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MK1 Patch Notes

I still have the audio cut out in a match sometimes. That's the major issue I'm getting.
me too, often after frosts ground ice. the game also crashes more than ever before and almost every connection turns lagfest after a while. i could swear its havik/frost somehow causing this, i feel its not that bad with other chars.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
I don’t think I’d say the move was gutted. It still has all the utility that it did before, just not as frequently.

If you majorly buff every single other Kameo to be as powerful and safe, the chances of ending up with a new move that has the exact same issue of being the best in every situation is extremely high. Toning down braindead options automatically makes others more attractive and opens up the meta of the game.
At the end you said, "Toning down braindead options automatically makes others more attractive and opens up the meta of the game."

I had this giant long post in mind, but there's no point because that one sentence covers it all. I have had MUCH more FUN, keyword "fun", since the nerfs. Almost everyone is having more fun playing/watching.

The game has been much more diverse, as I've seen much more Sektor, more Stryker, more Sareena, more Frost. The uptick in Lao has been minimal and wasn't nearly as dumb anyway, I still see Cyrax some matches. I still see Baraka just not as much, still see Raiden just not as much, and see other characters more now. It's not even debatable, the game is significantly more diverse now in selection and gameplay.

And the funniest part of all, I've seen a lot of complaints about "the game will become boring/samey/stale/etc with nerfs", but I haven't heard one person actually SAY the game IS worse NOW than BEFORE the nerfs. People are saying "what will happen" while also enjoying how much more improved the overall game is after the patch. Cognitive Dissonance hits hard in this thread.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
I had this giant long post in mind, but there's no point because that one sentence covers it all. I have had MUCH more FUN, keyword "fun", since the nerfs. Almost everyone is having more fun playing/watching.
g.
THIS.

The trick here, as always, is just play the games. Don't theory craft based on a patch you haven't installed or a character you've only watched someone 1000 times better than you.

There's a reason we're all here, there's a reason we all love them, and it's not the amount of + frames in a kameo activation.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
The uptick in Lao has been minimal and wasn't nearly as dumb anyway...
I have been playing Kombat League for two to three hours daily since the patch was released, and I can confidently say that there has been an increase in Kung Lao kameos, who was already popular pre-patch, and a large decrease in Cyrax kameos. Common characters who use Kung Lao as the kameo include Johnny Cage, General Shao, Li Mei, Liu Kang, Mileena, Nitara, and Shang Tsung. Even some of the Baraka players are using Kung Lao now. LOL.

I am not suggesting that the game is worse or that Kung Lao's low hat should be nerfed, but what is obvious is that Cyrax has clearly been over-nerfed. Full kameo use and 18 seconds of cool down on the kopter chopper was not the balanced solution to the Cyrax problem.
 
It didn’t need to be nerfed at all. And that’s an absolute TERRIBLE mindset to “nerf every move people use too often”. That’ll just lead once again to a completely boring game that no one has fun playing. The reason moves like Cyrax’s horizontal kopter chopper was so overused is because one, of course it’s a very good move and it’s versatile. But also, there’s no other Kameo move close to being as good. Especially when you factor in that upwards kopter chopper is also super good and useful. His other Kameo moves are not nearly as useful, his bomb for instance is never used and his net is rarely used. The reason is because both have way too long of a startup, aren’t versatile, AND using them takes away Kameo meter for the much MUCH stronger kopter chopper.

You don’t nerf moves that are used too often, you look at why they’re used as often as they are. For instance if it’s a Kameo move, instead of gutting that move that is used a lot, you’d understand why it was used so much, then you’d reexamine the other Kameos and their moves and why they’re hardly used. Then it’s a matter of fixing these Kameos and Kameo moves so that 1 Kameo and 1 Kameo move isn’t dominating the meta.

NRS seemingly doesn’t care about the competitive longevity of their games. So it’s MUCH easier for them to just gut whatever the overused move is so that they don’t have to worry about it again. This is an abysmal way to go about it if you, as I said, care about the competitive longevity of your game as well as the competitive integrity, freedom of expression, giving players more options not less, etc.

If how NRS games perform competitively have very little impact on their overall sales, why would they not be making balancing changes based on feedback from the competitive community? Like in games like the Souls series, and most recently Elden Ring. Multiple balance patches for the PvP in Elden Ring were almost a 1:1 from what the competitive community wanted and the decisions that were ultimately made. Of course, not everything that they comp community asked for or wanted was implemented, but a very large portion was, which showed very clearly that FromSoft cared about the competitive community and didn’t just do whatever they wanted based on the cries of scrubs. The PvP in Elden Ring or other Souls games is similar to the competitive scene in NRS games. In that the overwhelming majority of sales in NRS games are from casuals who probably will never play the game competitively at all, and a lot never even play the game online. And similarly, in FromSoft games, most of the playerbase never PvP, and only do so when they are forced to via the games system where if you summon other players to help you, that opens you up to be “invaded” by another player whose goal is to find and kill you. So, any balance changes they make to the PvP is solely for the small % of players that actually partake in the PvP. And an even smaller % that participates in the PvP competitively. They do this because the quality of their games matters to them, as well as the games longevity. And the PvP community who plays their games also matters to them.

Just wish NRS cared more about the quality and longevity of their games especially competitively.
That’s the thing though, it’s not NRS it’s the PLAYERS, the players want characters gutted so they don’t have to deal with them anymore, look at how many “I love this new patch” post there are by these types of players only for them to go back to complaining about Raiden being strong, they want these characters nerfed into the ground simply to not deal with them anymore without realizing that there is always going to be characters that give them trouble.

EDIT: I had a lot of trouble with Baraka in the game and thought he was OD but I actually took the time to study the match ups and watch my matches back and looked at my inputs and discovered that a lot of these fangfaced users were getting away with murder because of latency not because of how good the character is but it’s much easier to complain and campaign for nerfs because obviously NRS listens.

(Not to say Baraka WASNT OD though lmaooo)

It’s a
“sKiLl iSsUE.”
 
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rifraf

Noob
That’s the thing though, it’s not NRS it’s the PLAYERS, the players want characters gutted so they don’t have to deal with them anymore, look at how many “I love this new patch” post there are by these types of players only for them to go back to complaining about Raiden being strong, they want these characters nerfed into the ground simply to not deal with them anymore without realizing that there is always going to be characters that give them trouble.

EDIT: I had a lot of trouble with Baraka in the game and thought he was OD but I actually took the time to study the match ups and watch my matches back and looked at my inputs and discovered that a lot of these fangfaced users were getting away with murder because of latency not because of how good the character is but it’s much easier to complain and campaign for nerfs because obviously NRS listens.

(Not to say Baraka WASNT OD though lmaooo)

It’s a
“sKiLl iSsUE.”
In my experience browsing the MK subreddit and this forum, I didn't see many people asking for nerfs. On the contrary, the majority was asking for buffs. In regards to what we got in the patch, I strongly believe it's on NRS.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
I have been playing Kombat League for two to three hours daily since the patch was released, and I can confidently say that there has been an increase in Kung Lao kameos, who was already popular pre-patch, and a large decrease in Cyrax kameos. Common characters who use Kung Lao as the kameo include Johnny Cage, General Shao, Li Mei, Liu Kang, Mileena, Nitara, and Shang Tsung. Even some of the Baraka players are using Kung Lao now. LOL.

I am not suggesting that the game is worse or that Kung Lao's low hat should be nerfed, but what is obvious is that Cyrax has clearly been over-nerfed. Full kameo use and 18 seconds of cool down on the kopter chopper was not the balanced solution to the Cyrax problem.
It's been a while since I completely disagreed with you haha. I don't think he was overnerfed at all. In his old version, he basically rendered almost all other kameos and options obsolete, as you simply had an autopilot best-option seemingly always available. Everything from WU to poke to string to anything was chopper chopper chopper into always plus plus plus or chip or combo. One braincell required. Now, he still has the option, but can only use it about once per round if wanted which is more than fair considering how strong an option it is. He also can still combo off his grab, still has high damage ambush combos, etc for half a Kameo bar.

Prepatch it wasn't just strong, it was a real-world example of what broken looks like. Now it's more in line with what a Kameo should be, and isn't nowhere close to the old kill-char nerfs like INJ2 Deadshot types of nerfing. Kameos should complement a character and their ability, not make the character better than every combination by picking that kameo.
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
That’s the thing though, it’s not NRS it’s the PLAYERS, the players want characters gutted so they don’t have to deal with them anymore, look at how many “I love this new patch” post there are by these types of players only for them to go back to complaining about Raiden being strong, they want these characters nerfed into the ground simply to not deal with them anymore without realizing that there is always going to be characters that give them trouble.

EDIT: I had a lot of trouble with Baraka in the game and thought he was OD but I actually took the time to study the match ups and watch my matches back and looked at my inputs and discovered that a lot of these fangfaced users were getting away with murder because of latency not because of how good the character is but it’s much easier to complain and campaign for nerfs because obviously NRS listens.

(Not to say Baraka WASNT OD though lmaooo)

It’s a
“sKiLl iSsUE.”
I don't know if I have a good way of saying this, but I'm sometimes inclined to think this cuts both ways. That a lot of times when people are wanting to "express their creativity" and having "fun" what that really translates into is they are hyper aggressive players that want to flowchart some craziness while hoping most people just drown under block string into Kameo into block string into Kameo or whatever a game allows. There isn't really any creativity being expressed, and there isn't any more actual interest in having an evolving exchange of thoughts or incentive to lab anything.

"Fun" is relative. If you are highly aggressive and somewhat good at getting someone opened up then you might be having a really good time Cyraxing all over someone. If you aren't as skilled or just more passive, then you are stuck blocking and watching long combos for forever and that's probably a lot less fun. There are a lot of people of various skills and temperaments and commitment levels all trying to play the same game all wanting what they want for their group and NRS doesn't have the luxury catering to one exclusively. There are only a handful of top 8 level players that will actually be able to juggle a complex game's system, and I have a hard time believing a quarter of the people concerned with the high level are going to miss any perceived complexity they weren't actually tapping into. Next to nobody in any game actually wants to stop hitting buttons, or doing things, or thinks it's fun when the other player gets to do anything at all. That's just a reality nobody can change, and has to be considered at least to some degree in how things are tuned. Sometimes it doesn't matter if there is technically a way out, or things you can do. If it's the easiest thing in the world to do and only the best and most committed players are going to be able to shut it down, then that's likely unhealthy, lopsided tuning

Having a game full of ultra powerful stuff (buff everything and everyone!!!!) causes and commitment and education overhead to deal with stuff that might be pretty easy to do but not anywhere as easy to stop. People that just "do the thing" become weirdly empowered and it's not necessarily because the put in the work.
 
I don't know if I have a good way of saying this, but I'm sometimes inclined to think this cuts both ways. That a lot of times when people are wanting to "express their creativity" and having "fun" what that really translates into is they are hyper aggressive players that want to flowchart some craziness while hoping most people just drown under block string into Kameo into block string into Kameo or whatever a game allows. There isn't really any creativity being expressed, and there isn't any more actual interest in having an evolving exchange of thoughts or incentive to lab anything.

"Fun" is relative. If you are highly aggressive and somewhat good at getting someone opened up then you might be having a really good time Cyraxing all over someone. If you aren't as skilled or just more passive, then you are stuck blocking and watching long combos for forever and that's probably a lot less fun. There are a lot of people of various skills and temperaments and commitment levels all trying to play the same game all wanting what they want for their group and NRS doesn't have the luxury catering to one exclusively. There are only a handful of top 8 level players that will actually be able to juggle a complex game's system, and I have a hard time believing a quarter of the people concerned with the high level are going to miss any perceived complexity they weren't actually tapping into. Next to nobody in any game actually wants to stop hitting buttons, or doing things, or thinks it's fun when the other player gets to do anything at all. That's just a reality nobody can change, and has to be considered at least to some degree in how things are tuned. Sometimes it doesn't matter if there is technically a way out, or things you can do. If it's the easiest thing in the world to do and only the best and most committed players are going to be able to shut it down, then that's likely unhealthy, lopsided tuning

Having a game full of ultra powerful stuff (buff everything and everyone!!!!) causes and commitment and education overhead to deal with stuff that might be pretty easy to do but not anywhere as easy to stop. People that just "do the thing" become weirdly empowered and it's not necessarily because the put in the work.
amen.
 
I don't know if I have a good way of saying this, but I'm sometimes inclined to think this cuts both ways. That a lot of times when people are wanting to "express their creativity" and having "fun" what that really translates into is they are hyper aggressive players that want to flowchart some craziness while hoping most people just drown under block string into Kameo into block string into Kameo or whatever a game allows. There isn't really any creativity being expressed, and there isn't any more actual interest in having an evolving exchange of thoughts or incentive to lab anything.

"Fun" is relative. If you are highly aggressive and somewhat good at getting someone opened up then you might be having a really good time Cyraxing all over someone. If you aren't as skilled or just more passive, then you are stuck blocking and watching long combos for forever and that's probably a lot less fun. There are a lot of people of various skills and temperaments and commitment levels all trying to play the same game all wanting what they want for their group and NRS doesn't have the luxury catering to one exclusively. There are only a handful of top 8 level players that will actually be able to juggle a complex game's system, and I have a hard time believing a quarter of the people concerned with the high level are going to miss any perceived complexity they weren't actually tapping into. Next to nobody in any game actually wants to stop hitting buttons, or doing things, or thinks it's fun when the other player gets to do anything at all. That's just a reality nobody can change, and has to be considered at least to some degree in how things are tuned. Sometimes it doesn't matter if there is technically a way out, or things you can do. If it's the easiest thing in the world to do and only the best and most committed players are going to be able to shut it down, then that's likely unhealthy, lopsided tuning

Having a game full of ultra powerful stuff (buff everything and everyone!!!!) causes and commitment and education overhead to deal with stuff that might be pretty easy to do but not anywhere as easy to stop. People that just "do the thing" become weirdly empowered and it's not necessarily because the put in the work.
The thing about what you said at the end about buffing everyone and everything(not making them Uber powerful but strong) is that whilst it looks bad on paper it’s never been done before.

BUT we have had several NRS games filled with nerfs that catered to casual players and the turn out is always the same, it always goes back to how it was on launch.

Remember the last MK11 tournament with Fujin mirrors? Was that any different than everyone using infinite warden in the beginning tournaments?

or even any different than cage/raiden/cyrax vs cage/raiden/cyrax?

No matter how many nerfs you get every game always ends with a handful of characters that make the others irrelevant.

it’s time to do something different.

EDIT: I’m not saying what you said is bad in anyway, there’s things that can and need to be toned down of course, but NRS tends to make things go away so they don’t hear complaining anymore.
 

Gooberking

FGC Cannon Fodder
The thing about what you said at the end about buffing everyone and everything(not making them Uber powerful but strong) is that whilst it looks bad on paper it’s never been done before.

BUT we have had several NRS games filled with nerfs that catered to casual players and the turn out is always the same, it always goes back to how it was on launch.

Remember the last MK11 tournament with Fujin mirrors? Was that any different than everyone using infinite warden in the beginning tournaments?

or even any different than cage/raiden/cyrax vs cage/raiden/cyrax?

No matter how many nerfs you get every game always ends with a handful of characters that make the others irrelevant.

it’s time to do something different.

EDIT: I’m not saying what you said is bad in anyway, there’s things that can and need to be toned down of course, but NRS tends to make things go away so they don’t hear complaining anymore.
Isn't that basically what KI2013 is? There is a lot going on in that game and as fun as it is to watch, you got to know the game if you don't want to get blown up full screen for what seems to be no good reason

As an FYI IDK how much of what I said was fully related to your post vs generally to the air so don't feel like it was fully aimed in your direction
 
Isn't that basically what KI2013 is? There is a lot going on in that game and as fun as it is to watch, you got to know the game if you don't want to get blown up full screen for what seems to be no good reason

As an FYI IDK how much of what I said was fully related to your post vs generally to the air so don't feel like it was fully aimed in your direction
I was talking strictly for NRS games, I never really followed KI because by the time Cinder released I had stopped caring lol.
 

Bloodfang

The Immortal Tiger
The thing about what you said at the end about buffing everyone and everything(not making them Uber powerful but strong) is that whilst it looks bad on paper it’s never been done before.

BUT we have had several NRS games filled with nerfs that catered to casual players and the turn out is always the same, it always goes back to how it was on launch.

Remember the last MK11 tournament with Fujin mirrors? Was that any different than everyone using infinite warden in the beginning tournaments?

or even any different than cage/raiden/cyrax vs cage/raiden/cyrax?

No matter how many nerfs you get every game always ends with a handful of characters that make the others irrelevant.

it’s time to do something different.
Exactly. If everyone is buffed to be very strong in their own ways and have the freedom to be creative like we were sold on (or at least I was after 11 rubbed me in the bad way), then we finally get a game where tier lists truly don't matter and it really does come down to player skill and experience. You can't argue that X character or team has an unfair advantage if their aren't characters that are clearly better (pre path Raiden/Baraka/Cage with Cyrax) and others that clearly need some help to be on their level like Sub-Zero or arguably Scorpion if you were doing anything besides Spin to Chip Out (which only worked because Cyrax and he no longer has that capability or at least not enough to reliably build a winning gameplan around it). Instead of nerfs, elevate the strugglers. Cyrax/Lao too damn useful that why would pick others? Figure out what it is that make everyone pick them and bump up the unused ones to give equivalent advantages in other ways or types. Not saying everybody has to be as safe as Cyrax kopter or as fast as Lao Hat but you know great in other ways. Make more moves ambush types for more offensive/defensive applications. I've played so many of the other kameos and just thought "Wow this would almost be really useful if it just...".

Edit: The character uniqueness and playstyle diversity in KI2013 are what make it one of my fav fighting games of all time. They are actually going back to it to revive it for modern gen XBox. I really wish it would get rereleased on Playstation to get it the attention and sales it deserves. I wish NRS put as much individual attention and care into crafting each character as the KI2013 team clearly did.
 
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NoCharge

Noob
These nerfs are a joke. Smoke does a combo using Sareena boomerangs twice, and by the end of it Sareena recovers fully.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
These nerfs are a joke. Smoke does a combo using Sareena boomerangs twice, and by the end of it Sareena recovers fully.
I've heard you actually can't use Kameos anymore.. Like they've been removed from the game :DOGE How can this be true?