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MKX System Guide

Monox1de

Noob
Thank you very much for this write up. It will save me a lot of time explaining the basics to my friends who never research anything. Very Grateful to be certain about a lot of the information now. Thanks again!
 

MisguidedAngel

Greetings, Mortal
Why has no one asked why blocking and frame data works the way it does? Doesn't it seem super weird to anyone ;)? What reasoning was there to do it in this fashion?

Soul Calibur has a block button too and it doesn't screw up frame data like this.
 

dragula96

Android App Programmer
great work Tom, is this a prelude for a MKX Living Guide?
Hello, i am working on the "Living Guide" app for Tom, and i will be putting this guide in the app under a menu button called "System Guide" with Tom's Permission of course.

there will be a "Email Tom A Question" button at the top right corner for any questions people might have.
Will be available on the Android play store and on the amazon apps store.

here is the first preview of it:
 
Great info, thanks! Looking forward to the living guide as well. I know it was mentioned for Android and Amazon-any chance that it comes to iOS?
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
The blocking info isnt quite correct, the main issue is that in game frame data is messed up on many fronts, including startup as well as block advantage, not allowing for any baseline to be used to base a correct assumption on.

There is no additional unblocking frames from block stun. It is possible to just frame punish with normals.

Lets take Jax's f3. Forget anything listed in the in-game frame data. When a test is done @Somberness style, using recording equipment, it shows that it impacts in 11 frames. When done at neutral this is how it is. When you block something -11 (again, dont trust in-game frame data) it can be punished by Jax's f3.

TL;DR

Just frame punishes are possible using normals. Assumptions are being made based on incorrect in-game frame data. Unfortunately, the only thing you can do is manual testing using recording equipment or wait for the in-game frame data updates coming in the following patches to hopefully address it.
 

Alucard

The worst good player ever.
Is anyone else wondering if they're going to make the input buffering less strict? I played mk9 for a while then played DOA and it's gotten me suuuper rusty.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
The blocking info isnt quite correct, the main issue is that in game frame data is messed up on many fronts, including startup as well as block advantage, not allowing for any baseline to be used to base a correct assumption on.

There is no additional unblocking frames from block stun. It is possible to just frame punish with normals.

Lets take Jax's f3. Forget anything listed in the in-game frame data. When a test is done @Somberness style, using recording equipment, it shows that it impacts in 11 frames. When done at neutral this is how it is. When you block something -11 (again, dont trust in-game frame data) it can be punished by Jax's f3.

TL;DR

Just frame punishes are possible using normals. Assumptions are being made based on incorrect in-game frame data. Unfortunately, the only thing you can do is manual testing using recording equipment or wait for the in-game frame data updates coming in the following patches to hopefully address it.
Dizzy, is there anything we know for certain is correct?

My issue is that I'm attempting to use reversals to test how unsafe certain moves are -- but I'm not sure if the data for the specials is correct. Then I'm reverse-testing with my own normals by recording the training opponent doing strings on block, into blocking; but since I'm not sure if the data on my normals is correct, that won't help me much either :confused:

If there were a few specials or normals we knew to be correct, then we could at least use those as a baseline for testing certain things.
 
The blocking info isnt quite correct, the main issue is that in game frame data is messed up on many fronts, including startup as well as block advantage, not allowing for any baseline to be used to base a correct assumption on.

There is no additional unblocking frames from block stun. It is possible to just frame punish with normals.

Lets take Jax's f3. Forget anything listed in the in-game frame data. When a test is done @Somberness style, using recording equipment, it shows that it impacts in 11 frames. When done at neutral this is how it is. When you block something -11 (again, dont trust in-game frame data) it can be punished by Jax's f3.

TL;DR

Just frame punishes are possible using normals. Assumptions are being made based on incorrect in-game frame data. Unfortunately, the only thing you can do is manual testing using recording equipment or wait for the in-game frame data updates coming in the following patches to hopefully address it.
I'm editing this as I go. Much of this was written straight out of my time as NRS and there are parts that are outdated. I am still finding that I can punish something -6 with KL's reversal spin but not with a 6 frame D1.
 
Is there any update when we can expect in game frame data to be corrected/patched? I am sure it is a huge undertaking, so I wouldn't expect it to be immediately; I'm just wondering.

I would like to have a better idea of how everything actually works in game. It seems odd as @Tom Brady has mentioned, that you can punish something with a 6 Frame Reversal (KL Spin) but not a 6 frame d1. Is that intentional by design?

Is the spin able to punish something that is -6 (just frame) or is it only able to punish something that is -7? Am I correct in assuming that a 6 frame normal can only punish something that is -8 or is this a case of frame data being incorrect?
 
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Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
@Tom Brady @CrimsonShadow

The way reversals work currently is that it shaves 1 frame of blockstun off. They dont actually come out any faster. A special that is 11 frames will still hit in 11 frames, it just removes a frame of blockstun off. Something that is -10 normally turns into -11 when a reversal is used. That is how reversals currently operate.

This applies to all reversals except backdashes. Not sure why that is the case, but thats how its currently functioning.
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Is there any update when we can expect in game frame data to be corrected/patched? I am sure it is a huge undertaking, so I wouldn't expect it to be immediately; I'm just wondering.

I would like to have a better idea of how everything actually works in game. It seems odd as @Tom Brady has mentioned, that you can punish something with a 6 Frame Reversal (KL Spin) but not a 6 frame d1. Is that intentional by design?

Is the spin able to punish something that is -6 (just frame) or is it only able to punish something that is -7? Am I correct in assuming that a 6 frame normal can only punish something that is -8 or is this a case of frame data being incorrect?
Paulo made a post somewhere on TYM that the next patch would contain many move list data updates.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
I'm editing this as I go. Much of this was written straight out of my time as NRS and there are parts that are outdated. I am still finding that I can punish something -6 with KL's reversal spin but not with a 6 frame D1.
I guess the question is "is that d1 actually 6 frames or are we assuming it is based on the frame data listed"

Tom are you planning to do a living guide app again?
 
@GGA Dizzy I am noticing a lot of normal attacks and strings that are classified as mids that whiff on crouch. In some cases they only whiff on what would be hit, but will hit on block. Same with some strings.

Is this intentional, or do some of the normals need to be reclassified as high's or have hitboxes reworked? Is this also something that can be looked at for a future patch?

@Matix218 Tom and Reo are doing a Living Guide, they posted about it in another thread I believe.
 
@GGA Dizzy I am noticing a lot of normal attacks and strings that are classified as mids that whiff on crouch. In some cases they only whiff on what would be hit, but will hit on block. Same with some strings.

Is this intentional, or do some of the normals need to be reclassified as high's or have hitboxes reworked? Is this also something that can be looked at for a future patch?

@Matix218 Tom and Reo are doing a Living Guide, they posted about it in another thread I believe.
I noticed this too with Kung laos b12.
I have also noticed B12 hitting mid when it is almost point blank and when you try to do it from a little further away it will turn into a high.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
@GGA Dizzy I am noticing a lot of normal attacks and strings that are classified as mids that whiff on crouch. In some cases they only whiff on what would be hit, but will hit on block. Same with some strings.

Is this intentional, or do some of the normals need to be reclassified as high's or have hitboxes reworked? Is this also something that can be looked at for a future patch?

@Matix218 Tom and Reo are doing a Living Guide, they posted about it in another thread I believe.
Great news, thanks Morty
 
Hey Tom great post! Very informative. You may want to include cancels in the description though. Besides that, thank you! Great read, bookmarked.
 

STK

Beso de Muerte + Fantasía Oscura
About the punishment on block. Isnt it the same reversal and string punishment. What makes one 1f and the other 2f when trying to punish something after blocking? Im confused lol
 
I think that in a system guide the unique functioning of hitstun in MK (compared to other fighting games) should be explained.
After a d3 that is say +10 on hit you can block a fast 6f d1, but if you were trying to do anything else (poke, dash, armor, super) you would be hit by the fast d1. That is because block can shorten the hitstun while if you try any other action you got the full regular hitstun and d1 will simply connect. This is very unique to MK as in most fighting games you cannot take any action (either blocking or attacking) until the full length of the hitstun has elapsed. This create "only blockable" frame traps that are also almost unique to MK.

Actually, there is something like that in Dead or Alive, where you have uncounterable traps where you can only block the second hit and not counter it (in Dead or Alive, you can counter every attack). This is because you can only block in the first frame out of stun, while you can counter on the second. This create widely used setups where the opponent will be hit trying to counter if he does not know the frames and that the attack will land exactly on that first frame. But in DoA there is only exactly 1 only blocking frame, while in Mk there is a huge amount. Basically, regular hitstun is cut short by blocking.
 

ili6741

Noob
Something I don't quite get yet system-wise is how punishing works when you are holding down the block button while doing your "punish". I'm now to the MK series so I don't know if this is common knowledge, but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.

Say you block sub-zeros overhead and want to punish it with a normal. After you'be blocked something you seem able to get attacks out without releasing the block button, but it appears quite wonky to me. I might just be imagining things but the window for when you should press the button (after having blocked something) seems to be different depending on wheter you are holding block or not. There's also the peculiar case where it wont let you get a 1 out while holding block sometimes...

My guess is that he game allows you to input commands during the reversal input buffer and have them take priority over the block command. Is this correct?

This "block while mashing attacks" seems to make attacks such as d'vorahs bug spray (1-10 hits) a non-mixup since you can just hold block the entire time while mashing whatever normal you want, guaranteeing the punish.
 

aj1701

Premium
Premium Supporter
Hello, i am working on the "Living Guide" app for Tom, and i will be putting this guide in the app under a menu button called "System Guide" with Tom's Permission of course.

there will be a "Email Tom A Question" button at the top right corner for any questions people might have.
Will be available on the Android play store and on the amazon apps store.
No Windows Phone 8.1?