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MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
This thread has inspired me, so here. I bring you all a gift. I know, I know, hold your praise. It's an incredible piece of art, obviously.

It was forseen the Cage mains would one day grow too powerful... And too numerous.

If left unchecked, their intensifying combat would weaken and shatter the character and bring about... The Cage-pocalypse.

The Elder Mods demanded a safeguard put in place to avoid total destruction. One that would make use of NetherRealm Studios' insatiable nerf-lust. Like moths to flame, they would be drawn to top-tiers.


Cage-mageddon has begun.

14334
 
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Somea2V

Thread Referee
Maybe people just want to discuss Cage and not complain/demand buffs? Especially since the game isn't even a week old.

You're basically shutting down the discussion because you think you have the whole character figured out and how he works within a 50 character meta in 4 days.
I get what you're saying, but Cage mains who were here in MKX have the long memory of everyone overselling his kit and shooting down any discussion of Cage that provided conclusions other than Top 5 as the words of hacks and downplayers.

When people come in here and shoot down criticisms of Cage, it rings of people who have never played him. Nobody is saying he's the worst character. Nobody is saying he's useless. But he has glaring problems, as does most of the cast, and we don't want to hear legitimate discussion of these problems countered with "wow, Cage mains downplaying, amirite?"
 

JohnnyGotCaged

oops i shidded
People who haven't played Cage probably just got that sex they didn't want by Ninja Mime and came to complain because they don't know him. Personally, I don't think he's bad, in MK11. He just lacks more than a lot. He isn't bad to where you want to throw your $500 sunglasses against a wall.

One issue is most of his strings you are going to see a lot is very punishable. Mostly all of his specials, as well. One thing that bothers is his straight forceballs. They are both highs, while the enhanced one should be a mid, and perhaps plus. It was that in MKX, but. This isn't MKX, ahah.

Johnny gonna get that B U F F.
 

Somea2V

Thread Referee
People who haven't played Cage probably just got that sex they didn't want by Ninja Mime and came to complain because they don't know him. Personally, I don't think he's bad, in MK11. He just lacks more than a lot. He isn't bad to where you want to throw your $500 sunglasses against a wall.

One issue is most of his strings you are going to see a lot is very punishable. Mostly all of his specials, as well. One thing that bothers is his straight forceballs. They are both highs, while the enhanced one should be a mid, and perhaps plus. It was that in MKX, but. This isn't MKX, ahah.
I agree. I don't think he's as well off as MKX Johnny was but he has great normals for a game where neutral is more important. I've basically just been playing him like this was SFV.

He has plenty of great strings that aren't punishable. His biggest issue is just that he doesn't really have anything to offset the sheer amount of highs he has and there seem to be a lot of hitbox issues. Giving him a couple of mids and fixing hitboxes is really all he needs. Most of the cast seem to have issues though, so I think some minor fixes for everyone would go a long way to making everyone feel useful.

And a correction for you, Amped Straight Forceball is +3 at point blank. It being a high is a little kooky but you get positive frames off it. Can't be missing that fact when you talk about him.
 

JohnnyGotCaged

oops i shidded
And a correction for you, Amped Straight Forceball is +3 at point blank. It being a high is a little kooky but you get positive frames off it. Can't be missing that fact when you talk about him.
I got oof'd

Thanks for that correction then, perhaps I just suck and do it at the worst time possible. Or framedata is not in my head correctly. Pls give Johnny mids. :c
 

Owerbart

I miss you
As long as ermac isn't in this game I guess im cage all the way :)

I just started playing today, i played a hella of mk9, pretty much nothing of mkx. Is nutpunch into crossed jump-in still a thing?
 
As long as ermac isn't in this game I guess im cage all the way :)

I just started playing today, i played a hella of mk9, pretty much nothing of mkx. Is nutpunch into crossed jump-in still a thing?
not a chance. There's a 1 frame window to jail a standing 1 off Nutpunch, jumping will get you jab anti-aired to damage
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
What's the best follow-up after a nut punch then?please ELI5 hahaha
D3 or throw

Also, I don’t even think we need f3 to be a mid anymore. That could be too free- just throwing it constantly.

We just need something to stop people from crouching. I’d be happy if they shaved frames off f4. Make it 12 or even 11 frames. It already loses to all these disjointed weapon hitboxes like Shao hammer and Scorpion sword. Cassie has a 10 and an 11 frame mid, no reason we couldn’t get one.

Faster f4, fixed hitboxes, and a krushing blow? Not an unreasonable wishlist, is it?
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
D3 or throw

Also, I don’t even think we need f3 to be a mid anymore. That could be too free- just throwing it constantly.

We just need something to stop people from crouching. I’d be happy if they shaved frames off f4. Make it 12 or even 11 frames. It already loses to all these disjointed weapon hitboxes like Shao hammer and Scorpion sword. Cassie has a 10 and an 11 frame mid, no reason we couldn’t get one.

Faster f4, fixed hitboxes, and a krushing blow? Not an unreasonable wishlist, is it?
Nah, that seems reasonable to me
 
I agree. I don't think he's as well off as MKX Johnny was but he has great normals for a game where neutral is more important. I've basically just been playing him like this was SFV.

He has plenty of great strings that aren't punishable. His biggest issue is just that he doesn't really have anything to offset the sheer amount of highs he has and there seem to be a lot of hitbox issues. Giving him a couple of mids and fixing hitboxes is really all he needs. Most of the cast seem to have issues though, so I think some minor fixes for everyone would go a long way to making everyone feel useful.

And a correction for you, Amped Straight Forceball is +3 at point blank. It being a high is a little kooky but you get positive frames off it. Can't be missing that fact when you talk about him.
Yeah +5 off f4 and +6 off f344
 
D3 or throw

Also, I don’t even think we need f3 to be a mid anymore. That could be too free- just throwing it constantly.

We just need something to stop people from crouching. I’d be happy if they shaved frames off f4. Make it 12 or even 11 frames. It already loses to all these disjointed weapon hitboxes like Shao hammer and Scorpion sword. Cassie has a 10 and an 11 frame mid, no reason we couldn’t get one.

Faster f4, fixed hitboxes, and a krushing blow? Not an unreasonable wishlist, is it?
Maybe have f4 go into the multi hit combos too? Like making it f444?
 

Bigrig

Noob
My issue is so far is the discussion has been:

Page of facts vs I feel like he’s good.

I argued against any Johnny buffs in MkX. Here maybe we should take a page from Kitana/Kenshi mains- argue for buffs so unreasonable NRs meets us halfway. Maybe if we put out demands so out there, they’ll go, eh, we’ll fix the forceballs. We’ll make f4 12 frame. We’ll give you a krushing blow, just 1.

Also again- what are we comparing his footsies to? Shao Kahn f2? Skarlet b4, f2, s3? Cassie b2? I need to see this good footsies argument substantiated. It’s like people don’t believe I’ve touched Johnny, I have. Wondering if the JC mains are trying anyone else. Like, he isn’t the worst, that title goes to Jade easily, but he’s bottom half, arguably bottom 25%.
Yo my dude can ya help me out as to what makes jade low tier? Genuinely curious cause on paper her shit sounds broke bro
- meterless pop ups
  • A run in a game that was based around slow play so she has great pressure
  • Great zoning options
  • Cant be zoned back
  • her normals and D2 have Ginormous hitboxes and are often safe at max/mid range which is where jade will always be.
These are just things I've seen so far but if you've got any info on how she suffers or how to handle her, help a brother out?
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
Finally got some time to get into the lab. Since it's not posted yet, figured I'd pull my weight and post some of the fundamentals.

1:
Standard poke jab, 7 frames, hits high

D1:
Crouching 7-frame jab, hits mid, jails into standing 2

2:
Very slightly slower than 1 (8 frames) but better hit advantage and also hits high

B2:
Johnny’s meterless launcher. 14-frame startup, hits mid, but unsafe on block

F2:
A quick spinning backfist that hits high, 11-frame startup

D2:
9-frame uppercut. As with all characters, this Krushing Blows as a counter to a high attack, but is unsafe on block

3:
An 11-frame high that has frame advantage on block

B3:
Johnny’s low starter. An 18-frame low, so this does run the risk of being counter-poked

F3:
14-frame advancing high that somehow is negative on hit

D3:
A 9-frame low that is good to use after hitting a Nutpunch if case the oponent is expecting a high attack as a follow-up

4:
A 12-frame roundhouse kick that hits high. Aside from an anti-air, I haven't been able to find any other use for this yet. Might be a good use for it in the corner, but further labbing is needed.

B4:
13-frame Sweep

F4:
Johnny's 14-frame advancing knee that hits mid

D4:
An 8-frame low with nice range and pushback, can jail into F3

1,2:
11-frame startup, starts high, ends with a mid; used as a punish tool

1,2,1:
14-frame startup, the same as 1,2, except with a second mid that also hits the opponent slightly into the air. Safe on block. Works well as a combo ender.

1,2,4:
17-frame startup, high-mid-high that jails and ends in a knockdown with pushback. Frame advantage on block.

2,4,4:
Johnny's go-to string for starting combos since it can hit confirm into Amplified Nutpunch. An 11-frame startup that starts high and ends with 3 mid kicks

2,4,4,U4:
The end of the string ends in a knockdown with great pushback. Good for getting the opponent into the corner

F2,1:
Advancing string that starts high and ends mid

F2,1,2:
Same as F2,1 but with an shoulder charge that hits mid. Safe on block

3,4:
18-frame startup that begins high. Despite how the string looks to also end high, it is actually a mid ender.

3,4,D3:
14-frame startup string that ends in a low that knocks down

3,4,U3:
17-frame startup string that ends high and pushes the opponent back. 6-frame advantage on block.

F3,4,4:
Pretty much the same as 2,4,4 where it ends with the 3 mid-kicks, except with a 14-frame startup

F,3,4,4,U4:
String that ends in a jumping mid with great pushback

B3,4:
Johnny's low string that has great range and an 18-frame startup. Use this to mix-up opponents, an area that Johnny unfortunately doesn't have a lot of

B3,4,U3+4:
Starts low and ends with a double-hitting mid that pops up

F4,3:
Advancing knee string that starts mid and ends with a high that can Krushing Blow if the high is the only hit that connects

F4,4:
Advancing knee string that hits mid twice. Safe on block and can catch opponents that are expecting the high ender.

All of the moves/strings were tested against Sub-Zero set on reversal with Slide set as the counter move.
 
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Somea2V

Thread Referee
4:
A 12-frame roundhouse kick that hits high. Aside from an anti-air, I haven't been able to find any other use for this yet. Recovery isn't good enough to be used in the corner.
I haven't pulled it off yet but I have a theory 4 may have use in the corner for combo damage.

121 xx Amp Straight Forceball in the corner allows you to follow up with 1 or D1 to continue a juggle. 4 also knocks the opponent up higher than the second 1 in 121, but because of this the second Forceball misses. Given it's a single hit and will have less scaling, I think it may lead to better damage in juggle situations but not as a launch. Anyone who can make this work, please let me know.
 

lionheart21

Its Game Over, Man
I haven't pulled it off yet but I have a theory 4 may have use in the corner for combo damage.

121 xx Amp Straight Forceball in the corner allows you to follow up with 1 or D1 to continue a juggle. 4 also knocks the opponent up higher than the second 1 in 121, but because of this the second Forceball misses. Given it's a single hit and will have less scaling, I think it may lead to better damage in juggle situations but not as a launch. Anyone who can make this work, please let me know.
Upon trying it again, I actually did find that you can use it like this in the corner:

Jump-in 2, B2, 4, BD3 MB, 2 2 2 1 2 1 BD3

I'm sure that there's an easier set-up than that, but I'm just messing around on my own right now.
 
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Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Upon trying it again, I actually did find that you can use it like this in the corner:

Jump-in 2, B2, 4, BD3 MB, 2 2 2 1 2 1 BD3
If you replace 4 with F3, it does more damage.
@Wigy says this might be because 4 is a launcher and scales harder even though it does more damage on it's own than F3.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
Yo my dude can ya help me out as to what makes jade low tier? Genuinely curious cause on paper her shit sounds broke bro
- meterless pop ups
  • A run in a game that was based around slow play so she has great pressure
  • Great zoning options
  • Cant be zoned back
  • her normals and D2 have Ginormous hitboxes and are often safe at max/mid range which is where jade will always be.
These are just things I've seen so far but if you've got any info on how she suffers or how to handle her, help a brother out?
If you want a really fleshed out list of reasons- check out that thread from the main page- the poll on "Whose the worst character". On page 1 a jade main named GloRtor lays it out, and page 2 I do at length, but I'll sum it up.

Her run is worthless. The move out of it is reactable, the run is risky, the cancel is negative. It basically isn't a real run. By meterless pop up, do you mean her overhead? Because that thing is awful. It's 28 frames so it's reactable. It's -17 and has no pushback, so full combo punishable. She needs meter to get meaningful damage off it, and her BnB does a lot less than most characters.

That move is her only true combo, the rest of her conversions are downright awful, we're talking sub 200 dmg and a lot of that is because her specials are all terrible.

Her only zoning options are a projectile with a 20+ frame startup and it's high, so no one is getting hit by it. The air projectile is ok, but nothing amazing- she cant cancel the recovery like Kabal can. She can be zoned back, and gets zoned hard. Glow is good, but it isn't enough. A lot of moves like Skarlet tongue still hit her in glow, and if someone really wants to zone her, glow doesn't stop them. They duck and wait for it to end, and hit her on activation.

All of her normals with big hitboxes- f2, b2, and b1 are all punishable on block. The rest of her normals are incredibly stubby- less range than any character I can think of. They are almost never safe.

That's about it. Most of the mains straight dropped her after beta and are waiting for buffs before they touch her again, and I don't blame them.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
I haven't pulled it off yet but I have a theory 4 may have use in the corner for combo damage.

121 xx Amp Straight Forceball in the corner allows you to follow up with 1 or D1 to continue a juggle. 4 also knocks the opponent up higher than the second 1 in 121, but because of this the second Forceball misses. Given it's a single hit and will have less scaling, I think it may lead to better damage in juggle situations but not as a launch. Anyone who can make this work, please let me know.
Sorry to double post, but yeah just don't play him into Cassie, Jacqui, JC, or anyone else small till the hitboxes are fixed. Losing the forceballs on block is so massive, that you just auto lose vs a lot of the cast. I'm to the point where I just wait to see if they pick someone with a normal hitbox before I bother using Johnny.
 

PurpleMenace

Douchebag
Oh my goodness Johnny whiffs his moves on so many characters. I've had his f43 whiff on another blocking johnny in a mirror match - the only consistent non-missing being on Jax, because his head is shaped like a bowling ball. The 121 whiffed on block against Eroon and Kung Lao at times, so that too.

Out of all the horrible things, how fake the 5 frames of advantage on Johnny's nutpunch feels hurts the most. Even on 53 ms the animation takes so long that I'll end up trading d1's with people more than getting any actual advantage. Still leagues better than his camera though, considering it basically removes low combo starting in anything but the corner (his b34 doesn't combo with it).