Matchup Thread

[Dankster Morgan]

How do you guys play the Deadshot matchup?

 

[Asiacrasia]

How do you guys play the Deadshot matchup?

When they meter burn rifle, pretty sure you can punish with meter burn tentacle into trident toss. Then you can close the gap

 

[TyCarter35]

I'm new too, but I think Harley can beat Aquaman, she's one of the few characters that isn't forced to play his game, as she has a thousand ways in past his zoning tools, and she's just flat out better up close than he is.

If it's not a losing match for him, it's certainly 5/5

The key to fighting Harley's zoning tools is to bait her into ia guns since that is hella unsafe. She loses to Aquaman in the midrange. Also her guns don't do much dmg so there's that and Harley still has to be careful and not get carries away. Her only wake up is stuffable/bait but that's just what I've observed from the matchup

 

[WiseM0nkey]

Just played about 25 games against a pretty good Ivy and, IMO, it's a 5-5 MU

Reason #1: can't throw FTD cause that equals Vines + free Trait
Reason #2: She contests Aqua space pretty well with b2d2

Aqua wins on knockdown and once he gets upclose for me

She has good AAs and Air to Airs. I would go ahead and say she has better Jump normals too (at least for Air to Airs)

Either way, they both have the tools to fight evenly.... thoughts?

How do you guys play the Deadshot matchup?

one thing i found useful is to hit a mb FTD and use the advantage to try and close the gap. you sacrifice a bit of damage but you gain positioning... once you're in though you gotta make it count

 

[Shawnzzy]

I feel like Ivy beats Aquaman slightly for the same reasons you stated. She makes him have to approach because she gets free vine and trait punishing a ftd full screen. Since she has decent tools to stop a jump in or challenge his jump it makes Aquaman take risks or spend meter to get in. I do think he wins close up, but she is like deadshot where you have to make it count once you get in.
I can see the argument for 5-5, but I feel like the character who has to be the aggressor is at a natural disadvantage against a strong zoner.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Ivy wins IMO. Can't really explain right now because I'm at work but tag me if you want an explanation and I'll do it when I'm off

 

[Shawnzzy]

Ivy wins IMO. Can't really explain right now because I'm at work but tag me if you want an explanation and I'll do it when I'm off

I want to hear the analysis from the other side for sure. I labbed ivy a bit and played a few good Ivys. I thought it was a match Aqua lost as well.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Ivy wins IMO. Can't really explain right now because I'm at work but tag me if you want an explanation and I'll do it when I'm off

Definitely want an explaination Iv been getting boned by Ivy, it feels like one of the matches where I can't just do my Aquaman thing however I want.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I haven't played everyone much and I don't have numbers, but here's a rough outline of what I think some of his matchups are. Like I said I'm not putting characters I don't know.

Wins: Batman, Black Canary, Captain Cold, Darkseid, Green Arrow, Robin, Joker, Harley, Superman.

Maybe wins Fate and Deadshot, both win the zoning battle but Aquaman has the tools to get in and rapes up close, Fate especially.

Loses: MAYBE Black Adam and Ivy. Lol Aquaman is good.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

I haven't played everyone much and I don't have numbers, but here's a rough outline of what I think some of his matchups are. Like I said I'm not putting characters I don't know.

Wins: Batman, Black Canary, Captain Cold, Darkseid, Green Arrow, Robin, Joker, Harley, Superman.

Maybe wins Fate and Deadshot, both win the zoning battle but Aquaman has the tools to get in and rapes up close, Fate especially.

Loses: MAYBE Black Adam and Ivy. Lol Aquaman is good.

i think he legit loses to black adam 6-4.

deadshot and ivy are both debateable. I wanna hear from @xKhaoTik a full analysys though

EDIT: i think Lantern is even as well

 

[WiseM0nkey]

I feel like Ivy beats Aquaman slightly for the same reasons you stated. She makes him have to approach because she gets free vine and trait punishing a ftd full screen. Since she has decent tools to stop a jump in or challenge his jump it makes Aquaman take risks or spend meter to get in. I do think he wins close up, but she is like deadshot where you have to make it count once you get in.
I can see the argument for 5-5, but I feel like the character who has to be the aggressor is at a natural disadvantage against a strong zoner.

that's true though. the fact that aqua needs to go in at some point leaves him open to reads, baits and other things. the only thing that's keeping me from saying she beats him is that he completley mauls her upclose, and her only wakeup is that shitty cmnd grab.
he out damages her by a long mile also.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Ok.

For those who have played or seen the MU, you'll see that Ivy controls the pace of the Match for the most part. She can safely zone him without worrying about a punish anywhere except point blank, while she can punish his zoning with drills, meaning she can zone and counter zone him. Punishing FTD with drills is a 4f window so you have to be ready and on point. If you miss the window, he still has to respect the drill regardless. Ivy can't sit back and just drill mindlessly tho because he can definitely sneak in a FTD if she's zoning carelessly. So yea she pretty much dominates Aquaman in the keepaway department. His zoning is one of his better tools and she pretty much shuts that down.

Upclose, Aqua definitely has the advantage. OHs, Lows, mixups, good buttons, etc. All better than what she has to offer upclose. The problem is, with all the zoning she'll be doing, she's definitely gonna have meter when he gets in, meaning she's able to just roll away, pushblock or armor. She's not gonna have meter everytime but it's just a thing to worry about regardless. Either way, his upclose game is very good against her. She can compete too but his is just better. He also shits on her when it comes to oki since her wakeup is so bad. She punishes trident rush for free tho. He outdamages her but her damage isn't no slouch either, especially in the corner. Barkskin is also a HUGE problem for him in the MU since he thrives on chip and damage. Barkskin makes her take no chip at all and she has multiple ways to set it up in the MU via knockdown, blocked FTD, ducked trident toss, etc. She also takes significantly less damage overall, hurting his damage output.

Both have amazing traits, but Ivy's is more dominant than his in this MU. Her trait just makes her already effective zoning against him that much better, making it even harder for him to make a read with a counter zone attempt or even move in. Even tho his trait stops combos, he still takes increased damage thru chip, and 213/F213/121213 takes full effect of that. If she has meter, she can go right into MB Datura to continue the chip and use any ender to make it safe due to the pushback.

If aqua gets the life lead, what is he going to do? He can't just sit back because she'll chip him with safe zoning. He can't zone because it's punishable anywhere on the screen. He has no choice but to stay on the offense. Aqua is a strong offensive and defensive character but her tools makes his defense almost non existent, making him stay on the offense. All she has to do is score a knockdown and she can play her game, whether she has the life lead or not.


TL;DR: She zones him strongly but has to be smart with it. Barkskin hurts his damage output since she takes less damage AND no chip. Her trait makes the zoning that much better and his counter attempts that much harder, while his trait makes her not get combos but she capitalizes with safe damaging chip. He bullies her upclose and on knockdown.

I would say 6-4 Ivy AT WORST. He can still check her with FTDs since they are faster than drills, trait is still a good tool and he wins upclose.


Also if that doesn't help, Theo uses superman against dragon. That should say something

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Ok.

For those who have played or seen the MU, you'll see that Ivy controls the pace of the Match for the most part. She can safely zone him without worrying about a punish anywhere except point blank, while she can punish his zoning with drills, meaning she can zone and counter zone him. Punishing FTD with drills is a 4f window so you have to be ready and on point. If you miss the window, he still has to respect the drill regardless. Ivy can't sit back and just drill mindlessly tho because he can definitely sneak in a FTD if she's zoning carelessly. So yea she pretty much dominates Aquaman in the keepaway department. His zoning is one of his better tools and she pretty much shuts that down.

Upclose, Aqua definitely has the advantage. OHs, Lows, mixups, good buttons, etc. All better than what she has to offer upclose. The problem is, with all the zoning she'll be doing, she's definitely gonna have meter when he gets in, meaning she's able to just roll away, pushblock or armor. She's not gonna have meter everytime but it's just a thing to worry about regardless. Either way, his upclose game is very good against her. She can compete too but his is just better. He also shits on her when it comes to oki since her wakeup is so bad. She punishes trident rush for free tho. He outdamages her but he damage isn't no slouch either, especially in the corner. Barkskin is also a HUGE problem for him in the MU since he thrives on chip and damage. Barkskin makes her take no chip at all and she has multiple ways to set it up in the MU via knockdown, blocked FTD, ducked trident toss, etc. She also takes significantly less damage overall, hurting his damage output.

Both have amazing traits, but Ivy's is more dominant than his in this MU. Her trait just makes her already effective zoning against him that much better, making it even harder for him to make a read with a counter zone attempt or even move in. Even tho his trait stops combos, he still takes increased damage thru chip, and 213/F213/121213 takes full effect of that. If she has meter, she can go right into MB Datura to continue the chip and use any ender to make it safe due to the pushback.

If aqua gets the life lead, what is he going to do? He can't just sit back because she'll chip him with safe zoning. He can't zone because it's punishable anywhere on the screen. He has no choice but to stay on the offense. Aqua is a strong offensive and defensive character but her tools makes his defense almost non existent, making him stay on the offense. All she has to do is score a knockdown and she can play her game, whether she has the life lead or not.


TL;DR: She zones him strongly but has to be smart with it. Barkskin hurts his damage output since she takes less damage AND no chip. Her trait makes the zoning that much better and his counter attempts that much harder, while his trait makes her not get combos but she capitalizes with safe damaging chip. He bullies her upclose and on knockdown.

I would say 6-4 Ivy AT WORST. He can still check her with FTDs since they are faster than drills, trait is still a good tool and he wins upclose.


Also if that doesn't help, Theo uses superman against dragon. That should say something

I agree, if it wasn't for bark skin I'd say it'd be almost even, but that takes away one of his better strengths. Still manageable for Aquaman though, both players have to be on point, even though she wins she can't just cheese it out.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

So, aquaman wins against 80% of the cast but loses against the other 20%, which are the ones everybody at high level uses?

 

[Ricky_Tick_Russ]

How do you guys play the Deadshot matchup?

From full screen. Watch RHS from 06/04/17. You'll see Dragon run the match against an American DS player and wreck him. Then, he runs the match with Foxy. Foxy plays from mid screen and dominates the set. It helped me in my local weekly. Lost the first match, took some time to think about what I saw on Sunday, then ran it back three straight matches.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

Ok.

For those who have played or seen the MU, you'll see that Ivy controls the pace of the Match for the most part. She can safely zone him without worrying about a punish anywhere except point blank, while she can punish his zoning with drills, meaning she can zone and counter zone him. Punishing FTD with drills is a 4f window so you have to be ready and on point. If you miss the window, he still has to respect the drill regardless. Ivy can't sit back and just drill mindlessly tho because he can definitely sneak in a FTD if she's zoning carelessly. So yea she pretty much dominates Aquaman in the keepaway department. His zoning is one of his better tools and she pretty much shuts that down.

Upclose, Aqua definitely has the advantage. OHs, Lows, mixups, good buttons, etc. All better than what she has to offer upclose. The problem is, with all the zoning she'll be doing, she's definitely gonna have meter when he gets in, meaning she's able to just roll away, pushblock or armor. She's not gonna have meter everytime but it's just a thing to worry about regardless. Either way, his upclose game is very good against her. She can compete too but his is just better. He also shits on her when it comes to oki since her wakeup is so bad. She punishes trident rush for free tho. He outdamages her but her damage isn't no slouch either, especially in the corner. Barkskin is also a HUGE problem for him in the MU since he thrives on chip and damage. Barkskin makes her take no chip at all and she has multiple ways to set it up in the MU via knockdown, blocked FTD, ducked trident toss, etc. She also takes significantly less damage overall, hurting his damage output.

Both have amazing traits, but Ivy's is more dominant than his in this MU. Her trait just makes her already effective zoning against him that much better, making it even harder for him to make a read with a counter zone attempt or even move in. Even tho his trait stops combos, he still takes increased damage thru chip, and 213/F213/121213 takes full effect of that. If she has meter, she can go right into MB Datura to continue the chip and use any ender to make it safe due to the pushback.

If aqua gets the life lead, what is he going to do? He can't just sit back because she'll chip him with safe zoning. He can't zone because it's punishable anywhere on the screen. He has no choice but to stay on the offense. Aqua is a strong offensive and defensive character but her tools makes his defense almost non existent, making him stay on the offense. All she has to do is score a knockdown and she can play her game, whether she has the life lead or not.


TL;DR: She zones him strongly but has to be smart with it. Barkskin hurts his damage output since she takes less damage AND no chip. Her trait makes the zoning that much better and his counter attempts that much harder, while his trait makes her not get combos but she capitalizes with safe damaging chip. He bullies her upclose and on knockdown.

I would say 6-4 Ivy AT WORST. He can still check her with FTDs since they are faster than drills, trait is still a good tool and he wins upclose.


Also if that doesn't help, Theo uses superman against dragon. That should say something

I agree with everything you just said. Aquaman is a strong character, yeah, but FUCK this matchup sucks for him. She essentially has a 20% trident rush (trait) vs his 15% trident rush. She wins in chip, zoning, turtling, and comeback factor. The only reason this MU is slightly winnable for Aquaman is the upclose neutral in the corner, but its just so damn hard to take her and contain her there to begin with if the Ivy player is smart about meter management.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

Alright I'm sold.

Aqua loses to Ivy

 

[WiseM0nkey]

wow i never thought catwoman would be so aids to fight. as soon as she gets in the mid range you have to watch out for sweep / j2 / cat dash / b3 (and armor b3). also cat dash punishes ftd clean from 3/4 screen.

shits rough, what do you think?

@EMPEROR_THEO @Dankster Morgan @Shawnzzy @A F0xy Grampa and i would like to hear starcharger and semij too, but i dont know their tym nick.

 

[Ben Reed]

Main thing I hate about the Catwoman matchup is how surprisingly hard it is to punish Cat Dash/MB on block. Despite being -13 to -16, the blockstun is so deceptive that you have to buffer your b1/22 early as HELL to punish. Sucks cause the footsies are surprisingly involved in that match, so you absolutely need on-point punishes on stuff like Cat Dash to pull far enough ahead to be safe.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

Main thing I hate about the Catwoman matchup is how surprisingly hard it is to punish Cat Dash/MB on block. Despite being -13 to -16, the blockstun is so deceptive that you have to buffer your b1/22 early as HELL to punish. Sucks cause the footsies are surprisingly involved in that match, so you absolutely need on-point punishes on stuff like Cat Dash to pull far enough ahead to be safe.

Yeah, its like reptile dash. No blockstun whatsoever, you basically have to make a read in order to punish lol

 

[Jowabunga]

Other than Ivy, who else do you feel like Aquaman loses to?

 

[Shawnzzy]

wow i never thought catwoman would be so aids to fight. as soon as she gets in the mid range you have to watch out for sweep / j2 / cat dash / b3 (and armor b3). also cat dash punishes ftd clean from 3/4 screen.

shits rough, what do you think?

@EMPEROR_THEO @Dankster Morgan @Shawnzzy @A F0xy Grampa and i would like to hear starcharger and semij too, but i dont know their tym nick.

I'v e only got to play this match up online because there aren't any strong cat woman players in my scene. From my limited experience it felt rough because that dash kills his zoning anywhere but full screen. Honestly, my approach to the match up is hella simple, try to stay about sweep distance and whiff punish. Like I said though, that's mainly me not knowing the match well enough to give a more full proof strategy.

 

[T-box88]

I honestly feel black atom is favored against him. Ex lightning cant be reversed punsished and does good chip. Atom can launch meterlessley when playing footsies (we cant). Trait isnt that great against him cuz he does awesome chip already with trait cancels and does HELLA chip when aquas trait is up (with the new way it works) trying to avoid a combo. If atom jumps and you whiff from the deep he can easily dk on reaction for 50%+ dmg. And because he outzones aqua i always feel like im chasing him constantly (what he wants) its really hard. And with his fancy new f12 string his normal reaches as far as ours and its faster.

 

[T-box88]

Main thing I hate about the Catwoman matchup is how surprisingly hard it is to punish Cat Dash/MB on block. Despite being -13 to -16, the blockstun is so deceptive that you have to buffer your b1/22 early as HELL to punish. Sucks cause the footsies are surprisingly involved in that match, so you absolutely need on-point punishes on stuff like Cat Dash to pull far enough ahead to be safe.

Cant you do d1 from the deep to punish? Should be hella easy cuz its 6 frames.

 

[T-box88]

Only losing match-ups so far in my opinion that I've played would probably be Ivy and possibly Attrocitus?
Deadshot is difficult since you can't punish anything with from the deep, you usually just trade but if he has blue bullets well then you're back to full screen where you don't wanna be. I don't however think it's a losing match-up, probably even.

Black Adam is really bad for Aquaman I'd say. Black Adam is just bullshit in general for most of the cast, easily top 3.

Otherwise Aquaman is pretty solid

To be fair, a man's most likely top 5. Hes bullshit too lol