockdown, going into lance blast charge means: A) You will have a fully-charged lance blast when the opponent gets up, that they cannot escape. B) If they try and wake-up the level 1 shields will absorb the hit and you STILL will hit them with the fully-charged lance blast

It is basically unavoidable damage, and takes no meter.

Even if you cancel a b13 into a lance-blast holding-charge, if you have shields, the enemy STILL has no good options: they can either A) try to interrupt the charge by attacking, but your shields will let you absorb the first attack and get out a level 2 lance blast, which in turns leads to a free probe, so you can continue pressure. B) The enemy does nothing, or tries to jump out, or block, and gets hit with a level 3 lance blast.

I'll also note, that after testing, it appears level 2 lance blast is somewhere between +3 and +6 on block. What that means is if you have shields, a b13 that is canceled into a level 2 lance blast can't be interrupted, and will allow you to stay at better frame advantage than b13 normally allows (unless they can interrupt with 2 really quick hits from a fast string). But strangely, fully charged lance blast is basically zero advantage/disadvantage- you can't get any significant setups after the knockdown from it, but the damage boost will hopefully make up for that.

 

[uhfutzafooken]

LtLuthor what's your go-to corner combo into trait setup?

 

[Tony at Home]

LtLuthor what's your go-to corner combo into trait setup?

(these are the best I can pull of consistently)
They give me level 1 trait and time to block after so I don't lose out to a multi-hitting wakeup

Low-starter: requires a bar of meter
28 % b13, MB grav pull, F3, 11, 11, u3-trait

Overhead-starter
23 % f2, 11, 11, u3-trait

another overhead (can't remember how much damage this does, harder for me to pull off so I don't use it much...)
22D+1,b2, 11, u3-trait (I think you can get a d1 after the 11, and then get an u3 if your timing is good)

Once you've got level 1 trait at the end of the combo, it's pretty much a free extra mixup. Though I see alot of Lex players ending with probe; I feel like u3-trait is better than u3 to probe because it does the same purpose- allows you to keep adding pressure- but is just faster than probe. If u3-probe is better than u3-trait in the corner, someone please enlighten me because I hardly ever use it

Anyway, for this purpose, ending in trait would give me the mixup-to-lance-blast-charge that I think should be completely guaranteed with shields, and might be great given a damage boost in the patch.

 

[rev0lver]

if you connect u3~cc in a corner combo you get INSANE advantage and a free level 3 trait. you need enough gravity though or it will whiff

 

[rev0lver]

Against certain downed-enemies in the corner, with shields (even if it is just level 1) a full-charged lance blast is 100 % guaranteed. Right now that's not very useful, because a full charged lance blast only does 10% damage, but what if it does around 18% after the buff, maybe even 20%??

That's exactly what I've been thinking about. I'll do it sometimes if it's going to kill, but right now 10% isn't enough when I can risk that for another full combo setup. If it's like 18-20% it's worth it.

I've been working on block confirming strings into lance charge for when this comes out. I saw PPJ using this a little too. MB Probe up close also sets up a frametrap with this if they're blocked.

 

[Tony at Home]

if you connect u3~cc in a corner combo you get INSANE advantage and a free level 3 trait. you need enough gravity though or it will whiff

That's great!

Wow, I think I've failed to do an accumulated total of 189,249,335% of damage by not knowing about that...

 

[uhfutzafooken]

if you connect u3~cc in a corner combo you get INSANE advantage and a free level 3 trait. you need enough gravity though or it will whiff

You mean you need a long combo for it to work right cause every combo I've tried to make this work with the CC goes underneath and I didn't think you could let the U3 recover and then do the CC. What's an example of a combo that would work?

I've been working on block confirming strings into lance charge for when this comes out. I saw PPJ using this a little too. MB Probe up close also sets up a frametrap with this if they're blocked.

Do you mean a charged lance blast frametraps after a MB probe?

 

[Tony at Home]

Also, I found one of those 100 percent combos for Lex that is only possible on Fortess of Solitude with interactibles and 4 bars of meter and the MB mine glitch.

In other words, it is a totally viable combo

I'll try and make a video of it tomorrow and post the inputs after I get something to eat

 

[Galactic Geek]

Also, I found one of those 100 percent combos for Lex that is only possible on Fortess of Solitude with interactibles and 4 bars of meter and the MB mine glitch.

In other words, it is a totally viable combo

I'll try and make a video of it tomorrow and post the inputs after I get something to eat

This I gotta see.

 

[Tony at Home]

Its sunday so I'll be watching football all day, but in the meantime here's inputs the 100 percent combo:

Fortess of solitude, start with opponent in left corner (also, it is much easier if you use an opponent with a big hitbox such as doomsday) :

Grav mine, F3, MB grav mine, Ji2, 11, U3-MB grav-pull, crossup J2, 22 (throw spaceship, walk backwards one step), Ji2, 22, background bounce, B3, MB grav pull, J2, F2, Corp Charge.

***UPDATE AS OF PATCH****

Lmao, so I found this in the patch notes:

"Fortress of Solitude – Laboratory – The Ship swing no longer has invulnerable frames for some power characters.
Character Changes"

This probably means the 100 percent I found with Lex on Fortress of Solitude will no longer work, and can be poked out of after the 22 before throwing the ship. Also, it costs TWO bars of meter to add armor to an interactable object throw, so I would not be able to add that in to compensate, as I would go over 4 bars

 

[Tony at Home]

So, looks like REO was right about the probe buff.

Going on frame data, with a timely probe hit, THIS IS POSSIBLE:

b13 (probe hit) xx-Gravity Mine (f2 or b13 mixup)

Because probe is around +80 on hit, and Gravity Mine Startup is around 70, so that should be non-interruptible. (or at least any attempts to do so will end up working in Lex's favor.)

I mean, I'm not sure if that's actually something useful to do or not, but it's crazy just thinking about what could potentially be done with this. Can't wait till October 1st.

 

[uhfutzafooken]

I really want to know how its going to affect airborne characters. ie how substantial will the juggle be after a F2 or a D2? How swag would this be:
F2xxDD3 (probe hit, lands on mine) > F2xxDB2 MB > B3

Could also just do 113xxBF2 after the mine and suddenly Lex has a decent meterless combo. All conjecture though.

 

[Tony at Home]

I really want to know how its going to affect airborne characters. ie how substantial will the juggle be after a F2 or a D2? How swag would this be:
F2xxDD3 (probe hit, lands on mine) > F2xxDB2 MB > B3

Could also just do 113xxBF2 after the mine and suddenly Lex has a decent meterless combo. All conjecture though.

For F2 xx DD3 (probe hit, lands on mine)

Unfortunately, you will not have enough time for an F2xxDD3 before the probe will shoot. Any probe or MB probe will fire approximately just after you F2 hits after most knockdown setups. But that's actually ok, since you can't safely do
F2 xx DD3 without getting poked out of it anyway, most likely even if you have shields on. There simply isn't enough cancel advantage to make up for the massive DD3 startup.

I only theorized you may be able to safely cancel into a mine after a string if a probe hits directly after the string, such as (throws probe out, dashes in)F2(probe hit)xxDD3 After which, even if they blocked the mine low (which they almost certainly will, you are at +20 advantage (enough for another mixup). Basically, this is a meter-building block string, and throwing out probes and mines gives Lex a HUGE amount of meter.

Of course, I should also clarify, (but need to test this more) after a 22-probe ender, the probe MIGHT fire before you can dash up to the knocked-down enemy AND do either a b13 or F2 mixup which would give us the free mini-reset. However, 11-probe as an ender does give you slightly more advantage, so that might work. Ending with a b2 might also do the trick.

 

[whedgehead]

I still dont think ive used the improved lance blast -.- i really need to train myself to start throwing it out in certain matchups haha. Although my friend i play against uses Doomsday so i usually dont have a chance to lance blast so maybe that also has something to do with it haha

 

[rev0lver]

So a lot of character forums have closed their old MU/combo/etc threads and started new ones since the patch. I personally haven't because I don't think the info's now irrelevant, just changes in a few matchups. But would you guys like me to do this for cleanliness purposes? I won't delete the old threads, but we could have more up to date info without having to sift through so many pages.

LtLuthor
GGA pimpimjim
x5STAR
BDMao88
NKZero
ShadowBeatz

and whoever else