MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[Owerbart]

Talking about mixups, i'm not talking only that he doesn't have any overheads and lows. I'm talking about he doesn't even have a reliable mid. Up close, you can either d4 and hope for the best, or commit to a high, f4 being 14 is harmless to any competitive player. And you know what? From a f4, even if they block your f344, you have nothing to go back on neutral f44 is -5, and f344 is too telegraphed, without even talking about how weak the chip damage is in this game. Johnny is unfortunately doomed to play a spacing game in a world full of safer and faster mids. I wouldn't be surprised if he keeps moving lower in the tier lists, snce not having a reliable mid is the best recipe for a trip to the "joke" tier.

I'm gonna extend the olive branch, and given that so many people in this forum still don't think we need f3 to be a mid, i'm proposing the following changes:

F2 is now a mid
Nutpunch is +8. You can ex on block, similar to scorp tele.
B3 gets 3 frames shaved down.
Fisticuffs now have a lower startup.
F43 is either now an overhead or removed from the game

 

[CageistheGOAT]

F344 is -2. I do want f2 to be a mid but i want kbs and forceballs fixed before i ask for something else.

 

[heildan]

Amped Nutpunch on block would be too brutal.
I mean... I kinda like it, but considering they can fix the hitboxes I would prefer if his NP stayed the way it is and then they changed Scorpion's teleport not to be able to EX on block. He has too many ways to cancel that move and we got amped forceballs on block anyway. However, that would be a good alternative if they can't fix it.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Talking about mixups, i'm not talking only that he doesn't have any overheads and lows. I'm talking about he doesn't even have a reliable mid. Up close, you can either d4 and hope for the best, or commit to a high, f4 being 14 is harmless to any competitive player. And you know what? From a f4, even if they block your f344, you have nothing to go back on neutral f44 is -5, and f344 is too telegraphed, without even talking about how weak the chip damage is in this game. Johnny is unfortunately doomed to play a spacing game in a world full of safer and faster mids. I wouldn't be surprised if he keeps moving lower in the tier lists, snce not having a reliable mid is the best recipe for a trip to the "joke" tier.

I'm gonna extend the olive branch, and given that so many people in this forum still don't think we need f3 to be a mid, i'm proposing the following changes:

F2 is now a mid
Nutpunch is +8. You can ex on block, similar to scorp tele.
B3 gets 3 frames shaved down.
Fisticuffs now have a lower startup.
F43 is either now an overhead or removed from the game

You would really just need b3 to be shaved down, maybe make it staggerable similar to red hood in injustice.

Without it being hella slow and telegraphed it becomes much more of a threat and people are more likely to crouch block in f3 range so you don’t really need to make it a mid, and it makes it not as brain dead cause the opponent could still guess right and neutral duck and d2 kB you but at the risk of being hit with b34 for full combo.

I would also make his nut punch be more +on hit, having no fast mids and no mixups I don’t see why this would be a problem, he could actually use his highs for once.

I mean sub zeros b14 is +10 on, advancing and can go into 50/50.

I really think giving nut punch more hit advantage, making b3 faster and possibly less negative(maybe f4 also), fixing the whiff issues so his highs can hit after jailing, making brass knuckles last longer or reduce start up time or both.

He would be pretty solid after that.

 

[M.D.]

Kompetitor's guide works only when hitboxes don't whiff, which s against 6 out of 26 chars.

STOP SELLING FALSE INFORMATION.
STOP SHOWING VIDS ONLY AGAINST THOSE 6 CHARS

 

[kelevra]

F2 is now a mid
Nutpunch is +8. You can ex on block, similar to scorp tele.
B3 gets 3 frames shaved down.
Fisticuffs now have a lower startup.
F43 is either now an overhead or removed from the game

F2 mid - reasonable
+8 nut - reasonable
Nut ex on block - hell to the no, get rid of that ex launch on block shit all together
Fisticuffs - reasonable
F34 - no overhead, just delete the string

 

[SwiftEagle]

I thought he was good to. At first, but then once u go against someone on your skill level then his flaws start to show. Like how he can't pressure Jacqui while she has infinite pressure with her cancels. Or u go against liu kang and he does like 3 kbs. Johnny is not playing mk 11 atm

Liu Lang is just as fast as Johnny, but better in a every other way. At least you have ranged options for Cetrion, and F43 is quicker than Johnny's B34. Also, good crushing blows and a faster counter. You have to be in the shaolin stance to pull off his overhead, but at least he has one. I just stopped using Kano entirely (shit character) and use Liu Kang as a secondary like I did with MK9. The only thing that's ridiculous with him are those stupid teleports he has, but other than that I'd say he's balanced. I haven't used him enough to say for sure though. Still, so much more relaxing to play knowing you have options. Another great thing is that your skill with Johnny will carry over to Liu Kang since they play almost similar. You'll be winning more than most newer players. This is a personal annoyance with me, but the fatalities and brutalities are better with Liu Kang. I never do fatalities in ranked, but against AI, or sometimes in KOTH, they're just better and more satisfying to watch. Cage's fatalities were always weak, but this time they're just stupid and way too long. I have no desire to do them.

 

[CageistheGOAT]

Naw I'm good. Johnny my favorite character and i don't feel right with a secondary. So im just a solo Johnny main although i can play like half the cast, they are just not fun enough for me. Liu is balanced, i was saying I'll lose to a liu because all his kbs are practical.

 

[SwiftEagle]

Naw I'm good. Johnny my favorite character and i don't feel right with a secondary. So im just a solo Johnny main although i can play like half the cast, they are just not fun enough for me. Liu is balanced, i was saying I'll lose to a liu because all his kbs are practical.

I know what you meant. I was just saying sometimes it's good to have one backup so you're not always stuck playing mirror matches. Or if you're getting your ass kicked you have someone else. But yea, I'm a believer that it's better to master 1 or 2 characters than trying to learn the whole cast. Cage is fun despite his problems, it just wears me out, both my thumbs and my brain. If I can't use Van Dam i'll use Bruce Lee.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

I'm in awe how someone can say Johnny isnt more work to play, I honestly dont know what to write im dumbfounded

Ok now that my jaw is off the floor let's look at why johnnys more work
Play geras he hits you with a easy bnb 32 % ok then he hits you with a full screen low boom 30% you get in he hits you with a string non special cancelable boom 30% then he gets you in a block string with mix ups boom he breaks your back 30%. In the meantime johnnys doing blockstrings hoping someone unblocks or the energy balls don't whiff maybe hit them with a b34 into combo oh and grabs I forgot that can be teched just cause your opponent is mashing.

Winning with Johnny doesnt mean he doesnt have issues.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I'm in awe how someone can say Johnny isnt more work to play, I honestly dont know what to write im dumbfounded

Ok now that my jaw is off the floor let's look at why johnnys more work
Play geras he hits you with a easy bnb 32 % ok then he hits you with a full screen low boom 30% you get in he hits you with a string non special cancelable boom 30% then he gets you in a block string with mix ups boom he breaks your back 30%. In the meantime johnnys doing blockstrings hoping someone unblocks or the energy balls don't whiff maybe hit them with a b34 into combo oh and grabs I forgot that can be teched just cause your opponent is mashing.

Winning with Johnny doesnt mean he doesnt have issues.

Let's not forget his grabs all knock you full screen away.. "but Johnny has good zoning!" yeah not against the top tiers.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

Has anyone been using Johnny to experiment with that Universal Wake-Up OS that Shaolin posted a few weeks back? His 34 starter seems like a pretty good option for it. In the corner, if you do a micro dash after ending in Flippy Kick, with proper timing, 34 can tech back throw, catch both roll directions, and still allows you to block getup attacks.

I'm still trying to find a way to make the timing more consistent, though the speed of some getup attacks seem to throw me off.

 

[Rip Torn]

Kompetitor's guide works only when hitboxes don't whiff, which s against 6 out of 26 chars.

STOP SELLING FALSE INFORMATION.
STOP SHOWING VIDS ONLY AGAINST THOSE 6 CHARS

Ok, it's time to set the record straight. You say hitboxes whiff on 20 characters. I count 13. 13 characters that can duck Cage's EX fireballs and 13 that can't. So where are you getting your info?

 

[Deleted member 35141]

Ok, it's time to set the record straight. You say hitboxes whiff on 20 characters. I count 13. 13 characters that can duck Cage's EX fireballs and 13 that can't. So where are you getting your info?

He has a bunch of moves that whiff not just fireballs and just fireballs its 16 depending on how the character breathes like Baraka and kabal

 

[Rip Torn]

He has a bunch of moves that whiff not just fireballs and just fireballs its 16 depending on how the character breathes like Baraka and kabal

They hit pretty consistently on Baraka. If there is some fringe case where a string might whiff here or there, that doesn't make it a "bad hitbox" matchup. The main thing is if you can jail ex fireballs off b34, f4, f344. Also, 124 is important. Saying he has whiffing issues on 20 characters is misleading.

 

[M.D.]

There was a video here showing whiffs against all cast. Not going to search for it again.

That video should be stickied for everyone to see before they start spilling out crap that Cage is fine and bring the same old arguments "yea but it doesnt whiff on X or Y"
Wake up already. The character is busted period. There are no excuses.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Is it just me or are his combos also inconsistent? I honestly feel like the b2 f4 combo is harder against females... I know the NP restand isn't exactly viable because hurr durr anything that leaves you standing has to give you a chance to mash out the game's cancerous pokes.. but d4 NP is such a viable strat online.

 

[SwiftEagle]

They hit pretty consistently on Baraka. If there is some fringe case where a string might whiff here or there, that doesn't make it a "bad hitbox" matchup. The main thing is if you can jail ex fireballs off b34, f4, f344. Also, 124 is important. Saying he has whiffing issues on 20 characters is misleading.

Cage's force balls whiff on the majority of the cast which includes all females. They're a key part of his pressure, but you can't use them consistently. This is a problem on NRS' end, something that shouldn't be there. There's nothing misleading about what others are saying here. Fanboying is always misleading. Cage isn't the only character with problems either.

 

[Rip Torn]

Cage's force balls whiff on the majority of the cast which includes all females. They're a key part of his pressure, but you can't use them consistently. This is a problem on NRS' end, something that shouldn't be there. There's nothing misleading about what others are saying here. Fanboying is always misleading. Cage isn't the only character with problems either.

I went in the lab and tested the forceballs myself and they worked on half the cast. I gave the exact number. How is that being misleading? Saying he has whiffing issues on all but 6 characters is super misleading.

 

[DrFolmer]

Yea twitch chat saying Johnny is amazing but it takes a high skillcap LOL

Kombat is a beast though. I think these plebs don't even realize how good this guy is. Kombat conditioned Grr so good it looked like f344 was a mid that was + on block. People always need to look at pro player mistakes. Grr got caught a lot by b34, and it wasn't even whiff punishing. Sometimes it was just on wake up without counter hit appearing. Wish I had that kind of conditioning game going for me

 

[thlityoursloat]

I went in the lab and tested the forceballs myself and they worked on half the cast. I gave the exact number. How is that being misleading? Saying he has whiffing issues on all but 6 characters is super misleading.

Against many characters the forceballs are hit or miss.

 

[Rip Torn]

Against many characters the forceballs are hit or miss.

Yeah, I know. That's why I tested it. They worked very consistently on 13 characters.

 

[heildan]

Damn you guys have been active today. Finished the crouch block video. Kitana and the man himself seem to be the worst followed by his daughter Cassius Clay. Didn't include Shadow Kick cause it doesn't whiff. f3 doesn't either but I wasn't sure when testing and since uppercut whiffs at point blank against Kitana and JC I wanted to be sure.

Here's the video.
Someone said it before, its not just the forceballs, a lot of his moves whiffs on the cast.

s2? Whiffs (counting, since the timing to input the move is different between a 244 on block vs a 244 whiffing)
124? Whiffs sometimes
F21? Whiffs
12? Whiffs
34? Whiffs
34u3? Whiffs
Caged Rage? Whiffs sometimes
Forceballs? Whiffs

And the list goes on.

 

[heildan]

Yeah, I know. That's why I tested it. They worked very consistently on 13 characters.

Implying the other 13 characters isn't a lot, btw

 

[heildan]

Yea twitch chat saying Johnny is amazing but it takes a high skillcap LOL

Kombat is a beast though. I think these plebs don't even realize how good this guy is. Kombat conditioned Grr so good it looked like f344 was a mid that was + on block. People always need to look at pro player mistakes. Grr got caught a lot by b34, and it wasn't even whiff punishing. Sometimes it was just on wake up without counter hit appearing. Wish I had that kind of conditioning game going for me

Also it looked like a mid because it doesn't whiff against Geras or big hitbox characters. That matchup is in favor of Johnny.