Lord Raiden General Discussion Thread

[Mandolore1123]

At this point I feel like he's mostly good. He's got two solid variations in V1 and V2 which compliment each other. Mostly I'd just hope for minor changes:

1. Fix S3 (this goes for pretty much the entire cast). Adjust the hitbox so you can actually jail into it for block pressure, which seems to be what it was designed for. Otherwise the way things are right now S3 is useless.
2. I'd prefer if D1 or D3 could reliably jail into S1. To me that should be a universal tool that all characters are able to do. Again, this could likely be fixed with a hitbox adjustment.

May I ask your rationale for point 2, beyond it just being a universal thing you’d like to see for the cast? Not trying to bash, I just never really thought about jailing highs because we have good mids to jail into too.

 

[Marlow]

May I ask your rationale for point 2, beyond it just being a universal thing you’d like to see for the cast? Not trying to bash, I just never really thought about jailing highs because we have good mids to jail into too.

I think it helps add and enforce a basic fundamental gameplay aspect. S1 strings are fairly standard, not a ton of reward/damage compared to other strings, but normally fairly safe. Being able to jail something like D3 into S121 means Raiden could either hit confirm 12 into a combo ender, or finish the string to stay safe. I think a lot of characters would benefit from having that universal setup.

You're right though, it's not like Raiden can't jail into his mids. I just think being able to jail into S1 is a nice middle ground, where it's slightly easier to execute and slightly safer, but with a lower reward. I suppose you could always compensate by making mids slightly more unsafe or slower (get rid of all 9f mids imo), just to make it more of a clear distinction between them.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I think it helps add and enforce a basic fundamental gameplay aspect. S1 strings are fairly standard, not a ton of reward/damage compared to other strings, but normally fairly safe. Being able to jail something like D3 into S121 means Raiden could either hit confirm 12 into a combo ender, or finish the string to stay safe. I think a lot of characters would benefit from having that universal setup.

You're right though, it's not like Raiden can't jail into his mids. I just think being able to jail into S1 is a nice middle ground, where it's slightly easier to execute and slightly safer, but with a lower reward. I suppose you could always compensate by making mids slightly more unsafe or slower (get rid of all 9f mids imo), just to make it more of a clear distinction between them.

Fair point. Being able to stagger a jailed S1 into throw is also pretty nice

 

[Mandolore1123]

@Marlow Perhaps it’d be better to adjust S2 then? So it jails easier and leads into 243, rather than adjust the hit box of S1 and might hinder its anti-air properties?

 

[Marlow]

Good point, any system change likely has further consequences down the line. I'd be fine with that. If S2 is easier to jail off of D3 it'd fit in well. That way D1 works to gain back a turn, D3 allows a jail into a S2 strings, and S1 strings can be relegated to punishes.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I really wish they’d remove the OSes too. And buff BF1 a tiny bit more, and buff B14, fix the hit boxes too. Fingers crossed for future announcements/patch day...

 

[Szkarad]

First of all BF1 absolutely needs to be fixed so it hits crouch-blocking opponents who have small hitbox instead of whiffing. I don't even consider it a buff, but a fix. Also I wish B2 was decent. Right now it has the worst speed-to-range ratio in the game and no decent player will allow you to get the KB. It should be about 13f and launch for ~20% meterless/~30% with meter IMO. Or have better range or be safe. Anything. Scorpion did get his overhead button buffed so I don't know why wont they give Raiden the same treatment

 

[Marlow]

I'm fine with his B2 as is. Maybe add a bit more range, but I think it's solid. It's double hitting, has a ton of active frames. I actually think the best way to improve it's utility would be to get rid of the B31 gap, and let B312+4 catch breakaways. That way Raiden has a bit better, but very fair, mix. B2 should mostly be used as an ender anyways, to set up the KB, which gives Raiden a really nice situational high damage 50/50.

 

[Szkarad]

Problem is b2 is so slow that you can't confirm whether or not they'll delay wakeup and if they do they get a full punish.
Btw. I heard they are going to nerf delay wakeups so maybe then it'll be better

 

[Mandolore1123]

B2 is fine. The KB is fine.

 

[Szkarad]

You think so? IMO it might just be Raiden's worst button and one of the worse buttons in the game
☑ jab range
☑ 19f startup
☑ KB impossible to get against decent players
☑ full combo punish on block/whiff
☑ low reward
Compare it to other similiar one-button overheads, like Scorpion's, Jax's, Erron's, even having in mind that Raiden isn't a 50/50 vortex type of char

 

[Mandolore1123]

You think so? IMO it might just be Raiden's worst button and one of the worse buttons in the game
☑ jab range
☑ 19f startup
☑ KB impossible to get against decent players
☑ full combo punish on block/whiff
☑ low reward
Compare it to other similiar one-button overheads, like Scorpion's, Jax's, Erron's, even having in mind that Raiden isn't a 50/50 vortex type of char

S3 has worse range
same startup as SZ’s overhead
KB isn’t impossible, and moreover the entire point is to threaten it and make people panic so you can punish their panic wake-ups or rolls, which is why there’s an emphasis to end combos with it.

It’s not a very good button by any means, but it does its job, and it’s far from being Raiden’s worst button, and further still from being one of the worst in the game

 

[Szkarad]

You can find some succes with hitting S3 after a J2

 

[Mandolore1123]

You can find some succes with hitting S3 after a J2

Sure, if you’re referring to landing J2 on hit then any button works afterwards. However there are many other easier ways to set up B2 at the end of combos, which start with much better normals to hit confirm than just getting an S3.

My point is, I see many people saying that the KB is worthless because it seems to never land, but I would argue that the entire point of the KB is to act as a way to make the opponent panic, and do something stupid that Raiden can then punish. I wouldn’t use B2 regularly in most situations, I just throw it in once in a while just to remind them it exists, and more often than not people will panic and try to stop you from getting that second B2 at all costs, and it’s a good way to just wait and see how people react to these situations. If they like to panic and press something then you can adjust and punish accordingly.

 

[Marlow]

If anything I feel like B4 is his worst button. B2 at least has a purpose. I still don't know what to ever use B4 for.

 

[Mandolore1123]

If anything I feel like B4 is his worst button. B2 at least has a purpose. I still don't know what to ever use B4 for.

End screen dances and input errors for the win

 

[Marlow]

B4 is the count coup move of MK. http://aktalakota.stjo.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8666

 

[Mandolore1123]

How do you guys deal with super annoyingly good D4s? I’m at a loss at how to approach. Does F11 work? I worry that D4s will just punish under the first hit, or characters with a low projectile like Cassie/Sindel can low profile it. I’ve also tried to bait and punish but often times I’m too slow to really react or I’m too far away to punish with F4. Any tips?
(I know I can jump but like Raiden’s JI2 is pretty poop so I’d appreciate other more grounded solutions )

 

[Marlow]

How do you guys deal with super annoyingly good D4s? I’m at a loss at how to approach. Does F11 work? I worry that D4s will just punish under the first hit, or characters with a low projectile like Cassie/Sindel can low profile it. I’ve also tried to bait and punish but often times I’m too slow to really react or I’m too far away to punish with F4. Any tips?
(I know I can jump but like Raiden’s JI2 is pretty poop so I’d appreciate other more grounded solutions )

Is there a specific character or two you have in mind?

 

[Mandolore1123]

Is there a specific character or two you have in mind?

Not really, just characters that have very good D4s like Jade or joker. The range is a bit frustrating to deal with.

 

[Marlow]

Raiden has one of the better walk back speeds, so bait and punish would be my first thought. I'd be too worried that F11 would get low profiled. Depending what variation you're playing and how the matchup plays out, you could try keeping back and keeping them in check with Lightning Strike.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Raiden has one of the better walk back speeds, so bait and punish would be my first thought. I'd be too worried that F11 would get low profiled. Depending what variation you're playing and how the matchup plays out, you could try keeping back and keeping them in check with Lightning Strike.

I guess, I just feel especially frustrated when opponents do dash up D4 which messes up my walking game a lot, and I always seem just a tad too slow to whiff punish when they misspace a D4

 

[Marlow]

Just play as Truth & Light and limit their movement with amped electric rod. You’ll lose, but at least it won’t be because of D4.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Just play as Truth & Light and limit their movement with amped electric rod. You’ll lose, but at least it won’t be because of D4.

I’m sticking to Raijin thank you. Though yolo DB4AMP can only get me so far before I get punished haha

 

[Darth Mao]

It's hard to deal with some normals in this game, usually the solution is to space and punish with f4. But there are "cases" and "cases". Joker's d4, for example, is -13 on block without pushback so you can punish with b1. F11 never work cause f1 is high. I think that there isn't a "concrete solution", it's more a matter of reading. Depending on the opponent, even Hop 3 [or 4] can handle the situation.