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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
I also find myself using caged rage a LOT.
I was starting to think I was the only one who uses this a ton. In fact, I think CR is a large part of his game. It's super easy to get out, even the high level 1 attack.


Edit: Oh and if brass knuckles would maybe last another 5-10 seconds, I think I'd use it more too. By the time you get in and find a way to use your fists, it runs out. It's feeling more and more worthless. Especially since you cant safely activate it in the corner. If the ability was retooled as a "green aura" powerup and you could get enhanced chip with your feet too, it'd be fantastic
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Hmm that's weird I get d2 mashed co stantly out of caged rage. They don't care if they get punished if I do nutpunch instead. They just mash d2 forever.
 

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
Hmm that's weird I get d2 mashed co stantly out of caged rage. They don't care if they get punished if I do nutpunch instead. They just mash d2 forever.
That's why I don't use it at ALL. I really don't find this ability to be any useful.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
That's why I don't use it at ALL. I really don't find this ability to be any useful.
It's about mind games. Cage is an extremely honest character so you need every advantage you can get. Anything to keep them guessing. Getting to level 2 Caged Rage has zero down sides. They block a string, you end with level 2...if they block it, you're on level 3 and have lost nothing. On hit, it's your turn to go again. Level 3 is pretty much a guaranteed hit and knockdown.

If they start looking for Caged Rage, you can do something else. Becoming predictable is how you lose in fighting games.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Hmm that's weird I get d2 mashed co stantly out of caged rage. They don't care if they get punished if I do nutpunch instead. They just mash d2 forever.
That's why I don't use it at ALL. I really don't find this ability to be any useful.
If they’re mashing f4 caged rage and b3 caged rage, just complete the strings until they learn to block, or take the free win without caged rage. As others have said, it’s about conditioning. Better players are more likely to respect your strings from the get go, but if not, it’s about making them respect you and then punishing them for doing just that.

If you’ve hit them with a few 124’s and f3,44 amped forceballs, you should be able to work in caged rage cancels there as well.

If they’re d2 mashing and winning on the other hand, you’re doing something wrong, not them.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
It's about mind games. Cage is an extremely honest character so you need every advantage you can get. Anything to keep them guessing. Getting to level 2 Caged Rage has zero down sides. They block a string, you end with level 2...if they block it, you're on level 3 and have lost nothing. On hit, it's your turn to go again. Level 3 is pretty much a guaranteed hit and knockdown.

If they start looking for Caged Rage, you can do something else. Becoming predictable is how you lose in fighting games.
It reminds me of MK9 Johnny, in which despite his larger-than-life personality, he didn't really have gimmicks with regards to his fighting and was pretty straight-forward in his gameplan, but what he did (his pressure game), he did really well.
 
D

Deleted member 35141

Guest
Mid screen I'll end combos in nutpunch I'll take +5 over putting them far away with shadow kick unless I'm closer to the corners.

He also has one of the fastest d4 if I remember correctly, I've also been using the short hops more too really anything to be as random as possible.

The only changes I'd like to see is him having 1 forward advancing mid like most other characters and instead of flippy kick give me rising shoulder.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
In regards to tier lists- I'll put it this way, I can believe Johnny is mid tier, even high mid tier with his hitboxes fixed (f344 last hit whiffs Erron Black btw).

The thing is, I need to see it first. Not some ranked trash, not some local. I need to see a decent Johnny go up against a high level player who knows the counterplay in a real tournament to know if all the techs we've been discussing are enough.

Online: D4 jail feels good. F4 into caged rage feels good. Nutpunch into throw or not throw feels good.

But I need assurance it won't all fall apart vs someone decent enough to sit in crouch block and D2 90% of our stuff on reaction.

My 2 cents.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Here's some games with losses this time. Any tips are appreciated. Don't let the first round fool you, I lose that game lol.
@Wrath0594
Aw, hell yeah my dude. I need to upload too sometime, at least for transparencies sake.

Right off the bad, noticing a couple things. In my opinion, if anyone wants to play Johnny, they gotta be comfortable with movement. You should get into the habit of cancelling single dashes into blocks, it's so much better than walking, especially if you're scared of his teleport. If you can, at least learn the first part of wavedashing, linking 2 dashes with fwd fwd, block, fwd (block if needed). That's what I stick with most of the time, and it's enough. Crucial vs zoners and lets you sneak in d4's and f4's from deceptively far.

For your bnb, after the nutpunch amp, work in a dash in s2 before your f4 to optimize your dmg. Easier than b2, only loses 5dmg. And off jump in kick you can dash in and land f44 reliably. Better than raw shadowkick. And Noob teleport is negative a billion. You can get a bigger punish than d2 off it.

The biggest thing I'm seeing is an overall issue where it seems like at a lot of moments in the match, you're unsure of what you want to do especially in the first 3 games. There's a lot of spots where you chill midrange, you aren't throwing fireballs, and you aren't trying to close the space. You never need to fear Noob teleport if your movement is solid. It's suicide for Noob to use it more than once or twice a set. It seemed like you were scared to jump too. I know jump in 2 is risky, but as Johnny you have to sneak them in for the jail where you can. There's only 1 or 2 spots where you used f4 > amp forceball (use this more in general if they're blocking f4), and that can act as one way to set up a ji2 using the + frames from the forceballs.

You need to approach the game in general with a plan in mind. I was thinking of making a full flowchart for JC the other day based on what goes through my head when I play him, so I might get on that. Basically you should have an entire game plan that only changes once your opponent has given you reason to change it. I'm ending every combo with nutpunch > throw until they show me they know the answer to that. I'm f4ing into caged rage every time till they interupt it. I'm contesting every wakeup until they show me they can up3 (you did this well!). I'm doing jump in 2 constantly until they show me they can anti-air. I'll throw out nothing but f3 until they start to duck it (use this more! It's so much better than f44 if they don't). Like plan A could be "get him in range for f344". And before it's even landed, you should be thinking forward, "if it lands, imma nutpunch confirm and go for X combo ender. If he blocks it, I think he'll approach, so I'll look to d4 and jail him into another f3." Or "he turtled after blocking the last one, so I'll jump in." Or "he's a button masher so I'll just cancel into amped forceballs and keep the pressure either way."

Not to be insulting, but you're not guna need the full arsenal vs that Noob. One, maybe 2 solid options and he would have crumbled, and it seemed like you did have him figured out by game 4 and 5 until he switched. But once you fight some crazy good people, that's where us Johnny mains get to play all these little mind games, whereas the Sub Zero player just flips a coin over and over and merely hopes for the right call. Guess which is more fun?

Ah, sorry it's a wall of text, but since you went through the effort of putting the vid up, I wanted to give ya something substantial. You play pretty well, some solid footsies in close range, good understanding of how to pressure him for the most part. Keep wreckin fools, and I hope this helps. :)
 
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Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Some thoughts about ending combos in nutpunch.

It sets up a favorable standing reset where you have significant advantage.

+5 is very good. You get to check your opponent for free with a d1/d3/d4.

d1 is 7 frames and +10 on hit, -3 on block
d3 is 9 frames and +10 on hit -4 on block
d4 is 8 frames! and +17 on hit -6 on block

This will do 2 things:
A. If they get hit, you know they were mashing or ducking waiting for throw. If they block, you know that you could have thrown them. Remember for next time.
B. It safely sets up an even better situation where you can go into some mid frame traps or even a hop overhead. You could do more walk back into b3/b2 stuff or after a d4 go into b3 pressure.

It's basically putting you 1 step away from where you really want to be frame data wise.
 

DeftMonk

Warrior
I swapped to liu recently after realizing changing the hold button for crushing blow basically just allows u to annihilate someone in two combos with liu the last round haha. But his game plan is (while similar to johnny’s imo) just not as fun for some reason. Thinking of going back to Johnny.

Who you guys have trouble with? Curious who his bad mu’s are.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Some thoughts about ending combos in nutpunch.

It sets up a favorable standing reset where you have significant advantage.

+5 is very good. You get to check your opponent for free with a d1/d3/d4.

d1 is 7 frames and +10 on hit, -3 on block
d3 is 9 frames and +10 on hit -4 on block
d4 is 8 frames! and +17 on hit -6 on block

This will do 2 things:
A. If they get hit, you know they were mashing or ducking waiting for throw. If they block, you know that you could have thrown them. Remember for next time.
B. It safely sets up an even better situation where you can go into some mid frame traps or even a hop overhead. You could do more walk back into b3/b2 stuff or after a d4 go into b3 pressure.

It's basically putting you 1 step away from where you really want to be frame data wise.
Nice stuff. I had a post where I was gonna talk about this in comparison to the other combo specials, but you basically did it better than I planned on it.

Eh, might as well still do it. As a rule of thumb, as you stated here, Johnny's combos should almost always be ended with Nutpunch due to the restand. I know its been that way since at least MK9 (probably before that as well, but I didn't play the PS2 games), but since there's multiple ways of getting up after knockdown (delayed wakeup, wakeup roll, wakeup attack, a crouching poke), this makes sure that the opponent has access to none of them, which helps to make up for the lower damage in comparison to the other enders.

Shadow Kick is a good substitute if the opponent is close to being in the corner and/or they have no defensive meter.

Flippy Kick is mainly good when AMPed, and when you know that it will close out the match. Aside from that, its decent anti-air, but B2 is much better since it will launch and lead into a juggle combo.

Although its not currently in a Ranked variation, Rising Star works well as a combo extender in the corner. When AMPed, it works similarly to AMPed Flippy Kick.
 

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
Nice stuff. I had a post where I was gonna talk about this in comparison to the other combo specials, but you basically did it better than I planned on it.

Eh, might as well still do it. As a rule of thumb, as you stated here, Johnny's combos should almost always be ended with Nutpunch due to the restand. I know its been that way since at least MK9 (probably before that as well, but I didn't play the PS2 games), but since there's multiple ways of getting up after knockdown (delayed wakeup, wakeup roll, wakeup attack, a crouching poke), this makes sure that the opponent has access to none of them, which helps to make up for the lower damage in comparison to the other enders.

Shadow Kick is a good substitute if the opponent is close to being in the corner and/or they have no defensive meter.

Flippy Kick is mainly good when AMPed, and when you know that it will close out the match. Aside from that, its decent anti-air, but B2 is much better since it will launch and lead into a juggle combo.

Although its not currently in a Ranked variation, Rising Star works well as a combo extender in the corner. When AMPed, it works similarly to AMPed Flippy Kick.
The part about restanding and limiting opponent' defensive options is what I thought of as being one of the strongest tools in this game.

Since there are no armors the opponent is forced to play the neutral rather than mash wakeup.
 
In what situation should I be using f344? I've noticed that the only strings I tend to use are f44, b34, and 12 for punish. I've had success using these strings mixed with his specials and lots of throws. I also don't find myself doing b2 nearly ever. I hear these moves mentioned a lot, so I feel I like I might be missing out on something
 

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
In what situation should I be using f344? I've noticed that the only strings I tend to use are f44, b34, and 12 for punish. I've had success using these strings mixed with his specials and lots of throws. I also don't find myself doing b2 nearly ever. I hear these moves mentioned a lot, so I feel I like I might be missing out on something
D4 on hit jails into F344 (sometimes NRS hurtboxes happen so ... it SOMETIME misses). That's the primary use I'd say.

What I started doing is staggering F3 into a throw after I've done a lot of F344s because the opponent expects me to go for 44s. Works like magic.
 

Macoomba

Noob
How is Johnny right now? After some of your testing, what do you think are his pro's and his con's?
And, personal question, what is his playstyle?
 

Macoomba

Noob
Lack of quick mid hurts... female/some male hurtboxes make forceballs whiff... and his KBs are SHIT, literal SHIT.
I'm hoping for 2 of those things to get fixed and cage will be real good.
ty! ill focus on sonya and jacqui for now,lets see how johnny will turn out :D
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
How is Johnny right now? After some of your testing, what do you think are his pro's and his con's?
And, personal question, what is his playstyle?
I’d say his overall playstyle is rushdown. But rather than traditional overhead/low mixups, he relies on conditioning. In that aspect, his indentity has remained pretty consistent across games. He uses + frames, jails, and string staggers that net him advantages other than combos.

He’s very similar to Cassie imo. Both have a projectile that’s used more for anti-zoning, or spacing in mid range rather than fullscreen. Both characters want to maintain a distance about equal to match start length. They’re very much about maintaining a constant pressure, but not the MkX “on top of the opponent” style that might come to mind. If you that style a lot, try cold shoulder Sub Zero. If you liked MkX Johnny, you will like Mk11 Johnny.

From what I’ve seen of Baraka- I’d say there’s similarities there too with how honest both characters are. Almost no dirt, almost all raw fundamentals.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Lack of quick mid hurts... female/some male hurtboxes make forceballs whiff... and his KBs are SHIT, literal SHIT.
I'm hoping for 2 of those things to get fixed and cage will be real good.
Pretty much my only really issues as well. Aside from that, Cage is pretty well-balanced.
 
Aw, hell yeah my dude. I need to upload too sometime, at least for transparencies sake.

Right off the bad, noticing a couple things. In my opinion, if anyone wants to play Johnny, they gotta be comfortable with movement. You should get into the habit of cancelling single dashes into blocks, it's so much better than walking, especially if you're scared of his teleport. If you can, at least learn the first part of wavedashing, linking 2 dashes with fwd fwd, block, fwd (block if needed). That's what I stick with most of the time, and it's enough. Crucial vs zoners and lets you sneak in d4's and f4's from deceptively far.

For your bnb, after the nutpunch amp, work in a dash in s2 before your f4 to optimize your dmg. Easier than b2, only loses 5dmg. And off jump in kick you can dash in and land f44 reliably. Better than raw shadowkick. And Noob teleport is negative a billion. You can get a bigger punish than d2 off it.

The biggest thing I'm seeing is an overall issue where it seems like at a lot of moments in the match, you're unsure of what you want to do especially in the first 3 games. There's a lot of spots where you chill midrange, you aren't throwing fireballs, and you aren't trying to close the space. You never need to fear Noob teleport if your movement is solid. It's suicide for Noob to use it more than once or twice a set. It seemed like you were scared to jump too. I know jump in 2 is risky, but as Johnny you have to sneak them in for the jail where you can. There's only 1 or 2 spots where you used f4 > amp forceball (use this more in general if they're blocking f4), and that can act as one way to set up a ji2 using the + frames from the forceballs.

You need to approach the game in general with a plan in mind. I was thinking of making a full flowchart for JC the other day based on what goes through my head when I play him, so I might get on that. Basically you should have an entire game plan that only changes once your opponent has given you reason to change it. I'm ending every combo with nutpunch > throw until they show me they know the answer to that. I'm f4ing into caged rage every time till they interupt it. I'm contesting every wakeup until they show me they can up3 (you did this well!). I'm doing jump in 2 constantly until they show me they can anti-air. I'll throw out nothing but f3 until they start to duck it (use this more! It's so much better than f44 if they don't). Like plan A could be "get him in range for f344". And before it's even landed, you should be thinking forward, "if it lands, imma nutpunch confirm and go for X combo ender. If he blocks it, I think he'll approach, so I'll look to d4 and jail him into another f3." Or "he turtled after blocking the last one, so I'll jump in." Or "he's a button masher so I'll just cancel into amped forceballs and keep the pressure either way."

Not to be insulting, but you're not guna need the full arsenal vs that Noob. One, maybe 2 solid options and he would have crumbled, and it seemed like you did have him figured out by game 4 and 5 until he switched. But once you fight some crazy good people, that's where us Johnny mains get to play all these little mind games, whereas the Sub Zero player just flips a coin over and over and merely hopes for the right call. Guess which is more fun?

Ah, sorry it's a wall of text, but since you went through the effort of putting the vid up, I wanted to give ya something substantial. You play pretty well, some solid footsies in close range, good understanding of how to pressure him for the most part. Keep wreckin fools, and I hope this helps. :)
Gordon Ramsey voice: This is some good f*cking content right here.


Off to the lab I go!
 
Finally tried Johnny out today, his KBs are buuuulllllshit. Honestly he has two crushing blows (D2 and F4,3) that can be used reliably, the rest of of them are dam near impossible to do in a match. Why couldn’t they tie his KBs to his shadow kick or other strings. It’s like they thought “let’s take the shittiest moves he has and then make the KBs on them infuriating to the player, they’ll love that.”

Same thing for his brutalities, it’s like they wanted Johnny to be the hardest character to do anything fun with.