MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[Rain and Light]

S-tier is definitely a stretch, but the downplay in this thread is unreal. Showstopper is great. Top-tier footsies, great staggers, plus frames galore, unbreakable damage, restands for days...

sounds like y'all think he is bottom 5

Oh look an uplayer, hello uplayer welcome to earth.

 

[M.D.]

See how it works? Man has no clue what he's saying, he doesn't even play Cage, he just copypastes the twitter bullshit and actually believes it.

My what a gullible species we are.

I would like to see for once an upplay with clear arguments.

Great staggers: please insert examples and why are they great compared to baraka, nightwolf, jacqui, jax. With examples with clear frame data and matchup showcase.

Plus frames galore: please give clear examples of how that helps him and what can he do after said plus frames, with clear button examples and screen positioning, to be top tier. Compare to Kang plus frames, Shang Tsung or other plus frames examples and illustrate the exact pressure he gets after plus frames to be top tier.

Restands for days: please illustrate what he gets after restand guaranteed, how plus he is, and compare to kang restand, sonya restand, skarlet restand, and why is cage top tier compared to them.


Or the easy way out: roftlmao cage comuniti topplayers know better you suk ahahaha cage top tier losers gtfo

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

See how it works? Man has no clue what he's saying, he doesn't even play Cage, he just copypastes the twitter bullshit and actually believes it.

My what a gullible species we are.

I would like to see for once an upplay with clear arguments.

Great staggers: please insert examples and why are they great compared to baraka, nightwolf, jacqui, jax. With examples with clear frame data and matchup showcase.

Plus frames galore: please give clear examples of how that helps him and what can he do after said plus frames, with clear button examples and screen positioning, to be top tier. Compare to Kang plus frames, Shang Tsung or other plus frames examples and illustrate the exact pressure he gets after plus frames to be top tier.

Restands for days: please illustrate what he gets after restand guaranteed, how plus he is, and compare to kang restand, sonya restand, skarlet restand, and why is cage top tier compared to them.


Or the easy way out: roftlmao cage comuniti topplayers know better you suk ahahaha cage top tier losers gtfo

I def play Johnny. Had 200+ games played with him last season.

Staggers: 12, f3, 2, standing 3, and standing 34. All are effective. Mixup with completing the string, throw, or d4. Get creative.

Plus frame followups: After 124, 34u3, or ex forceballs, you have the mindgame. Will they backup? Will they backdash? Will they crouch? Will they jump? Will they respect? Make the read. It's in your favor every time. f3 catches jumps, f44 catches crouching and most pokes, b34 whiff punishes pokes, dash forward f344 catches walkback and backdash. If you're unsure, throw a forceball.

Restand: After f21 on hit, mix up with throw, 2, and 244. You can do basically anything here. You can guarantee this situation with every ex-camera.

I'm not saying he is top tier. I'm saying he is good and can hold his own with the majority of the cast. He is a solid character with plenty of tools to win.

This level of downplay makes you sound bad.

 

[jcbowie]

See how it works? Man has no clue what he's saying, he doesn't even play Cage, he just copypastes the twitter bullshit and actually believes it.

My what a gullible species we are.

I would like to see for once an upplay with clear arguments.

Great staggers: please insert examples and why are they great compared to baraka, nightwolf, jacqui, jax. With examples with clear frame data and matchup showcase.

Plus frames galore: please give clear examples of how that helps him and what can he do after said plus frames, with clear button examples and screen positioning, to be top tier. Compare to Kang plus frames, Shang Tsung or other plus frames examples and illustrate the exact pressure he gets after plus frames to be top tier.

Restands for days: please illustrate what he gets after restand guaranteed, how plus he is, and compare to kang restand, sonya restand, skarlet restand, and why is cage top tier compared to them.


Or the easy way out: roftlmao cage comuniti topplayers know better you suk ahahaha cage top tier losers gtfo

Haven't played much with SJ, but I'll bite for Showstopper.
Let's first establish the qualifier on each string that they can cancel guaranteed on block ON MOST OF THE CAST to be +3 on block at a great range for Johnny's core buttons (i.e. f2, f3, b3, f4, or even a microdash into something like d4, 1,2 staggers, or even a b2 if you're hard-reading some poke) and so I won't reiterate this with every applicable string. Any complaint about this not being universal is equivalent to a complaint about not being able to get at-will plus frames in some matchups, which is a "weakness" only insofar as you have to put in the very minimal effort of remembering not to use this followup in pressure on some characters.
Let's also establish here that at +17 on hit, d4 guarantees both f3 and f4 (and at times b3) with whatever followups you like, so I won't reiterate that every time I mention d4.

Great staggers (includes space control tools too):

Standing 1:
1,2,3 is plus 6 on block, ends in a high but can be mixed up with the 1,2,1 string (safe at -7) into followups. Anticipating this mixup, you can readily stagger with 1,2 which is 0 on block and ends in a mid. The +6 ender at great range for Johnny's core buttons (see above) or to easily retreat into bf2 zoning and bait a whiff punish with his aforementioned core buttons. While the +6 ender doesn't guarantee any of the core buttons mentioned, it DOES leave Johnny at significant advantage to approach/jump/throw/create more space, etc.

f2:
f2 is an 11 frame high with great range. By itself a great staggerable move at -2 on block, with f2,1 being -5 and f2,1,2 being -3, all viable followups that leave Johnny near the opponent. At this range you can establish 1,2 staggers, attempt to land a d4, throw, etc.

b3:
b3,4 is a half-screen covering double low-hitting string that is safe on his. 18 frames of startup not great to follow up staggers, but is easily hitconfirmable and cancellable into bf2 EX on MOST CHARACTERS on block. b3 by itself is also safe at -6, and, because the opponent will usually be anticipating a followup, can be a good situation to disrespect the frame situation on block.

3,4:
Similar to the 1,2,3 followups on block, with the minor caveat that 3,4 is -1 on block rather than 0.

Plus frames galore:

d1 - +10 on hit, guaranteeing standing 1 strings/staggers. This is typical of d1's in this game but people seem to forget this sometimes. Incidentally, for Johnny, also guarantees standing 2 followup into multi-hitting 2,4,4 string to put Johnny at -2 if blocked and is easily hit confirmable for a combo.

d3 - same as above.

1,2,3 - +6 on block, 25 frames of KD advantage on hit.

3,4 - see above, but with 24 frames of KD advantage.

d4 - see qualification at the top; +17 on hit, fully guarantees most of Johnny's core moves.

Minor but worth noting: standing 1 and 2 are both +3 on block, s3 is +2, so some minor frames on those moves as well.

Restands for days (less prominent for show stopper obviously):

in the case of Showstopper, all you get for restands is really that dd2 restand for juggles with the FB cancel, buuuuut as observed you can get conversions for upwards of 40-45% with that.

You do, however, get a ton of unbreakable grounded damage without the need for restands soooo...

 

[jcbowie]

Haven't played much with SJ, but I'll bite for Showstopper.
Let's first establish the qualifier on each string that they can cancel guaranteed on block ON MOST OF THE CAST to be +3 on block at a great range for Johnny's core buttons (i.e. f2, f3, b3, f4, or even a microdash into something like d4, 1,2 staggers, or even a b2 if you're hard-reading some poke) and so I won't reiterate this with every applicable string. Any complaint about this not being universal is equivalent to a complaint about not being able to get at-will plus frames in some matchups, which is a "weakness" only insofar as you have to put in the very minimal effort of remembering not to use this followup in pressure on some characters.
Let's also establish here that at +17 on hit, d4 guarantees both f3 and f4 (and at times b3) with whatever followups you like, so I won't reiterate that every time I mention d4.

Great staggers (includes space control tools too):

Standing 1:
1,2,3 is plus 6 on block, ends in a high but can be mixed up with the 1,2,1 string (safe at -7) into followups. Anticipating this mixup, you can readily stagger with 1,2 which is 0 on block and ends in a mid. The +6 ender at great range for Johnny's core buttons (see above) or to easily retreat into bf2 zoning and bait a whiff punish with his aforementioned core buttons. While the +6 ender doesn't guarantee any of the core buttons mentioned, it DOES leave Johnny at significant advantage

f2:
f2 is an 11 frame high with great range. By itself a great staggerable move at -2 on block, with f2,1 being -5 and f2,1,2 being -3, all viable followups that leave Johnny near the opponent. At this range you can establish 1,2 staggers, attempt to land a d4, etc.

b3:
b3,4 is a half-screen covering double low-hitting string that is safe on his. 18 frames of startup not great to follow up staggers, but is easily hitconfirmable and cancellable into bf2 EX on MOST CHARACTERS on block. b3 by itself is also safe at -6, and, because the opponent will usually be anticipating a followup, can be a good situation to disrespect the frame situation on block.

3,4:
Similar to the 1,2,3 followups on block, with the minor caveat that 3,4 is -1 on block rather than 0.

Plus frames galore:

d1 - +10 on hit, guaranteeing standing 1 strings/staggers. This is typical of d1's in this game but people seem to forget this sometimes. Incidentally, for Johnny, also guarantees standing 2 followup into multi-hitting 2,4,4 string to put Johnny at -2 if blocked and is easily hit confirmable for a combo.

d3 - same as above.

1,2,3 - +6 on block, 25 frames of KD advantage on hit.

3,4 - see above, but with 24 frames of KD advantage.

d4 - see qualification at the top; +17 on hit, fully guarantees most of Johnny's core moves.

Minor but worth noting: standing 1 and 2 are both +3 on block, s3 is +2, so some minor frames on those moves as well.

Restands for days (less prominent for show stopper obviously:

in the case of Showstopper, all you get for restands is really that dd2 restand for juggles with the FB cancel, buuuuut as observed you can get conversions for upwards of 40-45% with that.

I def play Johnny. Had 200+ games played with him last season.

Staggers: 12, f3, 2, standing 3, and standing 34. All are effective. Mixup with completing the string, throw, or d4. Get creative.

Plus frame followups: After 124, 34u3, or ex forceballs, you have the mindgame. Will they backup? Will they backdash? Will they crouch? Will they jump? Will they respect? Make the read. It's in your favor every time. f3 catches jumps, f44 catches crouching and most pokes, b34 whiff punishes pokes, dash forward f344 catches walkback and backdash. If you're unsure, throw a forceball.

Restand: After f21 on hit, mix up with throw, 2, and 244. You can do basically anything here. You can guarantee this situation with every ex-camera.

I'm not saying he is top tier. I'm saying he is good and can hold his own with the majority of the cast. He is a solid character with plenty of tools to win.

This level of downplay makes you sound bad.

Lol you just beat me to it, I'm gonna do some comparisons too.

 

[Hellz HitmaN]

Lol you just beat me to it, I'm gonna do some comparisons too.

yours is more comprehensive - good stuff

 

[Tundra81]

Haven't played much with SJ, but I'll bite for Showstopper.
Let's first establish the qualifier on each string that they can cancel guaranteed on block ON MOST OF THE CAST to be +3 on block at a great range for Johnny's core buttons (i.e. f2, f3, b3, f4, or even a microdash into something like d4, 1,2 staggers, or even a b2 if you're hard-reading some poke) and so I won't reiterate this with every applicable string. Any complaint about this not being universal is equivalent to a complaint about not being able to get at-will plus frames in some matchups, which is a "weakness" only insofar as you have to put in the very minimal effort of remembering not to use this followup in pressure on some characters.
Let's also establish here that at +17 on hit, d4 guarantees both f3 and f4 (and at times b3) with whatever followups you like, so I won't reiterate that every time I mention d4.

Great staggers (includes space control tools too):

Standing 1:
1,2,3 is plus 6 on block, ends in a high but can be mixed up with the 1,2,1 string (safe at -7) into followups. Anticipating this mixup, you can readily stagger with 1,2 which is 0 on block and ends in a mid. The +6 ender at great range for Johnny's core buttons (see above) or to easily retreat into bf2 zoning and bait a whiff punish with his aforementioned core buttons. While the +6 ender doesn't guarantee any of the core buttons mentioned, it DOES leave Johnny at significant advantage to approach/jump/create more space, etc.

f2:
f2 is an 11 frame high with great range. By itself a great staggerable move at -2 on block, with f2,1 being -5 and f2,1,2 being -3, all viable followups that leave Johnny near the opponent. At this range you can establish 1,2 staggers, attempt to land a d4, etc.

b3:
b3,4 is a half-screen covering double low-hitting string that is safe on his. 18 frames of startup not great to follow up staggers, but is easily hitconfirmable and cancellable into bf2 EX on MOST CHARACTERS on block. b3 by itself is also safe at -6, and, because the opponent will usually be anticipating a followup, can be a good situation to disrespect the frame situation on block.

3,4:
Similar to the 1,2,3 followups on block, with the minor caveat that 3,4 is -1 on block rather than 0.

Plus frames galore:

d1 - +10 on hit, guaranteeing standing 1 strings/staggers. This is typical of d1's in this game but people seem to forget this sometimes. Incidentally, for Johnny, also guarantees standing 2 followup into multi-hitting 2,4,4 string to put Johnny at -2 if blocked and is easily hit confirmable for a combo.

d3 - same as above.

1,2,3 - +6 on block, 25 frames of KD advantage on hit.

3,4 - see above, but with 24 frames of KD advantage.

d4 - see qualification at the top; +17 on hit, fully guarantees most of Johnny's core moves.

Minor but worth noting: standing 1 and 2 are both +3 on block, s3 is +2, so some minor frames on those moves as well.

Restands for days (less prominent for show stopper obviously:

in the case of Showstopper, all you get for restands is really that dd2 restand for juggles with the FB cancel, buuuuut as observed you can get conversions for upwards of 40-45% with that.

Unless I overlooked it you forgot ending combos with F21 which leaves you at a +16 restand. You could add that to "Plus Frames Galore" and "Restands for Days"

*edit I see Hellz included F21 as the restand

 

[jcbowie]

Unless I overlooked it you forgot ending combos with F21 which leaves you at a +16 restand. You could add that to "Plus Frames Galore" and "Restands for Days"

You're absolutely right, and I'm sure I've missed other stuff too, literally threw this together in a couple minutes. Definitely not a comprehensive list, but hopefully makes the point pretty clearly.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Haven't played much with SJ, but I'll bite for Showstopper.
Let's first establish the qualifier on each string that they can cancel guaranteed on block ON MOST OF THE CAST to be +3 on block at a great range for Johnny's core buttons (i.e. f2, f3, b3, f4, or even a microdash into something like d4, 1,2 staggers, or even a b2 if you're hard-reading some poke) and so I won't reiterate this with every applicable string. Any complaint about this not being universal is equivalent to a complaint about not being able to get at-will plus frames in some matchups, which is a "weakness" only insofar as you have to put in the very minimal effort of remembering not to use this followup in pressure on some characters.
Let's also establish here that at +17 on hit, d4 guarantees both f3 and f4 (and at times b3) with whatever followups you like, so I won't reiterate that every time I mention d4.

Great staggers (includes space control tools too):

Standing 1:
1,2,3 is plus 6 on block, ends in a high but can be mixed up with the 1,2,1 string (safe at -7) into followups. Anticipating this mixup, you can readily stagger with 1,2 which is 0 on block and ends in a mid. The +6 ender at great range for Johnny's core buttons (see above) or to easily retreat into bf2 zoning and bait a whiff punish with his aforementioned core buttons. While the +6 ender doesn't guarantee any of the core buttons mentioned, it DOES leave Johnny at significant advantage to approach/jump/throw/create more space, etc.

f2:
f2 is an 11 frame high with great range. By itself a great staggerable move at -2 on block, with f2,1 being -5 and f2,1,2 being -3, all viable followups that leave Johnny near the opponent. At this range you can establish 1,2 staggers, attempt to land a d4, throw, etc.

b3:
b3,4 is a half-screen covering double low-hitting string that is safe on his. 18 frames of startup not great to follow up staggers, but is easily hitconfirmable and cancellable into bf2 EX on MOST CHARACTERS on block. b3 by itself is also safe at -6, and, because the opponent will usually be anticipating a followup, can be a good situation to disrespect the frame situation on block.

3,4:
Similar to the 1,2,3 followups on block, with the minor caveat that 3,4 is -1 on block rather than 0.

Plus frames galore:

d1 - +10 on hit, guaranteeing standing 1 strings/staggers. This is typical of d1's in this game but people seem to forget this sometimes. Incidentally, for Johnny, also guarantees standing 2 followup into multi-hitting 2,4,4 string to put Johnny at -2 if blocked and is easily hit confirmable for a combo.

d3 - same as above.

1,2,3 - +6 on block, 25 frames of KD advantage on hit.

3,4 - see above, but with 24 frames of KD advantage.

d4 - see qualification at the top; +17 on hit, fully guarantees most of Johnny's core moves.

Minor but worth noting: standing 1 and 2 are both +3 on block, s3 is +2, so some minor frames on those moves as well.

Restands for days (less prominent for show stopper obviously):

in the case of Showstopper, all you get for restands is really that dd2 restand for juggles with the FB cancel, buuuuut as observed you can get conversions for upwards of 40-45% with that.

You do, however, get a ton of unbreakable grounded damage without the need for restands soooo...

Look, @M.D. is the angriest of all of us, and he's earned that...but still...Johnny isn't fucking S tier. I've played thousands of matches as Johnny. Day 1 Johnny. Sonic Fox is a fucking idiot.

 

[jcbowie]

Again, not comprehensive, but let's do some quick facts on some of the characters/matchups you mentioned.

Stagger comparison:

Baraka: 1,1 stagger is -2 on block compared to Johnny's 1,2, which is 0 on block. Baraka's f2,1, his string leading into his standing plus frames on block (which is only +1), is -8 on block and so more difficult to stagger effectively than Johnny's 3,4 or 1,2. Baraka's f4, at 12 frames of startup and -2 on block, is superior to Johnny's raw f4 while covering similar ranges, at 14 frames of startup (only a 2 frame difference) and -9 on block, and so can be used as a stagger to some degree (harder because of the animation of f4,4). However, Johnny's f4,4 is safer than Baraka's f4,4, at -5 and -7 respectively, so disrespecting frames after Johnny's f4,4 is easier than with Baraka.

Nightwolf: 1,1 is a strong tool primarily because of its 1,1,1 followup's ability to cancel into launcher with an easy hit confirm. 1,1,1 is unsafe, 1,1,2 is hard to react to but at +1 doesn't do much outside being cornered. 3,1 is probably his strongest stagger, with a KB overhead ender, but at only -3 and no real complimentary stagger I would hesitate to overstate the strength of this stagger. Nightwolf's got solid zoning and hit confirms, good damage, some decent mixups, but staggers aren't at the top of his list of strengths.

Plus Frames comparison:

Liu Kang: 2 strings that end in significant plus on block frames: 1,2 at +3 OR f4,3,U3 at +4 (albeit with a significant gap, and with f4's startup soon to be nerfed). 1,2 is a double high string, so it's not terribly hard to duck and punish if it's just getting thrown out willy nilly. Specifically in this matchup though? There's that block bug where if Johnny blocks f4,3 correctly the 3rd hit will whiff for a full punish opportunity.

Shang Tsung: Shang Tsung's f2,4,2 is +4 with a gap. However, Shang has no staggerable normals in his string up until the ender, and f2,4,2 has a very reactable gap in it allowing for flawless block. Shang's 1,1,2 is +6 on block with his best advancing normal being f2, at 17 frames, the same as Johnny's f3/f4, so a very similar situation. If one is an example of quality plus frames then so is the other.

Restands:

Like I said, not much to say about this category (since Showstopper just has the one dd2, with unbreakable) but I'm unclear on what you mean by Liu Kang's "restand," I assume you just mean strings into bf4? It's a good one for sure, not what I'd call one of his stronger attributes, only +3 and doesn't help you load up the KB. Yeah it's good, but Liu Kang is literally the gold standard for MK11 meta right now, he ought to be good. Also, doesn't do as good unbreakable damage as Johnny's bd3EX combos, FB cancels, or dd2 restands.

 

[jcbowie]

Look, @M.D. is the angriest of all of us, and he's earned that...but still...Johnny isn't fucking S tier. I've played thousands of matches as Johnny. Day 1 Johnny. Sonic Fox is a fucking idiot.

Bro, this is where I think this forum loses the forest for the trees a bit. It's not about people calling him "top tier" this and that, it's really about the fact that this community (and other forums, like Johnny players on Reddit and Twitter) has seized on that "top tier" label as a platform to downplay every single thing about this character. I'm sorry that every Johnny player feels personally insulted that pros are calling the character good, as ridiculous as that sounds to me to be angry about, but when it comes down to it? He's pretty good. And this forum talks about him like he's unplayable, literally going out of their way (looking at M.D., yeah) to go onto other discussions and threads, ANY time Johnny is mentioned, specifically to downplay and talk about how his tools aren't "really" strong, or how his frames aren't "real" plus frames, or how everyone's "upplaying" when they mention that Cage gets ridiculous damage from his FB cancel combos. He's a pretty good character, great space control/footsies (which IMO is his primary strength, with buttons that cover huge stretches of the string and are hitconfirmable, plus good zoning), but every time it's brought up there's this weird knee jerk "upplaying" sob that comes out of a large portion of Cage players.

No one thinks he's #1. But he's a good character, and there's nothing wrong with admitting to that, AND, perhaps most importantly to note, it's not a personal attack on all Cage players when someone talks about his strengths.

Side note: I'm also sick of seeing "How can a character with so many bad matchups be top10/5/whatever???" Yeah, if you presuppose that he has a ton of bad matchups because of bf2's properties then yeah it looks bad on paper, but Jesus Christ you're not giving him enough credit for a character that can be at-will plus against more than half the cast. Losing the ability to do this against female characters isn't a "weakness," it's just a detraction from advantage, and this has been a fundamental misunderstanding since day 1, namely that this difference makes Cage automatically lose every matchup against a female character.

 

[jcbowie]

Look, @M.D. is the angriest of all of us, and he's earned that...but still...Johnny isn't fucking S tier. I've played thousands of matches as Johnny. Day 1 Johnny. Sonic Fox is a fucking idiot.

I also wouldn't put so much stock in what Fox says about "tiers" anyways, like others have previously pointed out he's had some bad balance takes before.

 

[Wigy]

@jcbowie

Raw frame data doesn't give the whole picture. Just because a stagger is -2 vs 0 doesn't mean the 0 is better at all.

Also barakas f4 can be plus 2 at Max range, the second hit comes out way quicker, covers way more range has a crushing blow and catches jumps properly.

Gotta think what enforces staggers as well there's a much bigger picture than educated guesses on raw frame data

 

[jcbowie]

@jcbowie

Raw frame data doesn't give the whole picture. Just because a stagger is -2 vs 0 doesn't mean the 0 is better at all.

Also barakas f4 can be plus 2 at Max range, the second hit comes out way quicker, covers way more range has a crushing blow and catches jumps properly.

Gotta think what enforces staggers as well there's a much bigger picture than educated guesses on raw frame data

It doesn't inherently make a move superior to be 0 rather than-2, but in this case with the pretty uniform distance that those 2 strings leave you to your opponent, 2 additional frames is better.

But I do agree with the principle that raw frame data doesn't tell the whole story, because you're right, the second hit of Baraka's f4,4 comes out very fast, meaning that staggering Baraka's raw f4 is hard to do despite it's superior frames. Didn't know about the +2 at max range though, and there's no doubt that f4,4 is one of if not the best normals Baraka has. But he wanted stagger capability compared to Baraka, not damage or + frames.

I also agree that the principle of "looking at what threats back up a stagger" is important to understanding why Johnny's staggers are so strong, since he can hit-confirm and disrespect into such consistent and potentially unbreakable damage.

 

[Wigy]

I personally think aside from f3 grab stagger his staggers are just decent. He hasn't got a threatening mid check to stamp out disrespect. Worst you'll get is a d4 into a blocked f3/4.

That's my opinion. 124/121 is great for Oki stagger game in the corner though.

Most good staggers in this game are mids or characters with great mid checks and solid oki

 

[mrapchem]

It doesn't inherently make a move superior to be 0 rather than-2, but in this case with the pretty uniform distance that those 2 strings leave you to your opponent, 2 additional frames is better.

But I do agree with the principle that raw frame data doesn't tell the whole story, because you're right, the second hit of Baraka's f4,4 comes out very fast, meaning that staggering Baraka's raw f4 is hard to do despite it's superior frames. Didn't know about the +2 at max range though, and there's no doubt that f4,4 is one of if not the best normals Baraka has. But he wanted stagger capability compared to Baraka, not damage or + frames.

I also agree that the principle of "looking at what threats back up a stagger" is important to understanding why Johnny's staggers are so strong, since he can hit-confirm and disrespect into such consistent and potentially unbreakable damage.

Generally speaking, recovery frames determine how good a stagger is, rather than how safe a normal is on block. A good stagger normal or string will recover at around 12-18 frames. It being -2 or 0 on block is inconsequential.

 

[Wigy]

Generally speaking, recovery frames determine how good a stagger is, rather than how safe a normal is on block. A good stagger normal or string will recover at around 12-18 frames. It being -2 or 0 on block is inconsequential.

It also heavily depends on the followup.

Is there a third special cancellable hit?
Is the third hit staggered? Generally a sizable gap before the last hit with most of the movement frames later in the animation makes for a better stagger
Is there a pokable gap?

 

[mrapchem]

It also heavily depends on the followup.

Is there a third special cancellable hit?
Is the third hit staggered? Generally a sizable gap before the last hit with most of the movement frames later in the animation makes for a better stagger
Is there a pokable gap?

Precisely.

 

[jcbowie]

Generally speaking, recovery frames determine how good a stagger is, rather than how safe a normal is on block. A good stagger normal or string will recover at around 12-18 frames. It being -2 or 0 on block is inconsequential.

If that's the main factor and those are the criteria then neither of these characters have any good staggers except for Johnny's standing punch buttons. And there are very few good staggers in this game. Baraka's fastest recovering non-poke move is s1 at exactly 18 frames, Johnny's standing punch buttons recover within 11-12 frames. There are also very few staggers in this game that this brief of a recovery beyond a few standing buttons and aberrations like Liu's 1,2 or Jax's f2.

EDIT: Even Jax's f2 is slightly slower than this on recovery, -19.

Distance absolutely factors into how strong staggers are, because they dictate what kinds of followups can be used. Advantage is relevant because it indicates how difficult it would be to poke out of a stagger. Options are relevant in a more meta way, skewing risk reward against poking out.

 

[Wigy]

If someone blocks cages 1 and mashes after worst he will eat is 121 sk.

Baraka can do his into a full combo.

Just a case example.

You'd need to read the disrespect for cage baraka can react to it as his special cancellable third hit doesn't launch.

 

[jcbowie]

If someone blocks cages 1 and mashes after worst he will eat is 121 sk.

Baraka can do his into a full combo.

Just a case example.

You'd need to read the disrespect for cage baraka can react to it as his special cancellable third hit doesn't launch.

Why not just do 2,4,4 in that situation? Easier to hit confirm than Baraka's cancellable starter and an extra hit. 1 frame slower and only -2 on block after the whole string, assuming you don't cancel into bf2. Still can't poke out of it.

 

[mrapchem]

Why not just do 2,4,4 in that situation? Easier to hit confirm than Baraka's cancellable starter and an extra hit. 1 frame slower and only -2 on block after the whole string, assuming you don't cancel into bf2. Still can't poke out of it.

244 is kinda funky on whiff. On hit/block, it's fine, but the timing is weird when you miss the S2. Plus, you can only stagger the 2, which is pretty decent, but limiting.

 

[Wigy]

Without a third hit, you cannot enforce any real thread with launch hitconfirm while also staggering. I.e 12-np on hit 12 stagger or 124 or 121 sk etc

It's essentially 2 4 as it's a dial an input

 

[jcbowie]

244 is kinda funky on whiff. On hit/block, it's fine, but the timing is weird when you miss the S2. Plus, you can only stagger the 2, which is pretty decent, but limiting.

Why would you miss the s2 in this situation? Even from catching a block on the very tip of s1, 2,4,4 connects in it's entirety on hit or on block, they have to hold it.

 

[jcbowie]

Without a third hit, you cannot enforce any real thread with launch hitconfirm while also staggering. I.e 12-np on hit 12 stagger or 124 or 121 sk etc

It's essentially 2 4 as it's a dial an input

Well yeah, you can't get another stagger with 2,4,4 after your stagger, but you can absolutely launch. I'm not saying that all of Cage's stagger options lead into all of his subsequent staggers, the point of a stagger is to give you an opening, and 2,4,4 allows him to easily hit confirm.

Although, since 2,4,4 is -2 on block, you can absolutely disrespect afterwards pretty readily.