Mortal Kombat 11 character playstyle options

Discussion in 'Mortal Kombat XL' started by NothingPersonal, Apr 12, 2018.

  1. Roy Arkon

    Roy Arkon Noob

    I said that the negative feedback towards the Variation system is "sounds much more of an excuse to put an extra "reason" to justify one's dislike to the direction of the gameplay or to his claim of a character and/or Variation not being good". And your last paragraph, you just proved my point. You claim that the Variation hurts the validity of the chars, which is one of the two reasons I stated for such feedback. Not to mention that, like I said earlier, the Variation doesn't affect the validity at all, as there are a ton of unbalanced games from the past and present that have no Variation or anything similar. The roster in MKX is very well balanced, especially after the last patch, MKX is the most balanced MK game to date.

    You also claim that they should combine the tools of the chars to make each of them as one well rounded-char. That is also false, because then every char will fall on the well-rounded archetype and then there will no diversity among the chars. As I said, the other reason some people are against the Variation system is because they claim that this is what makes everyone to be based on Rushdown and thus make the game to be based on Rushdown, which not only couldn't be any further from the truth (as I said earlier, there are ton of Rushdown-based games that have no Variation system or any of the like, so it could've been like that even with it or vice versa), but if you do combine all the Variations into one, it will only prove that point even further, because everyone will be under the well-rounded archetype, as everyone will be able to not just play Rushdown, but also play Zoning, Grappling, Mid-range, Mobility etc; The fact is, even though each char can play Rushdown at least to an extend, not every Variation gives the char the tools of other archetypes. So Kano, for example, has a full Rushdown Variation in Cutthroat, a Zoning based Variation in Cybernetic, and a Grappler/Counter based Variation in Commando. If they were all on one Variation, and also do the same for the whole roster, there would be no diversity, unless if they would've take some of the moves out completely, let's say the Grapple and Counter moves of Commando, in order to make sure each char will have some unique aspects to it.

    As for Reptile, yes Noxious can be played up close, but Reptile's overall best tools are his projectiles, because they can help Reptile control the space and the pace of the match, and he is one of, if not the best Zoning based char in the game. But in order to take his Zoning to it's full potential, you need to use meter to stop his Forceballs at their place and/or use the EX versions of them, and in Noxious you need to use any meter for the Poison Gas, as the Poison Gas can help you even if you don't increase it even once in a match, and when you do, the regular version can be enough, so you don't need to use meter for the EX Poison Gas at all and you can save the meter for the his Zoning tools as well as his Anti-Zoning tools like his EX Slide and EX Klaw Pounce, but in Nimble and Deceptive, you have to use meter for the Basilisk Speed Boost and Invisibility specials, especially for the Invisibility, because they can't reach their full potential without meter unlike the Poison Gas, which means that you need to sacrifice at least some of his Zoning capabilities for those 2 moves. That is why Noxious is the most Zoning oriented Variation for Reptile.
  2. jcbowie

    jcbowie ...more deadly than the dawn.

    I don't know what you mean about "validity," I didn't use that word, but I do feel that signature moves of a character should be either universally accessible by that character or omitted entirely instead of stratified into different variations. This makes variations feel like watered-down versions of an existing character, which in my opinion is worse. Also, the fact that unbalanced games exist without variations has no bearing on whether or not the variation system affects balance which, incidentally, it still does. MKX was the most balanced, yes, just by virtue of the fact that it received more constant support and frequent updates, not because of the variation system. Removal of the variation system would probably streamline the balancing process though, and omit character variations that are basically unused because they are functionally worse versions of another variation.

    I disagree that characters will all fall into the same shoto archetype if given the tools of multiple variations. I don't think Sub-Zero would be less of a defensive character if you gave him multiple variations worth of tools. I don't think Jason is less of a grappler if you combine Unstoppable and Relentless. Liu Kang wouldn't be less pressure-oriented. Ermac wouldn't be less space control. Cassie isn't any less mix-y. And so on.

    Reptile wasn't meant to be an absolute case, but I think you actually proved my point. Both Nimble and Deceptive are rushdown-oriented. Why couldn't the tools from those two variations be combined to form one singular rushdown character with a more interesting toolset instead of two more limited ones?
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  3. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    You don't have to give them every tool from every variation; you can pick and choose what tools you want which character to have. Hell, he's not even saying you have to combine the variations from MKX even; he just means giving characters more tools as a whole over splitting them over multiple variations which kinda does, imo, water down what is available to them.

    I don't really know who claims that variations make the game rushdown based but I don't really agree with that at all.

    The point is is that giving characters more tools in trade for variations doesn't necessarily make every character less diverse. Not saying "Hey, give everyone rushdown 50/50's AND projectiles AND ...". It's just "Give X character more tools to play Y play style".
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  4. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    No variations or gear system, allows your character to have its own identity, allows for a larger base roster over a repetition of a smaller one 3 times each, allows for easy balancing, and allows you to explore a character fully all the tool it was given to him.

    The disappointment was real when displacer was the only raiden with teleport, i'm pretty sure a lot of people hated that.
    Some variations felt like they were really just there, do you guys remember good hat trick players?

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  5. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    I at least liked gear because it made you look cool. Not a fan of the stat changing or abilities though. It was more of a "Make your own skins" thing to me
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  6. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    They can bring customizable skins as long as we keep getting original costumes like tekken does, its like getting the best of both worlds.
  7. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    Well they can solve that problem by just doing as a "premier skin" or whatever they want to call it
  8. Roy Arkon

    Roy Arkon Noob

    First off @jcbowie regarding Reptile, you are the one who proved my point. If you mention only Nimble and Deceptive and ignore Noxious, that means you already realize that Noxious is indeed different then Nimble or Deceptive, so even if they were only 2 Variations per char including Reptile, Noxious and then another one that combines Nimble and Deceptive, you're still having the Variation system. Not to mention that the Rushdown that Nimble and Deceptive is different then each other, Nimble is about the juggles and long damaging combos and some plus pressure, while Deceptive's Rushdown is all about the plus pressure. Even Noxious' Rushdown is different, as it is based on Knockdown and Chip Damage, in addition to still be more towards Zoning.

    Secondly, yes you can put only some moves, but if you already have ideas for several moves that each group of them can be for a set of gameplan, why giving up on them? Even if your moveset is gonna be more diverse, there is only an obvious limit for how many directions you wanna take the character that you main, and if you give the character too many tools, it can be either fall into the well rounded archetype, (and like I said earlier, if too many will be under that archetype the overall diversity of the overall roster will fall short), or it can a character too powerful, which might be good on paper, but it can also turn to be bad thing in terms of balance.

    Also, the removal of the Variation system won't affect. And the game could've receive multiple patches (which some of them came because of so many unnecessary cries from the community because they to discover things by themselves) and regardless of the Variation system. And yes some Variations are much less used then others, but each Variation is a char on it's own, and in every fighting game there are chars that are less used then others. It is almost an inescapable scenario.

    As for the character specific moves, yes some classic are restrict to specific Variation, but that is all about using those moves to make each Variation unique, and they also extend them. For example, up until MKX, Reptile's Invisibility was a move that you would use for safe approach and offense. But in MKX you can use that move to extend pressure during combos. Also for the examples you @jcbowie brought up, Sub-Zero is an offensive char in Cryo, a defensive Char in Unbreakable, and a mixture of both in GM. Jason also has the Slasher Variation that makes him more or straight forward Rushdown char, and even Unstoppable and Relentless are are both playing the grappler archetype but differently. Ermac has the Spectral Variation which is his Rushdown Variation while his other two both play the space control archetype but differently. And it's a very similar case to to Liu Kang and Cassie. And you you look at those example, once again you only combine two Variations, so by that logic you can still have 2 Variations per char. Which BTW I believe this will be the case for MK 11, having 2 Variations per char, while also having 1 or 2 slots for non-competitive Variations like with the Gear system in IJ2.

    And @Cursa , yes there are some people who claim that the Variation is the reason for the Rushdown-based game, which is of course not true at all. Just look at this thread there.
  9. jcbowie

    jcbowie ...more deadly than the dawn.

    I still think you're wrong about the whole Reptile thing. The reason I chose to ignore Noxious is because you yourself specifically said that both of the other variations were rushdown oriented, making them more similar and readily combined, but Noxious could easily have its unique tool mixed with one or both of the other two honestly and still you have a well-designed singular character. Any combination of his variations could easily fit together to make a good character.

    Giving a character tools to function in most if not all situations isn't making them a shoto, it's just letting them access all elements of gameplay. Yeah, a character can be better or worse at something, but at least if they have a tool, however lackluster, to deal with any situation it's better than being like "oh well I guess I just have to struggle to reestablish my game plan if they eventually mess up."

    The variation system by its very nature creates more characters that will go unused simply because the worst base characters in the game will still have even worse variations within them, thereby making several characters unused. More powerful base characters have the opposite problem, possibly having a single variation that is indisputably their most powerful leading others to be disregarded. It's no good having 100+ variations for "diversity's" sake when half of them could see minimal use. I would also argue that having more characters in play, if each variation is truly to be considered a unique character, by default makes the game harder to balance because by default there's even more matchups to consider.

    Distinctive moves going into variations to make each one feel "unique" is exactly my point as to why the system is unnecessary. Why waste time making a billion variations feel "unique" when you can easily combine the elements that were going to make up each variation into one single character who plays uniquely? It's easier to design and makes characters feel less fragmented. The reason I use Sub-Zero as an example of why the system doesn't work is exactly because he has his "offensive" variation in Cryomancer: his offensive variation isn't the best offensive character in the game, and if you were looking to rush you might consider other characters first. However, those offensive tools on a defensive character (like Grandmaster but not necessarily with his OD defense) allow a player to change the pace at which they play, the strategy they want to pursue, and other game plan ideas on the fly instead of being like "oh well, this didn't work out, I'll switch variations next game. It allows play to be more dynamic. Sure, some tools like Jason's Slasher variation might have to be cut to make this flow better, but its exactly that: why have Slasher Jason in the game? People didn't play Slasher, and it didn't really make sense that he had a variation like that when his other two variations didn't really play the same at all. Having a character variation that is lackluster in the tools making that variation "unique" is pointless, people will just play characters who do that but better and who have base toolsets lending themselves to that playstyle. Might as well give the better or more interesting tools to one character and then scrap the ones that didn't work well or weren't used.
  10. Roy Arkon

    Roy Arkon Noob

    No offense to you but if there is one thing I'm 110% right about in this argument is Reptile. I already explained how not only Noxious is different then Nimble and Deceptive but also how Nimble and Deceptive are different then each other, as there are multiple kinds of Rushdown just like there are multiple kinds of Zoning and so on, and even in games that have no Variations, those multiple types of the bigger archetypes are represented in them, which is another reason why the Variation system is so good, because it allows you to introduce different flavors of archetypes more easily. And no, mixing all of his moveset would've been unnecessary, as Reptile is already a versatile character just with his universal moves alone, so those moves make each Variation feel more unique and add different flavors like I said earlier. You wanna play Zoning while still having great offense and good damage based on Knockdown and Setups? Play Noxious. Wanna play get high damaging combos with some pressure and a bit of Zoning with a character that is very hard to play but also really rewarding? Play Nimble. Wanna play a pressure type of offense that also allows to approach in sneaky fashion following the pressure? Play Deceptive. That is coming from the experience of playing Reptile in MKX since day one. Again no disrespect.

    Also a "shoto" is not right term exactly, shot is very specific type of it's own. Reptile is once again a well rounded char yet he is not a "shoto" by any means. But yes, making a char get into all elements of gameplay that is exactly putting that char in the well-rounded archetype and if too many chars would be like that that will hurt the diversity of the overall roster. That is not gonna make each char play uniquely, it can only make them all feel the same. Yes it is not impossible to make them unique, but it will be very, very, very hard to do.

    And yes some Variations will be less used, but that kind of thing is true for any fighting game. As I've said, every Variation is a char in it's own right, so you are gonna see some Variations being used less, just like you're gonna see some chars being less used in a game with no Variation. Just look at IJ2, that is super balanced game with no Variations in it's competitive field yet you see some chars being less used then others. That's not because that the balance is bad, it is because some chars are either easier to get into or just don't fit the style of one player, or maybe just some chars look cooler in the eyes of one player. And if you wanna make the balancing easier, just make only 2 Variations per char. I've already give that solution several times.

    Also regrading Sub-Zero, just because Cryo is not as good as the other offensive chars that doesn't change the fact you have the option of playing a more offense version of Sub-Zero. That's like saying in a game with no Variations "why I would pick this offensive char while I could pick that char instead"? It's the same thing, you could've no Variations at all and still saying that. Validity (which means, FYI, the overall strength of a character in a game) and archetypes are two different things. Also regarding Jason, why would he have the Slasher Variation? Because that's where he uses his iconic Machete. There is no way that you would put Jason Voorhees in a fighting game and not having his Machete involved in his gameplan in some capacity. I guarantee you that if MKX had no Variations, 90% chance that Jason's entire gameplan will be around the Slasher Variation alone, with only maybe adding his meter sacrifice mechanic that he has in Unstoppable. Not to mention that Slasher is the more simplistic and easy to get-into Variation of Jason. Just because that his other 2 Variations turned out to be the better ones at the very end of the patches, that doesn't take away the legitimacy of Slasher, because on the same token, Slasher could've been just as good if not even better then the other two, and in some portions of the game's life that was indeed the case. I can't tell you how many Slasher Jason's I've ran into online, and even now Slasher has it's uses as well. And of course this approach goes around all the chars, each in their own way.

    Again, give each char 2 Variations, and make each char a different approach in it's Variations.
  11. Gooberking

    Gooberking T7's Worst Player

    All nuanced debate aside, MKX was one of the most (if not the most) enjoyable fighting games I've played in almost 30 years. I learned a lot about fg's I never bothered to learn before because I was enjoying it (and because of seeing it played). While everyone played Piercing, I played Ravenous. While everyone was Hollywood, I was a brawler. And after dumping a 100 hours or so into Swarm Queen only to find out I would never be able to play the variation, I didn't have to give up on playing D'Vorah. I ended up finding my best character in her worst variation.
    Roy Arkon likes this.
  12. I would be fine with a variant based system or customization system, with some caveats. One: the variation system works out with two variations. This can allow for a more concise character build (in terms of character strengths and roles.) Scorpion, for example, is separated into three variations which can be put into two; with either Ninjutsu or Hellfire being part of Scorpion's base moveset. This can give more characters with same character diversity. Or two: ultimate customization. Allowing the player to choose which special moves they want to use, like an enhanced version of I2. It would be neat to see someone come up with kooky concoctions of Spearless Scorpion's with his swords and down minion.
  13. jcbowie

    jcbowie ...more deadly than the dawn.

    I'm not saying that I know as much about the character of Reptile as you, I definitely don't. But my point isn't that the variations are the same or something, my overall point is that combining the variations into a single "Reptile" would allow a player to be more creative instead of prescribing a single way that the character can play. It allows you personally to be dynamic, which I think is better than a character design system or a meta where you have to change characters to change tactics most effectively (MKX and I2 respectively).

    I think we both just have different ideas of how the characters should be designed lol, but @Gooberking is right, I love MKX even with the variation system, and regardless of how they change the system I'm gonna love it. My sincerest hope is just that Erron Black comes back so I can play him again.
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  14. galaxyjack

    galaxyjack Noob

    The problem with the variation system is creativity. Creating 3 unique variations for 30+ characters is not an easy thing to do.

    Sorry for my English.
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  15. Dankster Morgan

    Dankster Morgan Good luck getting through the shell

    My post here is only regarding Sub-Zero.

    Cryo is the “offensive” variation and Unbreakable is the “defensive” one, but here’s the real knee slapper....

    Grandmaster has better offense than Cryo and better defense than Unbreakable.

    So yeah variations are useless for him, I think Unbreakable was better vs Takeda but other than that there is absolutely no reason to touch the other two variations, it’s so obvious that SZ was supposed to be some derivative of Grandmaster but for the sake of throwing in variations, the base character gets nuked into a generic caveman 50/50 character for the sake of “variety”, which ironically killed all of SZ’s gameplay variety more than no variations.
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  16. Roy Arkon

    Roy Arkon Noob

    That's were you wrong my friend. Having less tools isn't automatically gonna prevent any creativity with that char, especially that Reptile in particular is already super versatile across all of his Variations and especially in Noxious, and that can be said about a ton of the chars in the game if not all of them. I can't tell you how many things I've discovered while playing Reptile in MKX, and I saw a ton of creative stuff from other people as well both for Reptile and other chars.

    I am happy that we can come to an understanding, I also agree with @Gooberking , he does put up great points. I also agree that, like I said, the Variation system will most likely come back in MK11 with a format of 2 Variations, And I'm very positive that both Reptile and Erron Black will come back in MK11 :)

    Sp true, that is indeed one of the best pros for the Variation system for sure.

    I'm not gonna argue about Sub's MU's or his overall placement in the game since I don't play Sub in MKX but only IJ2, but I do wanna ask: How exactly the Variation system turned Sub's base moveset into the one of a 50/50 char? That doesn't make any sense. MKX could've have no Variations and Sub could still be a a 50/50 char for the most part, or vice versa. I could be wrong about this one but last time I've checked, Kotal Kahn is a char that has no mixups at all, but only staggers, and he is just one example, yet he still has 3 Variations like the rest of the roster. Like I said earlier, that sounds to me like an excuse to justify dislike to the overall Rushdown based game of MKX and/or to the anger towards a character's supposed validity. Even if what you're saying is true for Sub-Zero in particular, he is just one char out of 36 different chars in MKX (and yes I'm splitting Triborg into 4 chars here). The Variation system does work for Reptile, and for other chars as well.
  17. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    I'm not going to speak for @Dankster Morgan about the 50/50 part but I find another problem with variations is the fact that since they're based off of the same base character, some variations are literally just better than others for the same character, or maybe do better in a few select scenarios. It was sometimes hard to justify picking some variations, imo, because "Well, it's literally the EXACT same character, but I get to decide whether I get tools X or tools Y".

    And then you get scenarios where tool X is like something ridiculous and tool Y has it's uses, but compared to tool X it's just almost never worth it. I would say a good chunk of the roster had this problem, whether to a large or small extent.

    I guess that comes down to variations not being "Varied" enough imo.
  18. AkioOf100

    AkioOf100 I play Raph

    I’ve only ever played ij2 (competitively at least) and I think it would be cool to have a variation system. Only because some people like characters for the actual character themselves, not only the play style. And it sucks to have to switch characters to win. It would be better to just compensate for the tools you don’t have in a matchup by switching them out. But it’s just my opinion, and I’ve never actually experienced MKX so I could be wrong.
  19. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    No such thing as being wrong in a discussion about this.

    Unless you go like "Lolz give everyone +3 6 frame D1's, unique game"
  20. Roy Arkon

    Roy Arkon Noob

    But that was one of the key points of the Variation system, and that is to cover the bad MU's. You can either master 2 or all 3 Variations of the same char to cover all of the MU's, or even just one if that Variation is good enough for it, or you can pick one Variation each from a few chars, and pick the one from each of them that fits you and/or the MU. Even in games that have no Variation, it is common to go for counter picks, it's just that in the Variation system, as the great Tekken player Aris said one time, a "soft counter pick". And once again, MKX is very well balanced, so it shouldn't be that much of an issue anyway. And like @Gooberking said in his case, even if one Variation is generally better then others, it could be that another Variation might the right one for you. Because it's not just about the general validity of the Variations, but their gameplan as well, and then when you find the one for you, you can turn it into a good Variation. That's probably the best part the Variation system, that you have more then one option to play your char.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  21. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    If you could just pick 1 variation to win most of the MU's in the game (or at least be comfortable with them, like 5-5's) then the point of variations for that character becomes kind of irrelevant. GM sub's a pretty good example of this imo. Obviously this can be balanced but balance is something that takes a long time, especially if NRS is trying to buff a variation without giving the character as a whole more/better tools, or nerf a good one without destroying the character.

    If you pick one variation from a few characters then the point of variations kind of falls apart. You'e either playing yourself by dividing your attention to two or more characters (Which is a fine strategy but your limiting your ability in becoming truly efficient with your characters) or your character(s) different variations don't actually solve the problem of the MU for you.

    If you pick 2 or 3 variations from the same character in order to counter MU's then it works, but again, kind of rare to get this on the first try, and often takes a long while to get the variations balanced due to mentioned reasons.

    The point of my original post was that when variations are unbalanced, it takes away the point of being variations in the first place, unless you purposefully handicap yourself into picking a basically worse variation of your character for a really minor tools.

    Take Liu Kang. Flame Fist and Dragon's Fire both had their tools, and were a good example of variations working, but Dualist required more effort to make work. He had significantly harder combos to land, some pretty useless tools (heal) or tools that were often hard to get going (damage buff), probably the worst projectile out of the 3, and arguably the worst pressure out of the 3. All because you get the highest meter less damage technically and some kind of gimmicky pressure options like MB red orb. Note I didn't really play too much into the end of MKX's life so idk if that changed too much but that was always my consensus on Liu Kang's variations, and how I developed me ideas on variations in general.
  22. Rizz091

    Rizz091 Noob

    I'd rather they just did away with variations for the next game. I'd like to see the gear system back though. But keeping it purely cosmetic for competitive.
  23. Finally doing it. Finally ignoring RA.

    Ahhhhhh that's better.
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  24. Israel

    Israel Noob

    No variations.

    You take a character, at full 100% charged capacity, then break him down into 50/50 or 33/33/33 percent. Its not the same. In fact, thats how you WEAKEN a character. I'd rather have him at full capacity.

    @Gooberking, -"Nothing is more disappointing than wanting to play a character but finding out the way they play doesn't work for you."
    I feel you, but its the same for one who dislikes variations. I played reptile, i hated the fact that i couldn't go invisible in any variation. They took him whole, then broke him down into pieces. Part of the reason i quit the game

    Its like the dragonball's man, you need them all together to get the job done.
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  25. Roy Arkon

    Roy Arkon Noob

    None of this is true my friend, if you pick can pick one Variation and play just with that, that doesn't take away from the other Variations. It just means that this particular Variation fits you the best. If you one Variation from 2 to 3 chars, you can pick the right Variations for you with the minimal amount of difficulty for you. And you're not playing you're self at all, that's like saying you're playing yourself when you pick between 2-3 chars in a gave without Variations. But with Variations, you can make sure that the ones you pick fit you the most, so it only contrasts that. And as for picking 2-3 Variations from the same char, what you said can be said for a game without Variations regarding balance, and it doesn't matter if it's rare or not, it is still a valid option and it can be seen on several occasions.

    The Variations are very well balanced, even if some are not used as others, just like that in other balanced games with no Variations for the chars, some chars are less used, so just like you can't say that about that game, you can't say that about MKX.

    Also, I'm sorry but you can't disqualify an entire system just because of one char that you in particular it didn't work for, especially if you really didn't play MKX to the fullest and stopped playing it before the final patch, because that shows that you didn't investigate enough regarding your char, in this case, Liu Kang. I'm sorry if sounds like a jerk, but I for one not only investigated a ton of stuff for Reptile and the game in general and I still find stuff even after IJ2 was released, but I also don't judge an entire system or a game on the basis of just one char. That is just wrong and indicates a very narrow point of view. Even if I would've play a char which I don't think the Variation system doesn't work, I can't disqualify the entire system because of that char. Not to mention that even in the example of Liu Kang, you're still saying that only one Variation isn't good, but the other 2 are. So even on that token you can still have the Variation system but only with 2 per char. So your whole example only becomes even less valid. No disrespect of course.

    I think that the quantity of Variations in the game give everyone the illusion that the Variations hurt the balance, but the system in itself is really a great system. Yes, having 100 Variations, which means 100 different chars, is almost impossible to balance, but 1) NRS did an excellent job at balancing the game, and 2) you can have a game with 100 different chars and you could've face the same problem because of the quantity of chars, while also still facing the issue that your char of choice will not fit you gameplay-wise and you need to look on the entire roster of 99 chars just to find another char that not only fits you gameplay-wise but that you also like as a char. That is why I've said long ago that all you need is just reducing the number of Variations per char to just 2, and then not only it will be a lost easier to balance, but you can still have more then one option to play your favorite char while also making more room for different chars. So if MKX had 32 chars with 3 Variations each and one more with 4, MK11 can have, let's say, 44 chars with 2 Variations, maybe even with one more that has 3. And then there shouldn't be any problem.
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