Microsoft Respond To Concerns Over Xbox1

[JaredL]

So if buying/selling used games actually helps the industry, why do publishers want to see the practice end? Are they all just wrong and actually quite stupid compared to economic masterminds like "Dorito Pope?

Ever wonder why microtransactions and large content DLC packs (developed in parallel with retail) are so ubiquitous in the current console generation? Do you like these trends?

Why?

Greed.

 

[Ilthuain]

Why?

Greed.

I really hate to break this to you, but making games is a business, so making money is always the number one priority. It was never about delivering the awesomest funtime experience to the user because the user deserves radical video games. Honestly, calling a business "greedy" is one of the most naive things I have ever read. They are trying to make money with their product. This is capitalism, not a charity.

DLC and microtransactions potentially add value to the product after sale, even if the sale was second hand. That's the reason every major game needs it.

There are many odious decisions that are being made now in order to deal with the used game issue. Adding grind ("RPG elements") to a game that really doesn't benefit from them, for example, is an attempt to keep the product in the user's hands long enough to reduce the primary sale window used marketplace. Same thing with mind-numbing collection mechanics. Appointment mechanics aren't far behind, all because ARPU is becoming far more important than trying to make all your money off the initial sale.

So, even though you may not realize it, the prevalence of the used game market is dramatically affecting the games you play. If you want more Zynga-style compulsion loops and monetization pressures designed into your console games, then this shouldn't bother you at all. If you don't, than you should be a little concerned about the direction the industry is heading.

 

[aj1701]

You're essentially equating it being legal with it being okay or right, and it's nothing like that. The essential argument is that the players also are in the longterm advantaged once the leeching of money is taken care of.

We're all agreeing that development is essentially a creative venture, and top-level megacorp dickbags aside, almost everyone involved has interest and passion in making as good games as they can, if they're allowed to. The same cannot be said for the secondhand retailers. As a player, your interests largely coincide with the developers, and don't coincide really at all with the resellers.

Yes, it is ok. You do realize t copyright exists ONLY because of law right, there is no inherent concept. And copyright is meant to be balanced, meaning its supposed to expire and ideas returned to the public domain. The first sale doctrine is one of the traditional safety valves and applies to software as well as books or music.

Your argument calling it leeching is stupid. What makes software different from books or movies?

Do you think its wrong that I sell my house used too, thus denying a home builder the ability to sell a new home? Gtfo here.

 

[JaredL]

I really hate to break this to you, but making games is a business, so making money is always the number one priority. It was never about delivering the awesomest funtime experience to the user because the user deserves radical video games. Honestly, calling a business "greedy" is one of the most naive things I have ever read. They are trying to make money with their product. This is capitalism, not a charity.

DLC and microtransactions potentially add value to the product after sale, even if the sale was second hand. That's the reason every major game needs it.

There are many odious decisions that are being made now in order to deal with the used game issue. Adding grind ("RPG elements") to a game that really doesn't benefit from them, for example, is an attempt to keep the product in the user's hands long enough to reduce the primary sale window used marketplace. Same thing with mind-numbing collection mechanics. Appointment mechanics aren't far behind, all because ARPU is becoming far more important than trying to make all your money off the initial sale.

So, even though you may not realize it, the prevalence of the used game market is dramatically affecting the games you play. If you want more Zynga-style compulsion loops and monetization pressures designed into your console games, then this shouldn't bother you at all. If you don't, than you should be a little concerned about the direction the industry is heading.

Like I said. Greed.

Capitalism=greed is good.

I agree that publishers should be able to look out for their interests. But you know what too, I believe I should be able to look after my own interests.

You might as well donate your money to EA and save yourself the middleman of having microsoft do it for you with the xbox one.

 

[aj1701]

I don't think assigning blame and discussing who's problem it is solves anything. If people continue to want AAA games, something has to change, because it's just too risky with the 2nd hand market.



Eh, I've encountered too many game-school graduates to believe that creativity is being taught effectively. I'd love to be proven wrong on this one.

Funny that the same studios seem to pump out aaa games time and again without going bankrupt.

I've encountered a lot of grads with Cs degrees that aren't very good too; doesn't mean Cs can't be taught, just that there are a lot of crappy schools.

 

[aj1701]

I don't think assigning blame and discussing who's problem it is solves anything. If people continue to want AAA games, something has to change, because it's just too risky with the 2nd hand market.



Eh, I've encountered too many game-school graduates to believe that creativity is being taught effectively. I'd love to be proven wrong on this one.

I'd like to add something which is likely very common. I bought fallout three used, never heard of it. Box looked cool and it was under thirty dollars. I fell in love with it, bought all the dlc, got nv when that came out, and its dlc too. The series is now an instabuy for me on day one. I would have never tried it if my only option was full price new. Additionally I keep up on what Bethesda is doing and tried elder scrolls as well. I'd never heard of Bethesda before fo.

So please, keep trying to tell me used games are a problem. Also with xbone, you can't rent. Lots of games I am not sure of I rent since I was burned by operation raccoon city on day one.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Like I said. Greed.

Capitalism=greed is good.

I agree that publishers should be able to look out for their interests. But you know what too, I believe I should be able to look after my own interests.

You might as well donate your money to EA and save yourself the middleman of having microsoft do it for you with the xbox one.

I guess wanting games cheaper is greed on our part then? Really if that's the case then pretty much everything could be broken down to being greed.

I agree, everyone has the right to do whatever they want. They have the right to charge, we have the right to not buy and everyone is free to make their own decision. Regardless of what the decision is it's what you wanted so in the end it could be considered selfish or greedy.

 

[JaredL]

I guess wanting games cheaper is greed on our part then? Really if that's the case then pretty much everything could be broken down to being greed.

I agree, everyone has the right to do whatever they want. They have the right to charge, we have the right to not buy and everyone is free to make their own decision. Regardless of what the decision is it's what you wanted so in the end it could be considered selfish or greedy.

Pretty much. Sony satisfies my greed as a consumer. Microsoft satisfies greed of publishers. I'm not a publisher so I'll go with Sony.

 

[Kisze]

-snip-

Sick contribution to the discussion with those image macros. Here's 'nother:

 

[windsagio]

Yes, it is ok. You do realize t copyright exists ONLY because of law right, there is no inherent concept. And copyright is meant to be balanced, meaning its supposed to expire and ideas returned to the public domain. The first sale doctrine is one of the traditional safety valves and applies to software as well as books or music.

Your argument calling it leeching is stupid. What makes software different from books or movies?

Do you think its wrong that I sell my house used too, thus denying a home builder the ability to sell a new home? Gtfo here.

In this case it's wrong because you're hurting yourself. It's bad for everyone (again except for the leeches). Sure they can do it, but we'd be fools to applaud or encourage it, because it hurts us.

If resales existed in a vacuum where the only result was people getting cheaper games, I'd be for it... hell who wouldn't?

 

[aj1701]

In this case it's wrong because you're hurting yourself. It's bad for everyone (again except for the leeches). Sure they can do it, but we'd be fools to applaud or encourage it, because it hurts us.

If resales existed in a vacuum where the only result was people getting cheaper games, I'd be for it... hell who wouldn't?

Its not wrong to sell anything used. You could name make the exact same argument for any used item.

If anything, used games help the developers and gamers alike, but some are just too blind to see it.

I like how you ignore how I said the availibility if a used game lead me ti buy dlc and two other games new, and you dont try to explain why video games are the only product that is threatened by a used market.

Its not wrong just because you say so, and your flawed logic is foolish.

 

[Ilthuain]

Funny that the same studios seem to pump out aaa games time and again without going bankrupt.

22% loss YoY.

I'd like to add something which is likely very common. I bought fallout three used, never heard of it. Box looked cool and it was under thirty dollars. I fell in love with it, bought all the dlc, got nv when that came out, and its dlc too. The series is now an instabuy for me on day one. I would have never tried it if my only option was full price new. Additionally I keep up on what Bethesda is doing and tried elder scrolls as well. I'd never heard of Bethesda before fo.

So please, keep trying to tell me used games are a problem. Also with xbone, you can't rent. Lots of games I am not sure of I rent since I was burned by operation raccoon city on day one.

Your anecdote doesn't change the fact that potential revenue is being siphoned by a middle-man. There is no evidence (that I am aware of) that suggests increased discoverability of products due to used game sales increased overall revenue for game publishers. Your specific purchasing habits may have been altered and biased in favor of Bethesda products, but there is no indication that the revenue they lose in used game sales (revenue that the retailer gains, of course) is an investment.

 

[LesMore]

I really hate to break this to you, but making games is a business, so making money is always the number one priority. It was never about delivering the awesomest funtime experience to the user because the user deserves radical video games. Honestly, calling a business "greedy" is one of the most naive things I have ever read. They are trying to make money with their product. This is capitalism, not a charity.

DLC and microtransactions potentially add value to the product after sale, even if the sale was second hand. That's the reason every major game needs it.

There are many odious decisions that are being made now in order to deal with the used game issue. Adding grind ("RPG elements") to a game that really doesn't benefit from them, for example, is an attempt to keep the product in the user's hands long enough to reduce the primary sale window used marketplace. Same thing with mind-numbing collection mechanics. Appointment mechanics aren't far behind, all because ARPU is becoming far more important than trying to make all your money off the initial sale.

So, even though you may not realize it, the prevalence of the used game market is dramatically affecting the games you play. If you want more Zynga-style compulsion loops and monetization pressures designed into your console games, then this shouldn't bother you at all. If you don't, than you should be a little concerned about the direction the industry is heading.

Used games keep alot of people employed... what about all the useless people this is creating...

 

[aj1701]

22% loss YoY.



Your anecdote doesn't change the fact that potential revenue is being siphoned by a middle-man. There is no evidence (that I am aware of) that suggests increased discoverability of products due to used game sales increased overall revenue for game publishers. Your specific purchasing habits may have been altered and biased in favor of Bethesda products, but there is no indication that the revenue they lose in used game sales (revenue that the retailer gains, of course) is an investment.

Right, I bet the loss is from counting every used sale as a loss. And ignores the huge number of games which are competing, including a larger casual market. Personally, its more likely these companies dont have a good handle on running their business and mishandling their resources.

Listen, there its nothing wrong with used games. Companies best adapt, or die. Even if used games do have the effect you say, I dont give a damn.

Games fall under copyright law and copyright law says second hand is legal. Copyright is meant to benefit holders short term, but society long term, which is why theyre supposed to expire. go read the ruling on why they courts created the first sale doctrine. Your argument apply to bids music and movies too. They seem to be doing fine even with used markets.

 

[windsagio]

Its not wrong to sell anything used. You could name make the exact same argument for any used item.

If anything, used games help the developers and gamers alike, but some are just too blind to see it.

I like how you ignore how I said the availibility if a used game lead me ti buy dlc and two other games new, and you dont try to explain why video games are the only product that is threatened by a used market.

Its not wrong just because you say so, and your flawed logic is foolish.

I think we're using different senses of the word 'wrong'. I wouldn't say there's any *moral* wrong in resales, but it's destructive and shortsighted. Also, essentially no developer agrees with you that it helps sales... and I'd imagine they'd know.

These companies have MASSIVE amounts of information at their fingertips that we don't see, all kinds of data collection and analytics. They know what games sell, and they probably have a fair idea of how many people playing are resales (from comparing unique IDs to sales, etc). And again, business. If resales helped them they'd be all over it, but in fact at Trade shows they actively make fun of the position you're taking and go out of their way to mock Gamestop specifically (bitter mockery, I'd add).

They have nothing to lose either way, except sales... so why are they so adamantly against something you claim actually helps them?

 

[Ilthuain]

Listen, there its nothing wrong with used games. Companies best adapt, or die. Even if used games do have the effect you say, I dont give a damn.

They are adapting. I'm not so sure you're going to like the results.

If push comes to shove, all games will be registered to your account, but you'll be free to sell or trade the worthless physical media. More likely, all games will be delivered digitally and you won't have the option to trade your license. One way or another, the used game market will be dead within 10 years.

 

[windsagio]

They are adapting. I'm not so sure you're going to like the results.

If push comes to shove, all games will be registered to your account, but you'll be free to sell or trade the worthless physical media. More likely, all games will be delivered digitally and you won't have the option to trade your license. One way or another, the used game market will be dead within 10 years.

To steal a comment my friend made about this, there's also always microtransactions. We could just make console games like mobile or facebook games, and make money off of the grind!

...

No wait, mobile and facebook games, while growing and profitable, are only digitally distributed. Damn!

 

[redrum_am]

PLEASE PEOPLE TAKE A MINUTE AND READ! I to want to play Titanfall and Killer Instinct. Microsoft says this is the future, it is only the future if we allow it. Why are the Xbox guys settling for digital copies only? Screw that I want a hard copy I can do with what I want. I know not a good enough argument, but look at it this way. God forbid Microsoft go belly up just like Facebook what happens? That will never happen, maybe, but why is it so hard to grasp they are screwing you. This is where it gets really nasty, you have to have Xbox live to watch Netflix or enjoy any other app on the Xbox One. How is paying a membership in order to watch your membership any where remotely a sane idea? I will keep it short and sweet with this....Say you are banned on Xbox live for calling someone something or a numerous number of reasons, guess what you can not play or watch these things you have payed for. Microsoft will be like your parent and tell each and everyone one of use that I know your a grown a$$ adult but until you can make sure you know how to behave, guess what? Your not playing these games you spent your hard earned money on! Then what the hell are you going to do? It just does not seem like a responsible choice for a consumer to give up that much of their Freedom! Over!

 

[windsagio]

Microsoft says this is the future, it is only the future if we allow it. Why are the Xbox guys settling for digital copies only?

Because it's no longer 1998?

 

[redrum_am]

Because it's no longer 1998?

Stay Free Windsagio! Over!

 

[Konqrr]

advantages for you, though:
1) not having to worry about losing or damaging the physical media (including the 'go back and open the case, oops it's empty!')
2) being able to fairly easily play a game at any remote location that has both a console and internet.
3) convenience of not having to worry about shipping dates and going to pick up the game.
4) the ability to come back to a game any time in the entireity of the services' life.
5) better and more varied products because developers won't have to worry about getting raped by second-hand sales.

1 - I have four kids and that has never happened to me. I'd rather have the physical game. Even though 25% of my game library is digital right now, I know that as long as my console doesn't stop working after the games are no longer able for recovery, I can play them forever.
2 - I don't care about playing at a remote location unless it is a fighting game at my friends house and he is going to have the game too so it's a moot point. Also, I really don't want to try to find an Internet connection when I do (local tournaments)... what am I going to do? Tether each system that morning so they will even work? Not convenient at ALL.
3 - This is nice. Although I like to find games before the street date, it's extremely gratifying lol
4 - When M$ decides to move on, we will have a brick as it will be completely useless. I'm sure that some group out there will figure out how to keep it going though.
5 - I feel for the developers... but honestly, I like the freedom of the used game market.

NINJA EDIT: Another problem I have with DRM and going digital is that M$/PSN and the developers will have complete control of the cost. Have you looked at the cost of most of the digital full games lately? Go check a few that are 6-months or older then go to the store and compare the shelf price for the physical media. Most often you will find the physical media is $10+ cheaper.

 

[AK-Israel]

Wow just...wow.Really "Stick with 360 if you don't have internet access".

This guy is a fucking dick

 

[Eddy Wang]

Wow just...wow.Really "Stick with 360 if you don't have internet access".

This guy is a fucking dick

Correction, "buy a PS4 instead"

 

[redrum_am]

I see that most these guys are just followers because they have an easy argument. They could say hey since your saving so much money on not having to manufacture new games with discs does it not seem logical that the price should be at least halved or even at some discounted price? Nobody brings that to the light. These people are just the normal sheeple, they do not understand the value of freedom or beliefs. I am done here! Enough has been said. Over!

 

[AK-Israel]

Yea I don't understand that,if you're going for digital distrubtion for their games instead of hard copies,then the system itself.Should be at a lower price...right??