MKX and Command Grabs

[RYX]

In MKX, a lot of the command grabs are a double-edged sword; while being potent tools in their own right, I can't help but notice that most of them force distance between you and the opponent and you're often at very little advantage because of it. This is almost a polar opposite to the command grabs of Injustice, where they were both powerful mix-ups AND potent at setting up for the knockdown game. I think that this is a major design error on some characters reliant on said command grab, but I'd like to compare them first and ask what TYM thinks of the change.

In Injustice:
- Command grabs were generally slower, with Bane's outranging any grab in MKX
+ More frame advantage
+ Left your opponent close to you (most of the time)
+ Recovered faster
- Less corner carry
+ Most of the grapplers did more damage relative to the rest of the cast

In MKX:
+ Much faster start-up, very difficult or impossible to react to some
- Most of them have horrible recovery because of the above
- Very little chance of applying pressure post-knockdown midscreen after a throw
+ While you lose most ways to pressure a knockdown midscreen, it remains potent in the corner.
+ Since they throw the opponent further, you can get them to the corner faster.
- Most of them have damage more in line with the rest of the cast

Do the benefits of speed and corner push outweigh the issues that losing momentum brings? Would it be too powerful to give MKX's premier grapplers stronger midscreen pressure?

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Idk, I come from USFIV, so the grappler archtype for me is that they may not hit you as much, but when they do it's supposed to HURT, and if it's not the standard zhangief/thawk it's more like abel where it's about mixups and conditioning your opponent to block using your relatively fast speed compared to the bigger grapplers.

I am having tons of fun with commando so far, but like you say there doesn't really seem to be any advantage I'm getting for playing a grappler other then having an unblockable attack and a parry. After getting a rib break or even a power slam off, like you say, it doesn't really give me a lot of room for follow up. The oki game after a throw is pretty weak it feels.

edit: I'd rather have less corner carry if it helped my character be more the type where you HAVE to keep them out or their close up pressure is sickly. That just feels like it makes sense for a grappler, but I still enjoy just having the ever present mixup of command grab if they block.... problem is anybody who isn't a "good" player is never not pressing a button it seems... so makes it hard to know if I'm even playing correctly so far lol.

 

[Chaosphere]

So sick of command grabs from injustice. Lol. I don't have any good arguments though. *wears propeller hat*

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

We need even more Bane-like grabs in MKX.

 

[Eddy Wang]

i love that are duckable and hella punishable on whiff, good way to balance grabs nrs.

 

[The Ultimate]

The command grabs in MKX are fine, the only thing I dislike is their damage. I'm used to Injustice where Grundy's command grabs did over 20%. In MKX, command grabs barely break 19%, and that's with meter.

It's no big deal, MKX is a different game from Injustice, so I can deal. I'm particularly interested to see if Tremor perhaps will break the MKX grappler mold, and he'll be the game's most effective grappler. Time will tell.

 

[podizzler3000]

is tremor a grappling character? commando kano is grapple style

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Yeah.. that's really all I think we need is a little bit more damage for getting up close and banking it all on a throw or a tickgrab. we need more reward if the grabs by themselves arent going to give us a strong oki game. Right now there's really no reason not to get in Commando's face and just pressure pressure pressure, whereas in USFIV (a different game, I realize, so sorry I keep comparing) You can't stay in on a zhangief...if you do it's suicide because you WILL just get reversal command grabbed. In this game there's not really that fear. Opponents only eat 16% for me blocking correctly unless I wanna spend meter and punish with a EX ball cancel combo midscreen and get 35%. If my parry game were more on point it may be a little easier, but just raw parries are a gamble too. Guess the wrong height or timing and it's EASILY punishable, whereas if it hits I just get a small grip of dmg, 17% I think. Kano's poke game is really strong and I think his normals are powerful... so so far I've been getting by but there doesn't seem to be a lot of conversion opportunities off of just pokes, with 112+ball or knife being the main punish.

edit: these are just thoughts of course, I feel like I have a lot more of "git gud" to do, and I'm trying to get extended offline sets to really gauge where my play is and if it's effective, but it's been a little difficult.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Grapplers took a huge step back from Injustice to MKX in my opinion. No characters in this game are anywhere near as compelling to me as a lifelong grappler main as Bane and Grundy were in Injustice. And I've been maining them since Gief and Hawk. Really hoping Tremor does it for me.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I'm banking my money on tremor having a godlike grapple variation too, though I love how Kano has zoning options on top of grapples.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

I'm banking my money on tremor having a godlike grapple variation too, though I love how Kano has zoning options on top of grapples.

I totally respect that but I'm all about the grapplers who just have a way to get through zoning instead of their own zoning capabilities, myself.

The biggest problem though is which grappler in this game is really terrifying once they get in? In Injustice they had huge damage and armor on top of armor, in SF they have huge damage and 1-2 frame reversals, etc. You're compelled to keep grapplers out at all costs. In MKX grapplers don't really inspire that same fear as far as I can tell.

 

[Zatoichi]

Commando Kano is a mind fuck type of grappler with a really strong oki game. Try to wake up and get parried, do nothing or block and get grabbed, try to NJ the grab and get B1 into full combo. I do wish his grabs did a tad more damage, doing 18/19 meterless and doing 22/23 MB damage. Who are the other command grab characters in this roster? Wrestler Jax and non-slasher Jason? Does Ferra/Torr count too? Then there's Sun God Kotal Kahn.

 

[RYX]

I think Commando Kano isn't that great of an example because although he is definitely centered around his command grabs, he's also the most versatile grappler thanks to his decent long-range options with knives and balls

Someone like Goro suffers a bit from his grab throwing them so far. Not enough to ruin him, mind you, but you can definitely feel it becoming a little annoying. He has the armor on top of armor thing going for him (as does Lackey Torr but his charge isn't that good otherwise) but his pressure is really mediocre and he can't really sustain a strong up-close game if a punchwalk gets blocked. Granted, he builds meter like a madman when he's trapped you in the corner since pushback becomes so negligible.

I want to say something more about Lackey Torr's grab but I've only just started playing him so I don't have the right to speak on how good he is. I agree with the general assessment that if the oki game isn't going to become like Injustice, then the damage probably should be. I feel like these guys should probably be exceeding most of the cast in damage output rather than being middle of the pack.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Commando is certainly more your mind games grappler, that is for sure. You make it almost sound like we get a free parry on people waking up though and that's FAR from true, still have to guess how they're going to wakeup and if the guess is wrong eat a big punish.

his grab does 16/17% normal and 20/21 when EX I believe.

 

[cR Biohazard]

Pretty sure that Lackey Torr has better range on his command grab than Bane. Check out his grab at max range, it's insane.

 

[Zatoichi]

Commando is certainly more your mind games grappler, that is for sure. You make it almost sound like we get a free parry on people waking up though and that's FAR from true, still have to guess how they're going to wakeup and if the guess is wrong eat a big punish.

his grab does 16/17% normal and 20/21 when EX I believe.

If you know what the opponent's wake up options are and if they're playing aggressively, it kinda is. Mileena is completely free to parries since everything but her projectiles can be parried. Just KNOWING Kano has a parry makes some people hesitate on wake up. Besides I'm strictly speaking online, way too many people aren't being respectful and throw out too many wake up attacks. That makes them fairly predictable.

Yeah, his overall grab damage should be buffed IMO.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I suppose you do have a point, I'm just not at the point yet where I know everybody's optimal wakeup options, but there are some like Mileena who only really have low options for the most part and could definitely be easier to guess.

 

[RYX]

for the record blood god kotal destroys commando kano, because he has no wakeups to parry

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

Commando Kano is a real grapler, 14 frames start up is not fast at all, (zangief 3), very slow recover, 17% damage and 21 EX not much, and he hasn't any antiair grab wtf, kotal has it and commando kano suck and even if he try anti air with ball, jump and kick breaks it

 

[Zatoichi]

Commando Kano is a real grapler, 14 frames start up is not fast at all, (zangief 3), very slow recover, 17% damage and 21 EX not much, and he hasn't any antiair grab wtf, kotal has it and commando kano suck and even if he try anti air with ball, jump and kick breaks it

• In the middle of a match, a 14 frame unblockable grab can be a tad difficult to avoid.
  
• I Agree that grab damage is lacking
• Air Ball? Why aren't you using his B1? It's one of the best Anti-Airs in the game. Kano doesn't even need an anti-air grab when he can B1 into full combo.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

B1 and even using his air ball as an anti air is better then upballI I think. Hell, people in the kano forums have been talkin about even using choke as an AA, I don't like it so I don't.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I never thought I'd see the day when people missed bane's command grab. I think I can hear 16 Bit screaming from across the Atlantic as he reads this

 

[LRK128]

Having played 92 matches against a good commando kano this morning I think his command grab should do maybe 3-4% more but that's it. personal opinion it just seems like he has to hit you a lot more than you have to hit him

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Because his only midscreen combos are off of an AA or off of a high starter and with meter burn. Other then that he's all punishes and pokes + grabs and corner pressure for damage. I don't think he's bad by any means you just have to get your damage in different ways and it's really weird compared to how most other characters play this game.

 

[Qwark28]

People are complaining about 17% command grabs.

Meanwhile, Kotal's command grab is just as slow and bad on whiff but on L3 it doesn't even do the damage Kano's does.