MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[DrFolmer]

Gotta admit, when people start blocking d4's and really understand the poke game, thats where I struggle to open people up. Fullscreen throws dont really do much when people dont even have to neutral duck projectiles, thus eliminating the f4 vs neutral ducks mind game

 

[heildan]

It's funny how his moves whiff even against himself in mirror matches. Seriously, why do people say the problems are worse in MKX? Fighting against Goro in particular and females, yea, they're still broken. But everyone feared the overhead so much that players would usually block 1,1 to be safe. Despite the issues, you could usually force whatever character you're fighting to play your game if your cancels were on point. That's the problem in MK11, nobody respects you. You can't always rely on D4. What's to be afraid of anyway? Just block low.

Exactly. I feel ya :/

 

[DrFolmer]

What is the consensus on the Erron matchup. I win like 1/10 sets. Mind you it's good Errons, but even half-decent ones become good because of his fucking lame toolset.

 

[NewMK11Player]

Yeah Im done with Johnny, I cant take his hitbox issues anymore. Surprising that I held out this long, fucking garbage

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Gotta admit, when people start blocking d4's and really understand the poke game, thats where I struggle to open people up. Fullscreen throws dont really do much when people dont even have to neutral duck projectiles, thus eliminating the f4 vs neutral ducks mind game

What mind game? F4 is slow af even characters that don’t have the whiff advantage can react to f4

 

[Rodney Quillz]

What is the consensus on the Erron matchup. I win like 1/10 sets. Mind you it's good Errons, but even half-decent ones become good because of his fucking lame toolset.

The consensus is that you are going to work hard in this match up even if your opponent is a moron.

 

[M.D.]

Erron matchup? Here ya go:

 

[DrFolmer]

What mind game? F4 is slow af even characters that don’t have the whiff advantage can react to f4

I play a bit risky in f4 range by throwing out forceballs here. Some people dont wanna take chip so they neutral duck.. aand that's where I grab my free f4 nutpunch starter. But this goes out the window when people can just duck and block and still have forceballs whiff

 

[DrFolmer]

Erron matchup? Here ya go:

Yeah the whiffing sucks, but it's just in general. He's so safe, his safety has distancing as well. Puddle is just hella strong. Erron gets so much damage from simple decisions - do I go for a 300 dmg throw, do I go for my fast super easy hitconfirmable strings that are amazing staggers, and should I stagger? Should I throw in an ex slide to put them in the blender?

Then we got his amazing zoning, counter zoning too. The thing that annoys me the most other than his low profiling is probably the all-purposeness of his strings. Like they catch jumpers into full combos. It's fucking Bardock from FighterZ

 

[SwiftEagle]

Yeah Im done with Johnny, I cant take his hitbox issues anymore. Surprising that I held out this long, fucking garbage

I think the reason I still use him is because I'm a masochist and I love torturing myself by winning with such a trash character. The people that say he's good are just stupid. Then they'll post the one sonic Fox video as if it means anything. Everybody on this game can count on one hand how many Cages they played against. Once the matchup is known that's it. I was 15 and 0 with Kano until the d2 spammers realized they could uppercut though the command grab. Winning with a character doesn't make him or her any less shit.
The buffs need to happen. Period end of story

 

[NewMK11Player]

I think the reason I still use him is because I'm a masochist and I love torturing myself by winning with such a trash character. The people that say he's good are just stupid. Then they'll post the one sonic Fox video as if it means anything. Everybody on this game can count on one hand how many Cages they played against. Once the matchup is known that's it. I was 15 and 0 with Kano until the d2 spammers realized they could uppercut though the command grab. Winning with a character doesn't make him or her any less shit.
The buffs need to happen. Period end of story

Hitboxes + D2 negate 80% of my offensive tools. Im done with it

 

[Error404]

I stopped trying to play him as his MK9/X counter part. It's not working. IMO he does work pretty well as a 1/2 to 2/3 screen character.

Forceball is very good at controling forward movement and synergizes greatly with b34 . Combine that with solid anti-airs into restand and you have a solid neutral game.

I've also stopped using highs, outside of punishes and after d4. And I don't use forceballs in block strings , even in MUs where they don't whiff. Not enough frame advantage for a legit frame trap , you might as well just go for a stagger or bait by walking back.

I only turn up the offense to 11 in the corner with jump kicks and 343 since if they block the first high they get jailed into +6.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

I stopped trying to play him as his MK9/X counter part. It's not working. IMO he does work pretty well as a 1/2 to 2/3 screen character.

Forceball is very good at controling forward movement and synergizes greatly with b34 . Combine that with solid anti-airs into restand and you have a solid neutral game.

I've also stopped using highs, outside of punishes and after d4. And I don't use forceballs in block strings , even in MUs where they don't whiff. Not enough frame advantage for a legit frame trap , you might as well just go for a stagger or bait by walking back.

I only turn up the offense to 11 in the corner with jump kicks and 343 since if they block the first high they get jailed into +6.

I don’t want to rain on your parade man and perhaps you are just better than me at whiff punishing or something, but b3 is 18 frames and people see it coming a mile Away, it might catch pokes that are on the slower side of recovery like Errons d4 but stuff like scorpion, sub zero, jade, and noob, not a chance, they can neutral duck all day, you might get in with an f4 every once in a while but that’s not real tide turning momentum to make them think twice.

“I’ve stopped using highs.”

That’s most of his moveset, at that point you are left with pokes and f4.

The fact that all his plus strings on block unless they are in the corner really just reset neutral speaks for itself.

Make no mistake about it, the character is fun as hell to use but he is bad.

I understand the thought process behind the character but the slow frames and whiffing issues make him trash.

Johnny has a hard time opening up people who know the match up and they block most of his strings - here’s a chip damage buff that will help you out with that/ the problem is that it’s slow as shit and the duration isn’t long at all.

Johnny has no overhead and all of his advancing normals and specials hit high so the opponent can neutral duck all day - here’s a long reaching advancing low to check em for doing so/ the long ranging advancing low is fucking 18 frames and hella telegraphed.

Fix the whiffing issues.

Make b3 faster so when you are in that range people will start to crouch block and you can start pressuring with your highs.

Make chip damage buff start up faster or last longer so high pressure will actually be effective.

 

[Error404]

I don’t want to rain on your parade man and perhaps you are just better than me at whiff punishing or something, but b3 is 18 frames and people see it coming a mile Away, it might catch pokes that are on the slower side of recovery like Errons d4 but stuff like scorpion, sub zero, jade, and noob, not a chance, they can neutral duck all day, you might get in with an f4 every once in a while but that’s not real tide turning momentum to make them think twice.

“I’ve stopped using highs.”

That’s most of his moveset, at that point you are left with pokes and f4.

The fact that all his plus strings on block unless they are in the corner really just reset neutral speaks for itself.

Make no mistake about it, the character is fun as hell to use but he is bad.

I understand the thought process behind the character but the slow frames and whiffing issues make him trash.

Johnny has a hard time opening up people who know the match up and they block most of his strings - here’s a chip damage buff that will help you out with that/ the problem is that it’s slow as shit and the duration isn’t long at all.

Johnny has no overhead and all of his advancing normals and specials hit high so the opponent can neutral duck all day - here’s a long reaching advancing low to check em for doing so/ the long ranging advancing low is fucking 18 frames and hella telegraphed.

Fix the whiffing issues.

Make b3 faster so when you are in that range people will start to crouch block and you can start pressuring with your highs.

Make chip damage buff start up faster or last longer so high pressure will actually be effective.

I stopped using highs in neutral , not totally . And what if they see b3 coming? It's an 18 frame normal . You're not stuffing that on reaction and you're not walking back out of it. Try it, if you don't believe me.

 

[DrFolmer]

My biggest issue in neutral isnt the lack of good mids. It's more how much recovery his moves have. You get blown up for the smallest mistakes. I understand whiffing f344 has to have a long recovery, that's a given. But like, forceballs doesnt guarantee jack shit, it's actually quite risky to throw out moves after they're blocked. Don't get me wrong this is deadly in the corner, I know. But for a footsie character, I tend to feel a little weak against the top tiers. Sometimes when f344 hits people jumping it happens in this unfortunate fashion where f3 hits, maybe one of the 4's hit - the rest whiff only to be full combo punished on wake up. And when people try to jump b34 it happens as well. Very rarely do I hit with the 4 and can hitconfirm into some neat little damage.

A lot of this is also execution related, but I've been playing fightings games for quite some time, and I still have my young man reactions (I think LOL). I don't know if you guys relate to the above but, I just feel like I get blown up for stupid unintentional things. Like, I don't mind people outspacing f3 and punishing me - that's an outplay. I just hate being punished for HITTING my opponents at the wrong angles

 

[Frank Reed]

I stopped trying to play him as his MK9/X counter part. It's not working. IMO he does work pretty well as a 1/2 to 2/3 screen character.

Forceball is very good at controling forward movement and synergizes greatly with b34 . Combine that with solid anti-airs into restand and you have a solid neutral game.

I've also stopped using highs, outside of punishes and after d4. And I don't use forceballs in block strings , even in MUs where they don't whiff. Not enough frame advantage for a legit frame trap , you might as well just go for a stagger or bait by walking back.

I only turn up the offense to 11 in the corner with jump kicks and 343 since if they block the first high they get jailed into +6.

I think you are like the only other person playing Cage like me. He’s really good if you play defensively and keep things in the neutral. While I of course wish his force balls didn’t whiff of certain characters, they are definitely a very strong zoning tool that people underestimate. They can basically trade with almost any projectile. Force people to approach you and don’t rush in. This opens up the b3, 4 and f4 on people trying to get in.

 

[Name v.5.0]

It’s like he’s meant to chip people to death. Except getting out brass knuckles is hard unless you’re far away, and expires before you get a chance to use it. That and the whiff issues. I mean, imagine being able to use brass knuckles without whiffing issues. Johnny would legit be great. I’m not even sure we’d need KBs. I’m sick to death of losing because all I can do is chip damage and throws. Every knowledgeable player I fight beats me now. None of the bullshit tricks work. Throws are often teched and when I do start a combo, they break away. Cool. What am I supposed to do? Ive been defending this character for a long time but I’m slowly just getting sick of this shit, especially after learning Shang. Why does he get mids and Johnny doesn’t. Shangs F2 is 14 frames and has serious range. Why isn’t johnnys F3 or F2 a mid? Seriously, why? I thought F3 would be broke before, but now I'm starting to understand that it wouldn’t matter. Fucking shangs F242 is +4 on block, has better zoning, better damage and overheads. Why should I keep playing cage?

 

[SwiftEagle]

It’s like he’s meant to chip people to death. Except getting out brass knuckles is hard unless you’re far away, and expires before you get a chance to use it. That and the whiff issues. I mean, imagine being able to use brass knuckles without whiffing issues. Johnny would legit be great. I’m not even sure we’d need KBs. I’m sick to death of losing because all I can do is chip damage and throws. Every knowledgeable player I fight beats me now. None of the bullshit tricks work. Throws are often teched and when I do start a combo, they break away. Cool. What am I supposed to do? Ive been defending this character for a long time but I’m slowly just getting sick of this shit, especially after learning Shang. Why does he get mids and Johnny doesn’t. Shangs F2 is 14 frames and has serious range. Why isn’t johnnys F3 or F2 a mid? Seriously, why? I thought F3 would be broke before, but now I'm starting to understand that it wouldn’t matter. Fucking shangs F242 is +4 on block, has better zoning, better damage and overheads. Why should I keep playing cage?

When I use brass knuckles it just makes the other player jump around or play extremely aggressive so it becomes useless. In the beginning stages of MKX, fisticuffs was great so long as you could close the gap. What we have now is basically a fuck you move, sincerely the Scorpion complainers from the last game.
In my opinion, you should keep using Cage for a few matches before you switch to your other character just to keep your muscle memory sharp if he gets fixed.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

It’s like he’s meant to chip people to death. Except getting out brass knuckles is hard unless you’re far away, and expires before you get a chance to use it. That and the whiff issues. I mean, imagine being able to use brass knuckles without whiffing issues. Johnny would legit be great. I’m not even sure we’d need KBs. I’m sick to death of losing because all I can do is chip damage and throws. Every knowledgeable player I fight beats me now. None of the bullshit tricks work. Throws are often teched and when I do start a combo, they break away. Cool. What am I supposed to do? Ive been defending this character for a long time but I’m slowly just getting sick of this shit, especially after learning Shang. Why does he get mids and Johnny doesn’t. Shangs F2 is 14 frames and has serious range. Why isn’t johnnys F3 or F2 a mid? Seriously, why? I thought F3 would be broke before, but now I'm starting to understand that it wouldn’t matter. Fucking shangs F242 is +4 on block, has better zoning, better damage and overheads. Why should I keep playing cage?

That’s it, let it all out brother.

All he needs is a couple of tweaks.

I don’t agree with the kB thing though as in we would only have 2 practical ones anyway. Just make nut punch work in counters like Lius u4, do something with mime time.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

When I use brass knuckles it just makes the other player jump around or play extremely aggressive so it becomes useless. In the beginning stages of MKX, fisticuffs was great so long as you could close the gap. What we have now is basically a fuck you move, sincerely the Scorpion complainers from the last game.
In my opinion, you should keep using Cage for a few matches before you switch to your other character just to keep your muscle memory sharp if he gets fixed.

That’s about the only good thing it does actually, instead of them zoning and neutral ducking, they start to get erratic and make mistakes which is what Cage wants.

 

[liljay273]

So i've just picked up Johnny since i played him in MKX and all im thinking is WTF? These hitbox issues are crazy

 

[Frank Reed]

It’s like he’s meant to chip people to death. Except getting out brass knuckles is hard unless you’re far away, and expires before you get a chance to use it. That and the whiff issues. I mean, imagine being able to use brass knuckles without whiffing issues. Johnny would legit be great. I’m not even sure we’d need KBs. I’m sick to death of losing because all I can do is chip damage and throws. Every knowledgeable player I fight beats me now. None of the bullshit tricks work. Throws are often teched and when I do start a combo, they break away. Cool. What am I supposed to do? Ive been defending this character for a long time but I’m slowly just getting sick of this shit, especially after learning Shang. Why does he get mids and Johnny doesn’t. Shangs F2 is 14 frames and has serious range. Why isn’t johnnys F3 or F2 a mid? Seriously, why? I thought F3 would be broke before, but now I'm starting to understand that it wouldn’t matter. Fucking shangs F242 is +4 on block, has better zoning, better damage and overheads. Why should I keep playing cage?

Johnny doesn’t need f3 or f2 to be a mid because he has f4. Johnny’s throw game is great. You can literally mix people off of a shadow kick by dashing in and making them guess between throw and f4. You get a mix off of d4 every time. His f3 is easily hit confirmable which would be great as a mid but is fine as is. And no way Shang’s zoning is better than Johnny’s. I’m forcing good Shang to come to me all day long.

All Johnny needs is better krushing blows and it would be nice if his whiff issues were fixed but it isn’t as important as people make it out to be.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Johnny doesn’t need f3 or f2 to be a mid because he has f4. Johnny’s throw game is great. You can literally mix people off of a shadow kick by dashing in and making them guess between throw and f4. You get a mix off of d4 every time. His f3 is easily hit confirmable which would be great as a mid but is fine as is. And no way Shang’s zoning is better than Johnny’s. I’m forcing good Shang to come to me all day long.

All Johnny needs is better krushing blows and it would be nice if his whiff issues were fixed but it isn’t as important as people make it out to be.

Wow.

Until you post up some games this is a bill of goods.

 

[SwiftEagle]

Johnny doesn’t need f3 or f2 to be a mid because he has f4. Johnny’s throw game is great. You can literally mix people off of a shadow kick by dashing in and making them guess between throw and f4. You get a mix off of d4 every time. His f3 is easily hit confirmable which would be great as a mid but is fine as is. And no way Shang’s zoning is better than Johnny’s. I’m forcing good Shang to come to me all day long.

All Johnny needs is better krushing blows and it would be nice if his whiff issues were fixed but it isn’t as important as people make it out to be.

How do I, a more than proficient Cage user. defeat an average Jacqui user by relying on F4?

 

[Tundra81]

I was definitely an advocate for "F3 doesn't need to be a mid" but after waves and waves of Jacqui's and Cassie's and the multitude of characters that have solid hit confirmable mids I'm on board for F3 being a mid. Not gonna happen but a guy can wish. I'd love for Brass Knuckles to have a faster start up and an amplify option to continue pressure. Maybe they'll buff that when MK11XL drops.