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Mortal Kombat 11 character playstyle options

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Variations are just the scapegoat everyone uses the blame the things they dislike about the game on. Variations being gone wouldn't have changed shit. You think Sub Zero wouldn't have the clone just because it was variation specific? No p, he'd still have that bs just given on his baseform. You think Mileena wouldn't have her Sai's? You think Sonya wouldn't have her mix-ups?

The game was mixup heavy cause that's how it was designed. Variations were one of the main things that BROKE the monotony. Leave them in, hell make more variations.
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
Variations are just the scapegoat everyone uses the blame the things they dislike about the game on. Variations being gone wouldn't have changed shit. You think Sub Zero wouldn't have the clone just because it was variation specific? No p, he'd still have that bs just given on his baseform. You think Mileena wouldn't have her Sai's? You think Sonya wouldn't have her mix-ups?

The game was mixup heavy cause that's how it was designed. Variations were one of the main things that BROKE the monotony. Leave them in, hell make more variations.
I don't know about more. I think it could be argued that gear is what "more" translates into. I dislike gear as much as I love the variations.

That turns into not even supporting variations competitively, which translates into competitive players being stuck without a lot content - again. It also means I end back up in lepertown where I don't belong in a competitive camp or a non competitive one. I felt alienated in a way due to gear splitting the player base.

I know that's addressing an off handed remark but I do think it's interesting to compare the two. That and I just don't like the gear thing or want what it created.

Soly an opinion based on my personal pov and experience. It's also pretty much what I expected gear create, so maybe I alienated myself by just wanting to believe I was right. I don't know.

End incoherent gear ranting.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Variations are just the scapegoat everyone uses the blame the things they dislike about the game on. Variations being gone wouldn't have changed shit. You think Sub Zero wouldn't have the clone just because it was variation specific? No p, he'd still have that bs just given on his baseform. You think Mileena wouldn't have her Sai's? You think Sonya wouldn't have her mix-ups?

The game was mixup heavy cause that's how it was designed. Variations were one of the main things that BROKE the monotony. Leave them in, hell make more variations.
If this is referencing my post I never said he’d have no clone, the clone doesn’t have to be broken. It’s fine in I2 imo
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Gear was a good way to introduce more casual players to IJ2 and it worked out pretty well I'd say. Only problem was how it divided the player base, but I don't know how to solve that one.

imo competitive versus shouldn't have been a thing. It should've been you commit to ranked I think, other games (although often not fighting games) do place gameplay aspects behind ranked only.

For example, R6 casual has 4 minute rounds with random spawns for both teams. R6 ranked has 3 minute timers and you get to pick your spawn. Tbh having competitive in ranked only wouldn't even be that hard of a transition since all you're doing is taking away tools from characters, it's not like there's anything extra to actually learn unless you really rely on gear.
 
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Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
None of this is true my friend, if you pick can pick one Variation and play just with that, that doesn't take away from the other Variations. It just means that this particular Variation fits you the best. If you one Variation from 2 to 3 chars, you can pick the right Variations for you with the minimal amount of difficulty for you. And you're not playing you're self at all, that's like saying you're playing yourself when you pick between 2-3 chars in a gave without Variations. But with Variations, you can make sure that the ones you pick fit you the most, so it only contrasts that. And as for picking 2-3 Variations from the same char, what you said can be said for a game without Variations regarding balance, and it doesn't matter if it's rare or not, it is still a valid option and it can be seen on several occasions.

The Variations are very well balanced, even if some are not used as others, just like that in other balanced games with no Variations for the chars, some chars are less used, so just like you can't say that about that game, you can't say that about MKX.

Also, I'm sorry but you can't disqualify an entire system just because of one char that you in particular it didn't work for, especially if you really didn't play MKX to the fullest and stopped playing it before the final patch, because that shows that you didn't investigate enough regarding your char, in this case, Liu Kang. I'm sorry if sounds like a jerk, but I for one not only investigated a ton of stuff for Reptile and the game in general and I still find stuff even after IJ2 was released, but I also don't judge an entire system or a game on the basis of just one char. That is just wrong and indicates a very narrow point of view. Even if I would've play a char which I don't think the Variation system doesn't work, I can't disqualify the entire system because of that char. Not to mention that even in the example of Liu Kang, you're still saying that only one Variation isn't good, but the other 2 are. So even on that token you can still have the Variation system but only with 2 per char. So your whole example only becomes even less valid. No disrespect of course.

I think that the quantity of Variations in the game give everyone the illusion that the Variations hurt the balance, but the system in itself is really a great system. Yes, having 100 Variations, which means 100 different chars, is almost impossible to balance, but 1) NRS did an excellent job at balancing the game, and 2) you can have a game with 100 different chars and you could've face the same problem because of the quantity of chars, while also still facing the issue that your char of choice will not fit you gameplay-wise and you need to look on the entire roster of 99 chars just to find another char that not only fits you gameplay-wise but that you also like as a char. That is why I've said long ago that all you need is just reducing the number of Variations per char to just 2, and then not only it will be a lost easier to balance, but you can still have more then one option to play your favorite char while also making more room for different chars. So if MKX had 32 chars with 3 Variations each and one more with 4, MK11 can have, let's say, 44 chars with 2 Variations, maybe even with one more that has 3. And then there shouldn't be any problem.
Ok I got far too much work to be doing these long ass posts anymore so this will be me last one.

I'd hardly say what I said was wrong. Maybe different opinions at worst. I won't go to repeat what I said since that's a waste of time. The example of Liu Kang is just an example of the system as a whole. Reducing it to 2 variations doesn't say that there won't be a similar problem. I could've given an example of a character who just had 1 variation that was good but I can't go in depth well enough to say that. I guess sub is an example (Grandmaster vs all) of that but I won't go in depth on it.

I'd personally just prefer to keep characters more tools by themselves. It gives them way more dirt, makes them far more interesting, makes them way easier to patch, and leads to more actual characters in the game, if NRS follows their trend of increasing the number of characters every game. Variations just feel like a way to artificially increase the roster size and give the idea of more variety when in reality, in a game with 36 character and 3 variations there's just never going to be characters that don't have nearly identical play styles, even within archetypes. Like run cancel characters just basically boiling down to all the same thing minus a few minor tools.

Also I didn't realise so many people had a problem finding a character that suits them.
 

Roy Arkon

I will leave my seal on you!
Ok I got far too much work to be doing these long ass posts anymore so this will be me last one.

I'd hardly say what I said was wrong. Maybe different opinions at worst. I won't go to repeat what I said since that's a waste of time. The example of Liu Kang is just an example of the system as a whole. Reducing it to 2 variations doesn't say that there won't be a similar problem. I could've given an example of a character who just had 1 variation that was good but I can't go in depth well enough to say that. I guess sub is an example (Grandmaster vs all) of that but I won't go in depth on it.

I'd personally just prefer to keep characters more tools by themselves. It gives them way more dirt, makes them far more interesting, makes them way easier to patch, and leads to more actual characters in the game, if NRS follows their trend of increasing the number of characters every game. Variations just feel like a way to artificially increase the roster size and give the idea of more variety when in reality, in a game with 36 character and 3 variations there's just never going to be characters that don't have nearly identical play styles, even within archetypes. Like run cancel characters just basically boiling down to all the same thing minus a few minor tools.

Also I didn't realise so many people had a problem finding a character that suits them.
I will give my last piece on it as well. I guess it is indeed a meter of different opinions and different point of views. I still see what the Variations system can and already proved can achieve in terms of giving players more options to play their favorite chars while still creating variety in the roster, and that the Rushdown-based gameplay would've still be in the game regardless of the Variations. And yes, there is a good amount of players that wanna play a certain char they like but they can't just because the char doesn't fit their playstyle and/or isn't too easy-to-use to go across that char's playstyle, I myself ran into this problem more then once, and the Variation system solves that problem, at least to a very large degree if not entirely.

There you have it.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I don't know about more. I think it could be argued that gear is what "more" translates into. I dislike gear as much as I love the variations.
I didn't mind gear either, if they had made an attempt to balance it it could have been good, pointless though because since you have to grind for it it can't be used in tournaments, thats the #1 problem, thats not an issue with variations




If this is referencing my post I never said he’d have no clone, the clone doesn’t have to be broken. It’s fine in I2 imo
So you think without variations, the game would suddenly be I2, with I2 sub? He'd literally be exactly the same character as Grandmaster is the entire point, they would have just made that the only form, with no other option. The reason MKX is the way it was is because it was designed like that, not because of variations.

I'm not sure who's post it was referencing I wasn't paying attention to who said what.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I didn't mind gear either, if they had made an attempt to balance it it could have been good, pointless though because since you have to grind for it it can't be used in tournaments, thats the #1 problem, thats not an issue with variations





So you think without variations, the game would suddenly be I2, with I2 sub? He'd literally be exactly the same character as Grandmaster is the entire point, they would have just made that the only form, with no other option. The reason MKX is the way it was is because it was designed like that, not because of variations.

I'm not sure who's post it was referencing I wasn't paying attention to who said what.
No that’s not what I mean, I was more saying the ice klone isn’t the problem, it’s more ice klone with 50/50s stacked on is the issue. And yeah I agree it woulda been Grandmaster, I said that in an earlier post that it just woulda been more or less the same as GM, I mostly meant to say that variations are a waste of time because the character woulda been Grandmaster pretty much
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
No that’s not what I mean, I was more saying the ice klone isn’t the problem, it’s more ice klone with 50/50s stacked on is the issue. And yeah I agree it woulda been Grandmaster, I said that in an earlier post that it just woulda been more or less the same as GM, I mostly meant to say that variations are a waste of time because the character woulda been Grandmaster pretty much
what I'm saying is, people blaming the variations for 50/50s are for the most part wrong. How many 50/50s were niche-variation specific? At best, some characters might lose the variation that gave them some dirt on their 50/50s, but I still think if they didn't design variations, that shit would still be included. Example, if Master of Souls was base form Ermac, they still wanted to design shit his flight like in Spectral for this game, so that would have been included too. Then you'd have Spectral with soul ball resets and it would be even more fucked up. Variations are just the scapegoat that people try to pin their complaints on because it was something new. It was really not an issue
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
what I'm saying is, people blaming the variations for 50/50s are for the most part wrong. How many 50/50s were niche-variation specific? At best, some characters might lose the variation that gave them some dirt on their 50/50s, but I still think if they didn't design variations, that shit would still be included. Example, if Master of Souls was base form Ermac, they still wanted to design shit his flight like in Spectral for this game, so that would have been included too. Then you'd have Spectral with soul ball resets and it would be even more fucked up. Variations are just the scapegoat that people try to pin their complaints on because it was something new. It was really not an issue
I think variations worked and didn’t work in a case by case basis. It’s hard to say yes and no for 30 something characters, for some it was fun variety and there was merit to learning all 3, for others there was one good one that made the others redundant. So yes and no on variations imo.

And yeah I agree, Cage would still be plus a million, Sub would still corner rape, and Sonya would still mix without variations
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
I’ve only ever played ij2 (competitively at least) and I think it would be cool to have a variation system. Only because some people like characters for the actual character themselves, not only the play style. And it sucks to have to switch characters to win. It would be better to just compensate for the tools you don’t have in a matchup by switching them out. But it’s just my opinion, and I’ve never actually experienced MKX so I could be wrong.
They've tried this already with MKX, didn't really worked out, which is why the majority actually opposes to the return of a variation system.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I think variations worked and didn’t work in a case by case basis. It’s hard to say yes and no for 30 something characters, for some it was fun variety and there was merit to learning all 3, for others there was one good one that made the others redundant. So yes and no on variations imo.

And yeah I agree, Cage would still be plus a million, Sub would still corner rape, and Sonya would still mix without variations
Even for the characters that were one good one and two ones perceived as worse, that's still better than just one good one. The lesser seen variations added so much life, hype, depth and personal flair to the game. That's not a downside. I think MK11 with no variations will be disappointing
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
My criterion to even consider a fraction of my attention for this title are the following:

-Noob Saibot has to be in the game and has to be competitively viable, preferably high tier. Everyone and everything else is irrelevant.
 
Having offense that requires specific defense (oh, low, throws, etc) make fighting games so interesting

I think the problem is when the mixups result in an hour long combo into a restand.

Make more 50/50 pokes (didnt we used to call those potato mixups?) and then any pop up strings or combo launchers mids/highs etc
 

NothingPersonal

Are you not entertained!?
The bigger problem I see with cariations is the base character. The reason I brought up Kano was his base model is pretty basic, but the variations are distinct. Look at Erron or Sonya on the other hand, why use a different variation, when you can use the one with the better tools because the base char already has good tools - good the mix-ups and 50/50. Why bother choosing? Just pick any and you're still ok. At least before their base tools get patched, after which all variations get fucked at once.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
I liked the concept of variations in terms of fun and variety, but it simply made the game a nightmare to balance (as the developers have admitted) and a game that aspires to be competitive shouldn't sacrifice balance in favor of fun.

They sold us variation system as a way to overcome bad matchups in some sense by switching from one to another when necessary, but in reality there were too many examples of characters with one viable variation and two mediocre ones that got surpassed by the first one, being super situational picks and barely used at competitive level.

I highly doubt they try variation system in mk11, specially if they only plan to give barely 1,5 years of balance support to the game, since they just know now they can't handle the balance of a game with 3 variations in such a short period. They might try with 2, but honestly I think they won't risk it this time.
However, my bet is MK11 will be MKX legacy in most aspects.
 
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Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
I liked the concept of variations in terms of fun and variety, but it simply made the game a nightmare to balance (as the developers have admitted) and a game that aspires to be competitive shouldn't sacrifice balance in favor of fun.

They sold us variation system as a way to overcome bad matchups in some sense by switching from one to another when necessary, but in reality there were too many examples of characters with one viable variation and two mediocre ones that got surpassed by the first one, being super situational picks and barely used at competitive level.

I highly doubt they try variation system in mk11, specially if they only plan to give barely 1,5 years of balance support to the game, since they just know now they can't handle the balance of a game with 3 variations in such a short period. They might try with 2, but honestly I think they won't risk it this time.
However, my bet is MK11 will be MKX legacy in most aspects.
The game just turned 3. How many people are playing it competitively? How many people did so in the last year?

On the other hand I do see the game is still active among those on my friends list. I still play it fairly often.

Fun is an important factor, and the competitive part of a game is a narrow part of a games overall existence. I'm not saying it's not important but I am saying mkx didn't sell the way it did because everyone on this site bought it.

Not everything in a game is created for the compeditor and I wouldn't expect them to dial anything back just because I did serve the competitive side of things.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
There is a compro
The game just turned 3. How many people are playing it competitively? How many people did so in the last year?

On the other hand I do see the game is still active among those on my friends list. I still play it fairly often.

Fun is an important factor, and the competitive part of a game is a narrow part of a games overall existence. I'm not saying it's not important but I am saying mkx didn't sell the way it did because everyone on this site bought it.

Not everything in a game is created for the competitor and I wouldn't expect them to dial anything back just because I did serve the competitive side of things.
There is a compromise between competitive balance and fun experience. It's called doing a good job, and it didn't happen in mkx, at least not at the level a company like nrs should have done it.

It's obvious that nrs mainly focus on sells and not in the long term support, since they leave their games to rot before 2 years. That wouldn't be wrong at all if they openly sold their games as the fun, flashy, casual and brokish experience they are. The thing is, specially since mkx, they are trying to promote the competitive aspect with tours and a lot of money on the line. But how can people take that aspect seriously when the company itself does not take seriously its own game's balance, which is fundamental in competition? A desperate final patch trying to change the core of the game basically meant...yeah, we royalty fucked it up all this time.

Nrs delivered in many aspects in mkx. They made a game that is fun to play, and the new netcode was a step in a good direction. But their balance team work just was not up to the scratch, and they know it. I hope they took notes from the experience in mkx and that mk11 will be a good surprise both in fun and competitive factors.
 
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Israel

Noob
I would like there to be a counter to breaking, an option for continuance in pressure. (This is ONLY if the game's mechanics were to resemble MK9. Aka dash blocking, no run, or stamina)

Scenario (assuming the meter were divided into 3 sections AND both players only have exactly 2 bars):
Player A is juggling player B, B decides to break mid combo, using 2bars. In those same frames, A inputs a counter breaker (same input, but in the opposite direction), using 2 bars (or more) which then causes the opponent to be hit rolling backwards, leaving A at plus frames. While B has to decide to either just block on wake up, or risk a meterless wake up .

So both players will be at no meter, with one player maintaining his advantage. Now if either player happens to have full meter, well then that would just make things more interesting.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
I would like there to be a counter to breaking, an option for continuance in pressure. (This is ONLY if the game's mechanics were to resemble MK9. Aka dash blocking, no run, or stamina)

Scenario (assuming the meter were divided into 3 sections AND both players only have exactly 2 bars):
Player A is juggling player B, B decides to break mid combo, using 2bars. In those same frames, A inputs a counter breaker (same input, but in the opposite direction), using 2 bars (or more) which then causes the opponent to be hit rolling backwards, leaving A at plus frames. While B has to decide to either just block on wake up, or risk a meterless wake up .

So both players will be at no meter, with one player maintaining his advantage. Now if either player happens to have full meter, well then that would just make things more interesting.
Defense sucked in mkx ----->>>>> Let's destroy main defense mechanic, ¡breaker!

Man...

If you spend two bars, you deserve room to breathe, no matter how much meter the other dude has.
 

Israel

Noob
Defense sucked in mkx ----->>>>> Let's destroy main defense mechanic, ¡breaker!

Man...

If you spend two bars, you deserve room to breathe, no matter how much meter the other dude has.
Yea defense sucked in Mkx. Thats cuz of stamina, run and everything mix up being a 50/50. Take that crap away, and back to dash blocking..then it could be interesting.

It could be tactically used in 2 situations:
1st, Player A has 2 bars, while player B has 3:
Player A just landed a hit and is going for game, corners his opponent, thinking "im going for game," while paying attention to the meter the opponent has left. Player B uses breaker, A counters, costing his 2 bars to keep the pressure going, but now he has to think, continue pressure or bait the wake up? As for B, burn meter to wake up, or wake up jump or something in hopes A hesitates? <-- Thats the type of situation would intensify the match and/or round.

2nd situation, both players have 2bars:
Player A has the life lead of 70%, gets hit by player B who has 10% left. Player A decides to break, while B counters, costing all his meter, because he wants to keep the momentum going cuz this could be his big break of making a comeback. Such as pressure or going for mix up.

This would bring something new to the table.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Defense sucked in mkx ----->>>>> Let's destroy main defense mechanic, ¡breaker!

Man...

If you spend two bars, you deserve room to breathe, no matter how much meter the other dude has.
There was no reason for me as the attacker forcing you to break being penalized for it because you want to take a break.
The stamina system affecting both breakers is a mistake, MK9 did it very well, characters shouldn't run or have stamina attached to it.
This alone buffed every character to have absurd long reaching normals on top of unsee-able speed into a 12f low or 14f overhead (cough, sonya cough... cassie... cough, Scorpion...)


Among my wishlist i really hope they take the stamina and run away from the game, dash blocking was swaggy as fuck imo.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Counter breaker seems kinda cool. I liked IJ2's air escape because there was some lit counters to it on a read